RAF "Utterly, Utterly, Useless" in Afghanistan
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flashy, there was a time when a Commissioned Officer considered the words on his/her Commissioning Scroll. The chap who leaked this needs to seriously look at his respssnibilities.
Personally, Queenie signed something that appears to retain it's relevence.
Personally, Queenie signed something that appears to retain it's relevence.
Last edited by London Mil; 23rd Sep 2006 at 06:34.
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Major Loden is no doubt under a lot of stress, but if he wants to let off steam (as we all do from time to time) he might want to do it in private, not by email! The last time I was in Afghanistan, we suffered many problems caused by Army interference in the light blue environment. Instead of moaning by email I kept it to slagging them off in the 12 x 12 with the boys!
Surely as a Major (and according to a report Company Commander) he isn't naive enough to think his comments wouldn't be reproduced and re-broadcast. If this was in a private email, it's grossly unfair to him to have it published in the public forum. If however, he's included them in a UPREP or SITREP, he has been a trifle hysterical and naive.
Does anybody else sense a bit of politics going on in the background at MOD? How does this get leaked, who leaks it and with what agenda?
Hope Task Force Butler keeps doing the job! Well done fellas!
Surely as a Major (and according to a report Company Commander) he isn't naive enough to think his comments wouldn't be reproduced and re-broadcast. If this was in a private email, it's grossly unfair to him to have it published in the public forum. If however, he's included them in a UPREP or SITREP, he has been a trifle hysterical and naive.
Does anybody else sense a bit of politics going on in the background at MOD? How does this get leaked, who leaks it and with what agenda?
Hope Task Force Butler keeps doing the job! Well done fellas!
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What most people seem to forget in the media is that these e-mails are from somebody who is there in the thick of it.
Those comments about a single "junior officer" to me sound quite disparaging. If he is a Colonel, Major or 2Lt he has earned his commission and his integrity should not be questioned.
It is unfortunate that his e-mails have ended up in the media, however he is there and knows exactly what is happening in his area of responsibilty.
It is unfortunate that he feels let down by the RAF and I am sure if he was to meet the jocks of the local Sqn he would know exactly how serious and professional they take their job.
However I feel that he must be forgiven for his comments for two reasons,
The liason between the RAF and Army has been for years neglected and only recently have all ranks begun to understand the importance of the all arms battle.
Secondly, how often have posts been started by members of the RAF regarding the procurement and armament of a/c. The Harrier amongst other things is a Ground Support a/c. It doesn't have a gun and cannot straff, this is a great moral booster for the Toms especially when the jets cannot drop.
A possibility why he would rather have the A10.
It is great that the gloves are finally being allowed off and the ROE have been changed by the politicians and their sycophantic lackeys, to allow troops to take on the Taliban.
Give him a break, we all know it is a difficult job and his e-mails may have been picked and edited by the media.
Those comments about a single "junior officer" to me sound quite disparaging. If he is a Colonel, Major or 2Lt he has earned his commission and his integrity should not be questioned.
It is unfortunate that his e-mails have ended up in the media, however he is there and knows exactly what is happening in his area of responsibilty.
It is unfortunate that he feels let down by the RAF and I am sure if he was to meet the jocks of the local Sqn he would know exactly how serious and professional they take their job.
However I feel that he must be forgiven for his comments for two reasons,
The liason between the RAF and Army has been for years neglected and only recently have all ranks begun to understand the importance of the all arms battle.
Secondly, how often have posts been started by members of the RAF regarding the procurement and armament of a/c. The Harrier amongst other things is a Ground Support a/c. It doesn't have a gun and cannot straff, this is a great moral booster for the Toms especially when the jets cannot drop.
A possibility why he would rather have the A10.
It is great that the gloves are finally being allowed off and the ROE have been changed by the politicians and their sycophantic lackeys, to allow troops to take on the Taliban.
Give him a break, we all know it is a difficult job and his e-mails may have been picked and edited by the media.
Last edited by The Otter's Pocket; 22nd Sep 2006 at 18:55.
The person putting the "'One team. One fight." concept at risk is the good major, by describing his fellow professionals as "Utterly, Utterly, Useless". Especially when he does so on the basis of his impression of the Harrier's capabilities in strafe (they don't do strafe) and in delivering WP (they don't seem to have WP).
