Foiled airline bomb plan - Well Done!
This is a very similar plot to that in the Philippines back in '95. One aircraft was bombed but survived the event after the terrorists tested their bomb on a real aircraft with real people as targets.
Far better the security forces nab folks and find it was a mistake than hesitate and then investigate 5000-7000 deathes following a mass attack as was suggested being the goal of the suspects.
That might not suit some of you naysayers but then reality oft times disproves those kinds of ideas don't they?
I challenge the concept this is a criminal matter....attacks like these constitute an act of war and should be handled that way.
"Tolerance" taken to excess has put the UK in great peril as the Underground bombings demonstrate.
Far better the security forces nab folks and find it was a mistake than hesitate and then investigate 5000-7000 deathes following a mass attack as was suggested being the goal of the suspects.
That might not suit some of you naysayers but then reality oft times disproves those kinds of ideas don't they?
I challenge the concept this is a criminal matter....attacks like these constitute an act of war and should be handled that way.
"Tolerance" taken to excess has put the UK in great peril as the Underground bombings demonstrate.
Just a coincidence that the fifth anniversiary of 9-11 is coming up?
"Tolerance" taken to excess has put the UK in great peril as the Underground bombings demonstrate.
I don't see how tolerance is to blame, though I do think that an over-PC approach will prevent proper security screening from being undertaken.
I would say that the Underground bombings demonstrate the failure of the Pakistani community to integrate in the way that the West Indians have, and demonstrate the inherent danger in having a non-integrated immigrant population who do not share British values.
I would say that the apparent willingness of the UK Government to follow US foreign policy in a way that can be interpreted as 'anti-Islamic', and to follow US 'pro-Israeli' policy (including the failure to call for an immediate halt to Israeli military ops against the Lebanon) has outraged Muslims, including British Muslims, further exacerbating the problem. The failure to address the concerns of moderate Muslims over Israel, etc. is particularly dangerous.
I would say that the failure to halt the custom of bringing in spouses from rural Pakistan has kept the UK Pakistani community more Pakistani, more old fashioned, and more Islamic than would be the case if young British Muslims married each other, while the custom of sending young men back to study in Madrassas is clearly dangerous, if only in preventing them from more fully integrating into UK society.
I don't see how tolerance is to blame, though I do think that an over-PC approach will prevent proper security screening from being undertaken.
I would say that the Underground bombings demonstrate the failure of the Pakistani community to integrate in the way that the West Indians have, and demonstrate the inherent danger in having a non-integrated immigrant population who do not share British values.
I would say that the apparent willingness of the UK Government to follow US foreign policy in a way that can be interpreted as 'anti-Islamic', and to follow US 'pro-Israeli' policy (including the failure to call for an immediate halt to Israeli military ops against the Lebanon) has outraged Muslims, including British Muslims, further exacerbating the problem. The failure to address the concerns of moderate Muslims over Israel, etc. is particularly dangerous.
I would say that the failure to halt the custom of bringing in spouses from rural Pakistan has kept the UK Pakistani community more Pakistani, more old fashioned, and more Islamic than would be the case if young British Muslims married each other, while the custom of sending young men back to study in Madrassas is clearly dangerous, if only in preventing them from more fully integrating into UK society.
Saw Hugh of the BBC reading the news from LHR, was disappointed that neither himself, George or Natasha were brave enough to read the news from Beirut, especially after their efforts covering the Avian flue "outbreak" in Scotland
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There will always be those who view all acts of "their" government as lies, tricks, and conspiracies... like Jack-my-brain's-been-nicked-O!
Like the moron on the Rumors & News forum who likened this to " When Thatcher's ratings were at an all time low, causing the Falklands war put her back at the top of the ratings." Someone calling himself icarus5, location France!
Forgive my poor memory... just how did she get the Argies to invade Port Stanley again??? Or was that more lies too... and they had been there all along!
Like the moron on the Rumors & News forum who likened this to " When Thatcher's ratings were at an all time low, causing the Falklands war put her back at the top of the ratings." Someone calling himself icarus5, location France!
