RAF "Utterly, Utterly, Useless" in Afghanistan

[Semper Jump Jet]

Originally Posted by RileyDove

The Harriers had a large number of gun pods built for the Aden 25 but it was never a success. When there was a tried and tested American gun available it's beyond comprehension why they even tried! As for the Harrier - do you really want to be at low level firing a cannon when they can quite happily return fire at you! Far better to have an element of safety and use rockets and bombs.

I agree. I must admit to being a little taken aback that the GR7 doesn't have gun! I was surprised at how often the GAU-12 has come in useful in my previous trips to the "land of not quite right". Good point that you're more exposed to enemy fire but a great piece of gear when you're working supression or worried about collateral damage. Anybody know if the GAU-12 will bolt on to the GR-7? We've got extra!

[The Otter's Pocket]

Generally as a Major he will have done JDSC or a similar course. HE isn't a numpty. It is unfortunate that people are polarised in its opinion of the Mjr.
In my opinion I am glad that he has the balls to speak out.

For too long people have been willing to take it up the aarse for the team. It is a shame that the media have dived on these e-mails.

However the plus side is that hopefully some senior officers and politicians will be shamed into acting.

For too long people would rather leave the service than stand up for what they believe in. We have equipment that isn't fit for purpose, too many tasks, poor supply chain, lack of funding...etc. Worst of all a procurement scheme that is utterly, utterly useless.

[London Mil]

As someone has previously hinted, the response on ARRSE is very balanced and mature. It would be interetsing to see, in the light of day, the context the comments were made under. Precisely, where is the RAF useless. It is only then that we can actually try and rectify any weaknesses.

As for the Leak - you don't deserve to wear a military uniform, of any colour.

[ORAC]

A little bit of PC censorship by the BBC I see......

Guardian: A female Harrier pilot 'couldn't identify the target', fired two phosphorus rockets that........

BBC: "... Harrier pilot 'couldn't identify the target', fired two phosphorus rockets......

[Cattivo]

Utterly, utterly useless

Unfortunately, the more I work in the joint environment the less this type of comment surprises me. For me, its a typical (undeserved) swipe at the RAF from the Officer Corps of the British Army who seem to have an extremely low level of appreciation of any job outwith their own and over-inflated self-importance.

Having worked a great deal in this theatre alongside the other services I have a great deal of respect for what they are doing but why is it always the Army Officer who beats his fist on the table spouting an argument that shows a complete lack of understanding of the capabilities and modus operandi of op assets.

I know mud-slinging is not helpful but I'm just fed up of this type of comment.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

utterly wronged

I am appalled that anyone could betray the confidence of another who is clearly under alot of stress. This is a clear example of the pen being mightier than the sword and a salutory lesson in be careful what you write to even your nearest and dearest. Par Example; I wrote a blogg to the family in my usual cynical manner only to have an aunt show it to a neighbour who was a retired very senior officer still working at Pma - who luckily had a sense of humour. I do not write to any one other than Mrs SLC now. I suggest said Major names and shames the distribution list of his original email until the culprit is found.

I guess his words were taken out of literal context and we (The RAF) have to accept that although we are working our nuts off to get what is needed in the the right place at the right time, we are reaping the years of underfunding, undermanning and poor precurement processes. The user units perception is reality (just ask any squaddy who has been through the appalling Deid Airhead for both HERRICK and TELIC). We have excellent people both on the ground and in the air BUT we do not have the numbers to maintain harmonisation guidelines and the numbers of aircraft to support troops in contact. The spares system just cant cope and we dont have suitable numbers of properly protected (DIRCM) AT to get it there anyway. Nothing new there then.

In short we have been let down at the highest level and undoubtedly other families will suffer breavement because of ill though political directives and a CDS who is browbeaten at every turn by his political masters. I am proud to be British, but my idea of Britain is far removed from Tonys, I am proud to be in the military, but not the underfunded, taken for granted abused armed forces that I find myself in. Myself and Mrs SLC are walking in the next 18 months. I no longer believe that we are a properly funded and respected Force for Good.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Originally Posted by oldbeefer

I doubt a Harrier boss would be awarded the DSO after 12 months and 103 missions there if the boys wern't doing a good job! (RAF News Sep 15)

Oldbeefer - alas your confidence is misplaced! I was in the RAF for many years and have seen a less flattering picture. I do not knock anyone who gets a gong but nor does it impress me one bit. Knowing what I now know, I would draw no conclusions whatsoever about what someone did or did not do in action from the fact they are sporting a posh medal. That is not to say anything about the individual himself - I do know who he is or what he has done and he may indeed be an extremely brave chap. What I do know is that you would unwise to draw too many conclusions from chests adorned with metalwork. To quote my old squadron boss from the Gulf War, "When this thing is over a whole pile of medals will be thrown up in the air, and when they fall down some will fall to the ground and some will land on people's chests". It transpired to be an extremely accurate view.

[Wayitup]

PC and ar5e licking in the forces

Again someone has the 'ball5' to speak up and highlight the under-funding, under-equipping and shambolic way the UK Armed Forces are, and have been treated for years, albeit via a 'mate'... End of the Cold War, Peace dividend, leaner meaner force, Senior Officers who have more political ambition than consideration for their men, CUTS, CUTS, CUTS, blah blah blah.....it's all bloody political nonsense. Those in positions of power, real power, generally speaking are so devoid of common sense and knowledge of front line operations they are 'military eunuchs'. Unfortunately we have Tony BLiar and his 'YES' men holding the purse strings and nothing will be done to improve the lot of our Armed Forces (except more 'Awareness training" maybe)......
Synical thought...Would B Liar and his cronies be singing the same tune if a certain E Bliar was out there in 'Hellmand' (sic)??
We send our troops in support of [American] troops into Iraq and Afghanistan to be killed, and Euan Blair gets special entry into Yale." SICK...VERY SICK

[NRDK]

RAFghanistan

RAF are not “utterly, utterly useless”
To prove it they will send ONE more Harrier to support the Battle against the Taliban & Al Qaeda.