And this single junior officer isn't having his integrity questioned, nor his cojones. Just his judgement and his knowledge of air support.
And this single junior officer isn't having his integrity questioned, nor his cojones. Just his judgement and his knowledge of air support.
What has this major done wrong? How many times have we, as aviators, slagged off ATC, our wingman, handbrake house etc for not doing there job. He is out there undertaking a fairly stressful job and has let off steam in a private e-mail, which I am assuming was to a so-called mate of his. This so-called mate has then circulated the private e-mail within his own circle of friends, without James' knowledge, and subsequently been leaked to the press.
I'm sure the first James knew about the 5hit hitting the fan was when it hit Sky News etc, and I suspect he had a no-coffee chat with his Boss (in between firefights, obviously!). He doesn't need his name up in lights at a time like this and I honestly believe that it was not his intent for his comments to hit the Press.
And yes I'm Air Force. I've also seen copy of the entire e-mail. Some of the context is missing in the edited highlights as are some of his other comments about his own Service (AAC) and the Coalition. I think one of his so-called mates of a mate has a personal agenda and damn the consequences for James. And no I didn't leak the e-mail (before you ask) and no I'm not going to publish anymore than is already in the printed media.
Give the guy a break - any witch hunt should be for the tw*t who leaked the memo. Once identified a swift 2 year OOA tour in Afghanistan as a FAC should be suitable "punishment"!
James - you need to get yourself a trip in the back of a Harrier when you're safely back in UK to see the picture from their side of the trigger. There was at least one person who spent the previous 12 months or so in the same purple sausage machine as you who may be able to help out!
And if you've got a beef trust in the chain of command. Didn't you learn anything last year!!!
I'm sure the first James knew about the 5hit hitting the fan was when it hit Sky News etc, and I suspect he had a no-coffee chat with his Boss (in between firefights, obviously!). He doesn't need his name up in lights at a time like this and I honestly believe that it was not his intent for his comments to hit the Press.
And yes I'm Air Force. I've also seen copy of the entire e-mail. Some of the context is missing in the edited highlights as are some of his other comments about his own Service (AAC) and the Coalition. I think one of his so-called mates of a mate has a personal agenda and damn the consequences for James. And no I didn't leak the e-mail (before you ask) and no I'm not going to publish anymore than is already in the printed media.
Give the guy a break - any witch hunt should be for the tw*t who leaked the memo. Once identified a swift 2 year OOA tour in Afghanistan as a FAC should be suitable "punishment"!
James - you need to get yourself a trip in the back of a Harrier when you're safely back in UK to see the picture from their side of the trigger. There was at least one person who spent the previous 12 months or so in the same purple sausage machine as you who may be able to help out!
And if you've got a beef trust in the chain of command. Didn't you learn anything last year!!!
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Wrathmonk
Private email? I don't think so; more like an email from mil terminal, using mil bandwidth, to a mil eddress. Therefore, I suggest that the good major is now learning a hard lesson on the need to think before slagging on a non-private system.
I appreciate that he and his men are having a bad time of it but if he thinks that being factually wrong and slagging his sister service is going to make his job easier then I doubt he is the man for the Coy Cdr job.
As for the leaker - prepare to be a civie, asshole.
Sky News - well, would anyone have expected bottom-feeders to do anything different.
RM
Private email? I don't think so; more like an email from mil terminal, using mil bandwidth, to a mil eddress. Therefore, I suggest that the good major is now learning a hard lesson on the need to think before slagging on a non-private system.
I appreciate that he and his men are having a bad time of it but if he thinks that being factually wrong and slagging his sister service is going to make his job easier then I doubt he is the man for the Coy Cdr job.
As for the leaker - prepare to be a civie, asshole.
Sky News - well, would anyone have expected bottom-feeders to do anything different.
RM
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I am not an air warfare specialist, but could somebody tell me why the latest Harrier GR7 cannot strafe???? It is suppose to be a Ground Attack Aircraft. Why was it not fitted with a bloody big gun that would scare the crap out of anybody on the ground that was on the receiving end of it? A big cannon strafing the battlefield will surly have a huge psychological effect on the enemy.