Forgive my poor memory... just how did she get the Argies to invade Port Stanley again??? Or was that more lies too... and they had been there all along!
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It is interesting reading the posts on this topic both here and in the Rumours and news forum the amount of skeptisim surrounding this issue.
I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.
Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.
It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.
I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.
Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.
It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.
Indian,
How many terrorist acts occurred before Bush got elected? Count just the ones during Clinton's administration and report back to us please.
I do believe you will find the dangers of terrorism were with us long before Bush began to campaign for the office much less entered office.
Whether one "trusts" one's government or "believes" one's leaders has more to do with your political leanings than actual events on the ground (and in the air).
I have the same kinds of concerns you do in a left handed way.....the thought of the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha controlling the national defense scares the bejesus out of me. They would rather play partisan politics than look to the needs and interests of the nation as a whole.
George Bush inherited a military establishment that is one third the size his Father had to fight Gulf War I and that lack of forces has caused a very detrimental effect to our ability to deter agression and threats to our national interests.
If you cannot accept this world problem with Islamic Fundamentalism has been a very long time coming then I would suggest you might question the basis you found your opinon upon just as you question Bush and Blair.
My generation grew up on Cowboy shows....Horse Operas as we call them.
Code of the West
Live each day with courage.
Take pride in your work.
Always finish what you start.
Do what has to be done.
Be tough, but fair.
When you make a promise, keep it.
Ride for the brand.
Talk less and say more.
Remember that some things aren't for sale.
Know where to draw the line.
http://www.elvaquero.com/The_Cowboy_Code.htm
How many terrorist acts occurred before Bush got elected? Count just the ones during Clinton's administration and report back to us please.
I do believe you will find the dangers of terrorism were with us long before Bush began to campaign for the office much less entered office.
Whether one "trusts" one's government or "believes" one's leaders has more to do with your political leanings than actual events on the ground (and in the air).
I have the same kinds of concerns you do in a left handed way.....the thought of the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha controlling the national defense scares the bejesus out of me. They would rather play partisan politics than look to the needs and interests of the nation as a whole.
George Bush inherited a military establishment that is one third the size his Father had to fight Gulf War I and that lack of forces has caused a very detrimental effect to our ability to deter agression and threats to our national interests.
If you cannot accept this world problem with Islamic Fundamentalism has been a very long time coming then I would suggest you might question the basis you found your opinon upon just as you question Bush and Blair.
My generation grew up on Cowboy shows....Horse Operas as we call them.
Code of the West
Live each day with courage.
Take pride in your work.
Always finish what you start.
Do what has to be done.
Be tough, but fair.
When you make a promise, keep it.
Ride for the brand.
Talk less and say more.
Remember that some things aren't for sale.
Know where to draw the line.
http://www.elvaquero.com/The_Cowboy_Code.htm
Last edited by SASless; 11th Aug 2006 at 01:04.
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I quite agree with John Reid: we have to toughen up. I'm sure Jacko will have read it!
As he promised to appeal against the ruling, Mr Reid said another attack on the UK was "highly likely".
In his address, Mr Reid used stark terms to describe how today's terrorists were "unconstrained" in their intentions, by international conventions, standards or morality.
"None of us should be anything other than vigilant and that vigilance is the price of securing our freedom," he said.
"There is no room for complacency. We are probably in the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of the Second World War.
"While I am confident that the security services and police will deliver 100% effort and 100% dedication, they cannot guarantee 100% success.
"Our security services and the apparatus of the state, while they are an absolutely essential pre-requisite for defeating terrorism, cannot be sufficient on their own.
"Our common security in this country can only be assured by a common effort from all sections of society."
Security rethink needed
Mr Reid said the "challenge to all of us" means "we may have to modify some of our freedoms in the short-term in order to prevent their misuse and abuse by those who oppose our fundamental values and would destroy our freedoms and values in the long-term".