WHAT PLANET ARE THE TOP BRASS AND POLITICALLY CORRECT ON

Obviously the rest of you didn’t send that letter to Des Browne asking for the RAF SAR to get those Helicopters & crews out there…?

What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??

[Twopack]

Originally Posted by NRDK

What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??

Yes and I saw some pongos walking down Aldershot high street the other day. Why aren't they out supporting their comrades in Afg?



Simpleton.

[LunchMonitor]

The RAF have been utterly utterly useless. In contrast USAF have been fantastic.

I know of a Canadian major who would disagree!
Having had 30+ men injured by a USAF A10, those nasty noisy harriers putting down munitions 200m away would be a luxury!

[solo73]

While I understand that there is a large amount of frustration with what has been said so far by both sides (Green and Lt Blue) I think we all need to focus on who is really at fault here:

SKY NEWS!! If one man wants to make a statement about what is his perception of HERRICK (i.e. a Coy AO) then I dont see a great problem with that. He should, however, get a trip in a GR4 or GR7 before he sounds off about A/C missing the tgt. He also needs a lesson or two about emails and the Freedom of Information act. I have ranted many a time in an email but made sure that someone else checks it; often altering it substantially to save embarrssment!

I have served for many years and have been involved in trying to co-ord FJ with NGS, Mors and Arty and never really appreciated how difficult it is for the A/C to ID the tgt when trying to avoid a. the ground and b. somebody trying to shoot it down. As with all things, mistakes do happen but there have been no recorded instances of Blue on Blue by the GR7 force, so we should be thankful.

Sky and all the other news bearing agencies need to be educated about the difficulties that all the services face when trying to sp Troops in Contact (TIC). The Service Chiefs need to mount a combined Info Ops strategy to ensure that the media understand the difficulties that Aircrew and TACPs undergo so that there is at least informed comment. Instead of some retired buffer giving his version of events (often years out of date) lets ensure that ours is the view thats heard and kill these type of stories off before they turn into this farce.

I am sure that the individual concerned has learnt a valuable lesson as a result of this and I sincerly hope he gets no more than a reminder about who has access to this type of info. He is under enormous pressure and everyone involved is feeling the pressure of a long period of intensive Ops.

Sky and the BBC should focus on the positives of HERRICK, not the negatives; everyone involved is working under tremendous pressures

[scanscanscan]

The recently published book.....Donkies, Lions and Dinasours..seemed to sum it all up....as the equipment is not fit for purpose.

[SASless]

Gongs in Combat Areas....flow from the top dear boy....and everyone has their hand out on the way down.

The lads in the thick of it get the least recognition because there is less rank present as you get closer to the fighting.

There are acts of great courage every day but very few get the honours they deserve. I always thought exemplry service was rewarded by promotion and gallantry was rewarded by the award of a medal. Perhaps I am wrong for every military seems to do it the other way around.

[NRDK]

2Pac

Yes and I saw some pongos walking down Aldershot high street the other day. Why aren't they out supporting their comrades in Afg?

Probably been there already and/or waiting for some Crab aircraft to stop having a jolly abroad for duty free, so they can get out there and do the business. Although, without the air support their days could be numbered.

[brickhistory]

Originally Posted by LunchMonitor

I know of a Canadian major who would disagree!
Having had 30+ men injured by a USAF A10, those nasty noisy harriers putting down munitions 200m away would be a luxury!

Do you have the background to judge this? 200m be a world away for all the difference it makes to a gent who called for CAS?

Regarding the A-10 'blue on blue,' that absolutely is a tragedy. How many times has that situation NOT happened and the 'Hog delivered accurate CAS to troops in contact? But that's not fun to poke at is it?

[Two's in]

It did not take "balls" to speak out. As a serving officer he swore an oath of allegiance to the Sovereign and her Ministers. If he has a problem with those Ministers and their policy (as most of us do by the way) he resigns his commission and says anything he damn well likes (within the boundaries of the OSA). An oath of allegiance is not a "tick applicable section" choice. It demands unswerving loyalty and accountability. That's why as officers we are largely instruments of Government Defence policy. Anyone who does not grasp this basic concept is not fit to hold a commission, and again, comes back to a society that demands "rights", but has no clue about its "responsibilities". Read the small print on the scroll if you don't believe me.

[Lazer-Hound]

IMHO this thread is missing the point. There's far too much debate on whether this Major was right to put his views into emails and not nearly enough on why he should hold these views in the first place. The real question is, what are the RAF doing wrong to make him feel they are "utterly, utterly useless" and what are USAF doing right for him to feel they're "fantastic", and what should be changed to make him feel that the RAF are "fantastic" too.

This guy is on the ground, leading troops, in daily contact with the enemy. He's entitled to his opinions. The question is, how does the RAF change them?

[MaxReheat]

I've just read mine (no longer operational) and nowhere is there any mention of 'ministers' or politicians. The commission was granted to me by my Sovereign, not some amateur, flash-in-the-pan political desk jockey.

Wayitup - absolutely, spot on. Get Euan's backside in the frontline and let's see if BLiar would show as much bravado for his great project.

[Twopack]

Originally Posted by NRDK

Probably been there already and/or waiting for some Crab aircraft to stop having a jolly abroad for duty free, so they can get out there and do the business. Although, without the air support their days could be numbered.

Try that fatuous argument with the families of the crew from 2 multi aircraft that we've lost recently while in support of the troops.



And then grow up.