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I am not an air warfare specialist, but could somebody tell me why the latest Harrier GR7 cannot strafe???? It is suppose to be a Ground Attack Aircraft. Why was it not fitted with a bloody big gun that would scare the crap out of anybody on the ground that was on the receiving end of it? A big cannon strafing the battlefield will surly have a huge psychological effect on the enemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADEN_cannon
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PompeySailor
Thanks for that. Very interesting.
Can I assume that our military experts in the MOD agreed that a cannon was not essential for a ground attack aircraft and therefore did not consider an alternative gun. I suppose they were able to produce some statistics that showed that cannons have been a complete waste of time in the history of air warfare. Maybe they still had their “only need a missile that can hit a target 100 miles away” head on.
Thanks for that. Very interesting.
Can I assume that our military experts in the MOD agreed that a cannon was not essential for a ground attack aircraft and therefore did not consider an alternative gun. I suppose they were able to produce some statistics that showed that cannons have been a complete waste of time in the history of air warfare. Maybe they still had their “only need a missile that can hit a target 100 miles away” head on.
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PompeySailor
Thanks for that. Very interesting.
Can I assume that our military experts in the MOD agreed that a cannon was not essential for a ground attack aircraft and therefore did not consider an alternative gun. I suppose they were able to produce some statistics that showed that cannons have been a complete waste of time in the history of air warfare. Maybe they still had their “only need a missile that can hit a target 100 miles away” head on.
Thanks for that. Very interesting.
Can I assume that our military experts in the MOD agreed that a cannon was not essential for a ground attack aircraft and therefore did not consider an alternative gun. I suppose they were able to produce some statistics that showed that cannons have been a complete waste of time in the history of air warfare. Maybe they still had their “only need a missile that can hit a target 100 miles away” head on.
We have watched, from three different standpoints, the Armed Services of this country be reduced, misemployed, under-funded, and vilified by an ill-informed press and a public that doesn't really understand us. And I think that we are almost at the point where it is too late. We are not recruiting enough, we are not receiving enough funding, and we are being used in places, and for jobs, that we should not be used. Foot and Mouth, Fireman's Strikes, our medical staff being used as free labour on the training wards in Birmingham to cover up the Governmental failings in the NHS in that area.
The media are more concerned with seeing us as an easy story - we do things and go to places that journos are quick to tell us they go to as well - but we don't go on their wages, with their insurance policies, or their ability to put their hands up and say "I'm a journo, get me out of here." This story shows the lengths that they will go to to misreport a story to try and divide the Services - but if you look at ARRSE and on here, that has not happened. A common enemy has stuck it's head above the parapet, and no-one will turn down the chance to take a shot at a journo!
We need to be given a public voice which has the backbone to stand up and tell the journos to sod off - to take the parts of the emails which the media ignore and to hold them up for public scrutiny - the lack of funding, the lack of support, the constraints everything else that we have to deal with on a daily basis. When the GR7 pilot is on task, but he hasn't been paid that month, or he knows that the kit he flies is as good as it can be, but not as good as he would like it to be, or when the Tom on the front line is scared ****less because he doesn't know if he will be CMd or shot, their needs to be someone that really looks out for us - and the Chain of Command is now so intertwined with the political machinations in London, SW1 that it no longer serves that purpose.
Radar Muppet
I bow to your superior knowledge on the background to the e-mail. I only have copy of the cut and paste text (albeit that was circulated on a mil account).
However I still stand by my comment that I believe it was intended as a private e-mail and I firmly believe it was sent originally from a non-mil account to a non-mil account (even if it was over bandwidth provided by the Op Welfare package) - IMHO that makes it private. In a similar way are Blueys that are carried out to the Falkland Islands or to the Middle East by mil charter private or not?
He is entitled to his private views - you may or may not agree with them, nor the private method he chose to raise them. That still does not make what he says wrong. Sadly, I fear, were he to now raise them formally through post op reporting it would be dismissed as an attempt to get back in the Colonels good books!
Again, who here has not made critical comment of somebody elses performance? How much slagging off do we (and by that I mean aircrew) do of RAFP, movers, stackers, scope dopes, truckie navs smelling of wee, gwars etc etc. Have you never been OOA and set an e-mail home saying "so and so is a to55er". If James had said the RAFP are utterly utterly useless, barrier up, barrier down, which end of the chain are the brains, jobsworth gits etc there would have been pages of support for him.