"It is up to each and all of us to ask the questions: what price our security? What price our freedoms? At what cost can we preserve our freedoms?
"What values are at stake and what is the cost of making the wrong choices in the short term?"
Mr Reid said politicians, the judiciary and the public sector needed to "understand the depth and magnitude" of the terrorist threat facing the UK.
He said he was frustrated by the number of people who should be better informed, but "who just don't get it".
He called for a dramatic rethink of the country's security policy to fit this century, rather than base it on a framework more suited to the last century.
As he promised to appeal against the ruling, Mr Reid said another attack on the UK was "highly likely".
In his address, Mr Reid used stark terms to describe how today's terrorists were "unconstrained" in their intentions, by international conventions, standards or morality.
"None of us should be anything other than vigilant and that vigilance is the price of securing our freedom," he said.
"There is no room for complacency. We are probably in the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of the Second World War.
"While I am confident that the security services and police will deliver 100% effort and 100% dedication, they cannot guarantee 100% success.
"Our security services and the apparatus of the state, while they are an absolutely essential pre-requisite for defeating terrorism, cannot be sufficient on their own.
"Our common security in this country can only be assured by a common effort from all sections of society."
Security rethink needed
Mr Reid said the "challenge to all of us" means "we may have to modify some of our freedoms in the short-term in order to prevent their misuse and abuse by those who oppose our fundamental values and would destroy our freedoms and values in the long-term".
"It is up to each and all of us to ask the questions: what price our security? What price our freedoms? At what cost can we preserve our freedoms?
"What values are at stake and what is the cost of making the wrong choices in the short term?"
Mr Reid said politicians, the judiciary and the public sector needed to "understand the depth and magnitude" of the terrorist threat facing the UK.
He said he was frustrated by the number of people who should be better informed, but "who just don't get it".
He called for a dramatic rethink of the country's security policy to fit this century, rather than base it on a framework more suited to the last century.
This is a bit telling where some folks think their loyalties lie....
Muslims assimilate the culture of their adopted countries?
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Originally Posted by Indianzz
It is interesting reading the posts on this topic both here and in the Rumours and news forum the amount of skeptisim surrounding this issue.
I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.
Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.
It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.
I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.
Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.
It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.
I love these people who bleat, whine, and act so self-rightous all the while their freedom is guaranteed by others and by thousands of miles of ocean. I think the Brits ought to ship all the muslims over to Kiwi-land.
Indianzz evidently doesn't have the brains or character to make good cowboy, SASless. Thanks for reminding us of what character is.
Aw Shucks Roadtrip....I never could give a miss to a good game of Cowboy and Indianzz errrrr...Indians!
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Perhaps SASless and Roadtrip may like to take a considered deep breath before they start tossing around the insults etc.
And while they're doing that check out New Zealand's record at contributing to major world conflicts - start with WW1 / WW2 / Korean & Vietnam Wars and go from there. Then reflect upon the fact that our total population now has only just reached 4 million - you will then "possibly" - although I'm not too hopeful - realise that we have contrinuted portionately more than the good ole USA and UK combined.
With all due respect "gentlemen" your attitude attitude is a direct result of America no longer having the USSR to keep it in check and you now think you can run roughshod over the whole world - well sorry - you cant.
Giddyup
And while they're doing that check out New Zealand's record at contributing to major world conflicts - start with WW1 / WW2 / Korean & Vietnam Wars and go from there. Then reflect upon the fact that our total population now has only just reached 4 million - you will then "possibly" - although I'm not too hopeful - realise that we have contrinuted portionately more than the good ole USA and UK combined.
With all due respect "gentlemen" your attitude attitude is a direct result of America no longer having the USSR to keep it in check and you now think you can run roughshod over the whole world - well sorry - you cant.
Giddyup
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Complete, utter nonsense Roadtrip.
"It is self-defeating logic, just as the weapons themselves are self-defeating: to compel an ally to accept nuclear weapons against the wishes of that ally is to take the moral position of totalitarianism, which allows for no self-determination, and which is exactly the evil that we are supposed to be fighting against".
I just love the way you're defending the free world in Iraq.
David Lange, late Prime Minister of NZ. Read the full text of that famous OxFord Union Debate, and digest, before judging us.
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post
"It is self-defeating logic, just as the weapons themselves are self-defeating: to compel an ally to accept nuclear weapons against the wishes of that ally is to take the moral position of totalitarianism, which allows for no self-determination, and which is exactly the evil that we are supposed to be fighting against".
I just love the way you're defending the free world in Iraq.
David Lange, late Prime Minister of NZ. Read the full text of that famous OxFord Union Debate, and digest, before judging us.
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post
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Will you boys play nicely and stop being beastly to the Kiwis? They are well out of it and that hardly sets them up for criticism. That distance, perhaps, gives them a unique view on the "Axis of righteousness". It grieves me to paraphrase Geo W but, sometimes, he deserves it. Let's also stop feigning surprise at the reference to cowboy culture. It's obvious that Geo W revels in it; but how our resident f**kwit fits in there, the Heavens only know. Like it or not, that is how a large part of our crowded little planet see you Americans.
Samuel is right to point out the contribution and, sadly, sacrifice that NZ has made, per head of population, to our freedom. No doubt they will be there again the next time we need them.
Correcting the thread drift error: the upset yesterday has all the signs of being home grown. Coupled with the outcome of our liberal, feckless and politically correct society, events in Iraq and other lands of the mosque have nurtured a hatred in the Muslim youth that will now be hard to illuminate. Again, Geo W bandying precise words like "war" and "fascist" doesn't help anyone. In fact, it gives these evil murderers a banner of respectability.
Anyway, can we stop being so precious and read these posts in context and with just a hint of humour? I acknowledge SASless as making the effort on the latter.
Samuel is right to point out the contribution and, sadly, sacrifice that NZ has made, per head of population, to our freedom. No doubt they will be there again the next time we need them.
Correcting the thread drift error: the upset yesterday has all the signs of being home grown. Coupled with the outcome of our liberal, feckless and politically correct society, events in Iraq and other lands of the mosque have nurtured a hatred in the Muslim youth that will now be hard to illuminate. Again, Geo W bandying precise words like "war" and "fascist" doesn't help anyone. In fact, it gives these evil murderers a banner of respectability.
Anyway, can we stop being so precious and read these posts in context and with just a hint of humour? I acknowledge SASless as making the effort on the latter.
TAC Int Bloke
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I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.
With all due respect "gentlemen" your attitude is a direct result of America no longer having the USSR to keep it in check and you now think you can run roughshod over the whole world - well sorry - you can’t.
They started two world wars, faked 9/11 and murdered 6 million Arabs in the Israeli gas chambers whilst steeling all the world’s oil to fry whales in – any other offences you’d like to take into account? FFS, I wonder why they bother......Still, I'm sure Helen loves you Indianzz, keep hugging those trees! (No NZ strike aircraft for you when you grow up!)
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Please forgive what may be a naive request from Cabin Crew (Mil is not my usual turf since my lot stopped the German trooper flights some years back).
Is there anybody that I can write/email to say "well done and thanks": This probably seems silly, but so many people are quick to give Police/Security services a hard time when it goes wrong - I just feel that I'd like to say thanks when they get it right!
Many Thanks
Is there anybody that I can write/email to say "well done and thanks": This probably seems silly, but so many people are quick to give Police/Security services a hard time when it goes wrong - I just feel that I'd like to say thanks when they get it right!
Many Thanks
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Originally Posted by haltonapp
Saw Hugh of the BBC reading the news from LHR, was disappointed that neither himself, George or Natasha were brave enough to read the news from Beirut, especially after their efforts covering the Avian flue "outbreak" in Scotland
Hugh Edwards only returned from the Middle East on Monday last week (31st Jul) after presenting the news from Israel.
The BBC do have cameramen and reporters in Beirut and Southern Lebanon.