The lesson he has actually learnt is to choose his friends wisely. Or perhaps we need to go back to the WW1 / WW2 era where all letters are checked by someone further up the food chain and censored accordingly. Remove all internet access that'll stop the whinging. Confiscate the mobile phones and hide the Blueys.
I find it interesting that over on that other site there is, overall, support for both him and the Harrier mates. I will agree though that the "whistle blower" may be sleeping with one eye open for a few months yet. Hopefully it will all blow over (though I'm not helping by keep bringing it to the top!)
I bow to your superior knowledge on the background to the e-mail. I only have copy of the cut and paste text (albeit that was circulated on a mil account).
However I still stand by my comment that I believe it was intended as a private e-mail and I firmly believe it was sent originally from a non-mil account to a non-mil account (even if it was over bandwidth provided by the Op Welfare package) - IMHO that makes it private. In a similar way are Blueys that are carried out to the Falkland Islands or to the Middle East by mil charter private or not?
He is entitled to his private views - you may or may not agree with them, nor the private method he chose to raise them. That still does not make what he says wrong. Sadly, I fear, were he to now raise them formally through post op reporting it would be dismissed as an attempt to get back in the Colonels good books!
Again, who here has not made critical comment of somebody elses performance? How much slagging off do we (and by that I mean aircrew) do of RAFP, movers, stackers, scope dopes, truckie navs smelling of wee, gwars etc etc. Have you never been OOA and set an e-mail home saying "so and so is a to55er". If James had said the RAFP are utterly utterly useless, barrier up, barrier down, which end of the chain are the brains, jobsworth gits etc there would have been pages of support for him.
The lesson he has actually learnt is to choose his friends wisely. Or perhaps we need to go back to the WW1 / WW2 era where all letters are checked by someone further up the food chain and censored accordingly. Remove all internet access that'll stop the whinging. Confiscate the mobile phones and hide the Blueys.
I find it interesting that over on that other site there is, overall, support for both him and the Harrier mates. I will agree though that the "whistle blower" may be sleeping with one eye open for a few months yet. Hopefully it will all blow over (though I'm not helping by keep bringing it to the top!)
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PompeySailor
I will have a beer and a chat with you anytime.
The problem is that we are taken for granted by our lords and masters. They are the ones that have taken advantage of the can do attitude of forces so they can suck up and make cutback after cutback whilst they appear to get the results. We are trying to fight a major war (on two fronts) with half a dozen aircraft & helicopters to support a large amount of troops who need more.
This is not a game anymore where just by flying the (political) British flag we achieve results. This is real and we need more both in terms of hardware and manpower if we are ever going to achieve this mission.
We (our lords and masters) have made this mistake so many times in the past – let’s not make it again. People on the ground in Afgan are trying to tell the higher lot - All is not right.
I will have a beer and a chat with you anytime.
The problem is that we are taken for granted by our lords and masters. They are the ones that have taken advantage of the can do attitude of forces so they can suck up and make cutback after cutback whilst they appear to get the results. We are trying to fight a major war (on two fronts) with half a dozen aircraft & helicopters to support a large amount of troops who need more.
This is not a game anymore where just by flying the (political) British flag we achieve results. This is real and we need more both in terms of hardware and manpower if we are ever going to achieve this mission.
We (our lords and masters) have made this mistake so many times in the past – let’s not make it again. People on the ground in Afgan are trying to tell the higher lot - All is not right.
I am not an air warfare specialist, but could somebody tell me why the latest Harrier GR7 cannot strafe???? It is suppose to be a Ground Attack Aircraft. Why was it not fitted with a bloody big gun that would scare the crap out of anybody on the ground that was on the receiving end of it? A big cannon strafing the battlefield will surly have a huge psychological effect on the enemy.
However, it still needs the gun pods (or strakes) in order to help it hover...
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Sweet mother of all things holy.
What exactly does he expect to achieve? What exactly does he think the lads are doing right now? Surely he can't blame his own can he. Oh no, the FAC would never pass the wrong details. Does anyone actually think that the RAF are doing it on purpose? Why does the RAF have one of the most exceptional reputations in THE world? It beggars belief as to why such a damning email was released, by a 'mate' or whoever.
But what I like even less, is how the media have jumped on the bandwagon so much? Cheers everyone. Yes, you've got your headline grabber for the next day or so, and maybe earned a bonus, but what on earth will the guys and gals in light blue think?
Barstewards. Utter barstewards. I'm not going to say any more for the moment as its friday night and the bar has been open. Needless to say, the blood pressure is a few notches higher. From where I sit, the boys and girls, as ever, are doing a fantastic job. Its just a pity that someone somewhere feels the need to vent his spleen so publically.
SS, red in the face
What exactly does he expect to achieve? What exactly does he think the lads are doing right now? Surely he can't blame his own can he. Oh no, the FAC would never pass the wrong details. Does anyone actually think that the RAF are doing it on purpose? Why does the RAF have one of the most exceptional reputations in THE world? It beggars belief as to why such a damning email was released, by a 'mate' or whoever.
But what I like even less, is how the media have jumped on the bandwagon so much? Cheers everyone. Yes, you've got your headline grabber for the next day or so, and maybe earned a bonus, but what on earth will the guys and gals in light blue think?
Barstewards. Utter barstewards. I'm not going to say any more for the moment as its friday night and the bar has been open. Needless to say, the blood pressure is a few notches higher. From where I sit, the boys and girls, as ever, are doing a fantastic job. Its just a pity that someone somewhere feels the need to vent his spleen so publically.
SS, red in the face
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Tell you what, it shouldn't be Sky getting all the grief, the state funded BBC are the ones trumpetting this anti-RAF rubbish out of context, and causing a damn sight more damage than the Sky article, which seems to be concentrating more on under-resourcing and under funding!
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The Harriers had a large number of gun pods built for the Aden 25 but it was never a success. When there was a tried and tested American gun available it's beyond comprehension why they even tried! As for the Harrier - do you really want to be at low level firing a cannon when they can quite happily return fire at you! Far better to have an element of safety and use rockets and bombs.
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What really Pi**es me off is :
1. Not that,the said Major may be disatisfied with the air support he gets, fair comment, but it is the fact he blames the RAF, its not their fault , it is the fault of government for not providing proper assets to do the job.
2. He obviously does not know the art of the possible (straffing without guns).
3. That the real gripe is, why has the press latched onto this story, when the slightest bit of informed comment would put it into context and make it not be worthy of comment.
4. Why has the BBC and Sky put it at the top of their bullitens, hour after hour, when anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see it is one pi88ed off (and uninformed) voice venting steam .
5. Will the editors for Sky and BBC please reply as to why this uninformed story gets priority over the truth?
For all the RAF guys out in AF, ignore it, you are all doing the biz and if one numpty in a thousand says different, listen to the other 999.
1. Not that,the said Major may be disatisfied with the air support he gets, fair comment, but it is the fact he blames the RAF, its not their fault , it is the fault of government for not providing proper assets to do the job.
2. He obviously does not know the art of the possible (straffing without guns).
3. That the real gripe is, why has the press latched onto this story, when the slightest bit of informed comment would put it into context and make it not be worthy of comment.
4. Why has the BBC and Sky put it at the top of their bullitens, hour after hour, when anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see it is one pi88ed off (and uninformed) voice venting steam .
5. Will the editors for Sky and BBC please reply as to why this uninformed story gets priority over the truth?
For all the RAF guys out in AF, ignore it, you are all doing the biz and if one numpty in a thousand says different, listen to the other 999.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Some points re the good Major:
There is no such thing as a private e-mail. Regardless of whether or not he was using a military bearer system, countless legal rulings have proven that once written and sent, it is fair game for the public domain. If it was intended to be private, it should have been delivered by the appropriate means as such. If you can't imagine the foreman of the jury reading out every e-mail you send, you shouldn't be sending them.
Annual performance appraisals, Mess nights, and conversations with the CO are all really, really good occasions to share your views with the leadership on how things are going, and hopefully get some feedback as to why. The way this e-mail has been exposed by the bottom-feeders is unfortunate, but wholly predictable, given the clumsiness and naiveté demonstrated here.
To have a pop at your colleagues is routine and expected, especially from those Army units where 'esprit de corps' is beaten into you from day one. But like all things, there is a limit to how far it should go. The further up the command chain you are, the less acceptable it is to level accusations of this nature at a service branch that it ultimately involved in providing protection to everybody in that Theatre.
He's not working for KBR organizing truck convoys and he's not there as a private citizen. He is a member of the British Armed Forces deployed on Operations, so he does not have the luxury of passing his opinion to all and sundry, intended or not, and he is certainly not the official MoD spokesman on the effectiveness of CAS Ops. When he is, he can comment.
There is some obvious support here for yet another service professional caught in a difficult position, but the situation is largely of his own making. You have never been at liberty to express the same individual freedoms as the rest of society when you are serving as an Officer in HM Forces, especially when you find yourself in some hell-hole, courtesy of political ineptitude and a lack of moral fibre by your leadership. If that's a problem for you, write the letter, and go.
There is no such thing as a private e-mail. Regardless of whether or not he was using a military bearer system, countless legal rulings have proven that once written and sent, it is fair game for the public domain. If it was intended to be private, it should have been delivered by the appropriate means as such. If you can't imagine the foreman of the jury reading out every e-mail you send, you shouldn't be sending them.
Annual performance appraisals, Mess nights, and conversations with the CO are all really, really good occasions to share your views with the leadership on how things are going, and hopefully get some feedback as to why. The way this e-mail has been exposed by the bottom-feeders is unfortunate, but wholly predictable, given the clumsiness and naiveté demonstrated here.
To have a pop at your colleagues is routine and expected, especially from those Army units where 'esprit de corps' is beaten into you from day one. But like all things, there is a limit to how far it should go. The further up the command chain you are, the less acceptable it is to level accusations of this nature at a service branch that it ultimately involved in providing protection to everybody in that Theatre.
He's not working for KBR organizing truck convoys and he's not there as a private citizen. He is a member of the British Armed Forces deployed on Operations, so he does not have the luxury of passing his opinion to all and sundry, intended or not, and he is certainly not the official MoD spokesman on the effectiveness of CAS Ops. When he is, he can comment.
There is some obvious support here for yet another service professional caught in a difficult position, but the situation is largely of his own making. You have never been at liberty to express the same individual freedoms as the rest of society when you are serving as an Officer in HM Forces, especially when you find yourself in some hell-hole, courtesy of political ineptitude and a lack of moral fibre by your leadership. If that's a problem for you, write the letter, and go.
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Flash8 - AGREED
Why is it that someone who speaks out against the disgraceful lack of resources currently afforded to our frontline gets attacked when, in fact, they should be commended.
I am sure that I am not alone in being frustrated by seeing the overstretch on the frontline. BUT, there is NO EXCUSE for it (the overstretch) - defend and praise units operating on the frontline as much as you want (and RIGHTLY SO), but they should NOT have to put up with the lack of resources made available due to treasury penny-pinching.... Nothing new here, I accept, but a point probably worth reiterating...
Nonetheless, people who suffer whilst working and living in an environment that sees the direct result of this lack of resources should have the right to draw this to the pubic's attention. If they don't, who will?
It saddens me that this is the state we are in, but, THIS IS THE STATE WE ARE IN....
More money, more personnel, more resources would be WELCOMED, but.......
Why is it that someone who speaks out against the disgraceful lack of resources currently afforded to our frontline gets attacked when, in fact, they should be commended.
I am sure that I am not alone in being frustrated by seeing the overstretch on the frontline. BUT, there is NO EXCUSE for it (the overstretch) - defend and praise units operating on the frontline as much as you want (and RIGHTLY SO), but they should NOT have to put up with the lack of resources made available due to treasury penny-pinching.... Nothing new here, I accept, but a point probably worth reiterating...
Nonetheless, people who suffer whilst working and living in an environment that sees the direct result of this lack of resources should have the right to draw this to the pubic's attention. If they don't, who will?
It saddens me that this is the state we are in, but, THIS IS THE STATE WE ARE IN....
More money, more personnel, more resources would be WELCOMED, but.......
Last edited by anotherchopride?!; 22nd Sep 2006 at 23:58. Reason: Edited due to my computer illiteracy...