Foiled airline bomb plan - Well Done!
Jacko,
Quite the contrary Jacko....those cases are proof of what I am saying. They took up the Terrorist track but were not dedicated enough to commit suicide to accomplish their deeds.
Lindh was in Afghanistan when captured, Padilla had intentions of building a dirty bomb but nothing suggests he had suicide bombing as the method.
We have our malcontents but none that are happy to sit atop that Pyramid of dedication....the one with the very broad base of folks that nod "uh huh" when they read or hear of something and is topped by those that gladly die for their cause. Oddly enough it is almost the opposite to a Pyramid drawn for those willing to defend freedom.
ignoring John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, Jose Padilla et al,
Quite the contrary Jacko....those cases are proof of what I am saying. They took up the Terrorist track but were not dedicated enough to commit suicide to accomplish their deeds.
Lindh was in Afghanistan when captured, Padilla had intentions of building a dirty bomb but nothing suggests he had suicide bombing as the method.
We have our malcontents but none that are happy to sit atop that Pyramid of dedication....the one with the very broad base of folks that nod "uh huh" when they read or hear of something and is topped by those that gladly die for their cause. Oddly enough it is almost the opposite to a Pyramid drawn for those willing to defend freedom.
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Beags my Bonny Lad
A lot of us did listen to Enoch at the time, but gay boy Morning Cloud II considered us to be in the minority - so he was shunted off to NI to keep him quiet
Had it been now - the minority would definitely have won, and 40 years down the line, we wouldn't be living in this cr*p multicultural society of today
Enoch Powell served in WWII. He was the youngest officer ever to be promoted to Brigadier in the history of the British Army - He spoke 11 languages and was at interpreter level in 6 - he translated Homer into English - never attempted before.
He entered politics to make a difference. As MP for Wolverhampton from the early 50's, he witnessed the post war influx of Carribean and Irish immigrants to the Midlands to do the dirty jobs and build the M1, so he was the best informed MP on these topics. Technically he was an MP, but in essence he was rare, much like Churchill, he was a Statesman - there is a fundamental difference! He would have been a great PM for this country.
His speech to the House was stunning, articulate, accurate and damning - that's why he went
There have been very few 'possible' Statesmen in Parliament since. It's been heavily populated with self serving grubby politicians waiting for the next gravy train - we desperately need another Oliver Cromwell or Enoch Powell to sort out this mess were in now
Not holding my breath whilst paddling my own canoe!
A lot of us did listen to Enoch at the time, but gay boy Morning Cloud II considered us to be in the minority - so he was shunted off to NI to keep him quiet
Had it been now - the minority would definitely have won, and 40 years down the line, we wouldn't be living in this cr*p multicultural society of today
Enoch Powell served in WWII. He was the youngest officer ever to be promoted to Brigadier in the history of the British Army - He spoke 11 languages and was at interpreter level in 6 - he translated Homer into English - never attempted before.
He entered politics to make a difference. As MP for Wolverhampton from the early 50's, he witnessed the post war influx of Carribean and Irish immigrants to the Midlands to do the dirty jobs and build the M1, so he was the best informed MP on these topics. Technically he was an MP, but in essence he was rare, much like Churchill, he was a Statesman - there is a fundamental difference! He would have been a great PM for this country.
His speech to the House was stunning, articulate, accurate and damning - that's why he went
There have been very few 'possible' Statesmen in Parliament since. It's been heavily populated with self serving grubby politicians waiting for the next gravy train - we desperately need another Oliver Cromwell or Enoch Powell to sort out this mess were in now
Not holding my breath whilst paddling my own canoe!
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Tablet Eraser wrote:
An interesting thought from one who would be being treated with anything but decency and respect and would not be in his current profession were it not for the jurisprudence of the ECtHR.
The HRA does not adversely affect the fight against terrorism. Its repeal would have no effect on UK law whatsoever. It merely saves the bother of the 10+ years it takes to get to Strasbourg. It also helps ensure that we fight terrorism in such a manner that we don't create 10 terrorists for every one we capture or kill.
On the general subject, I tend to subscribe to the thought of Prof. Richard Dawkins: "There will always be a few evil men doing evil things. However, for good men to do evil takes religion."
A culture that didn't need the Human Rights Act to tell it how to treat people with decency and respect.
The HRA does not adversely affect the fight against terrorism. Its repeal would have no effect on UK law whatsoever. It merely saves the bother of the 10+ years it takes to get to Strasbourg. It also helps ensure that we fight terrorism in such a manner that we don't create 10 terrorists for every one we capture or kill.
On the general subject, I tend to subscribe to the thought of Prof. Richard Dawkins: "There will always be a few evil men doing evil things. However, for good men to do evil takes religion."
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The HRA does not adversely affect the fight against terrorism. Its repeal would have no effect on UK law whatsoever.
You are correct about the Strasbourg thing, however, if a piece of legislation has not been enacted in our own laws we can simply do what every other EU nation does with EU diktats it doesn't like - ie IGNORE THEM! What are they going to do, invade us to enforce their nonesense?
What we should do, of course, is both repeal the disastrous HRA AND withdraw (or at the very least demand derogation) from the pathetic, outdated treaty that spawned it. We would then be free to draft our own set of Human Rights laws - designed with the world we now live in in mind, not the idealistic world of the 1950's - ones that don't frustrate the important business of national security and law enforcement at every turn.
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You will be assimilated. You will be assimilated. Sounds more like the Daleks & the Borg. What you going to do when they say no?
Lot of absolute crap in this thread about the US. Anyone that comes to the US can live whatever lifestyle they choose. And they do. If you want to become a citizen all you have to do is speak a few words of english, know who's the president and promise allegiance to the flag. Nothing in there about how to live your life. As a result there's thousands of different cultures and different lifestyles. It's a right all Americans have and it's written down in our constitution and enforced by law. We call it freedom.
Lot of absolute crap in this thread about the US. Anyone that comes to the US can live whatever lifestyle they choose. And they do. If you want to become a citizen all you have to do is speak a few words of english, know who's the president and promise allegiance to the flag. Nothing in there about how to live your life. As a result there's thousands of different cultures and different lifestyles. It's a right all Americans have and it's written down in our constitution and enforced by law. We call it freedom.
You can't force people to assimilate, or integrate of course, but you can pursue policies that encourage it, or you can pursue policies that discourage it.
The USA hasn't been discouraging assimilation (quite the reverse - its whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration) while we have been facillitating separate development and 'ghetto-isation'.
The idea that US citizens should know anything of the nation's history, constitution and politics, and a little of its language, and that they should swear alleigance is unexceptionable in the USA. If they want to be US citizens why would they not do that?
Over here, most of those things would be judged unacceptable infringements on the immigrant's rights.
Buoy,
Enoch Powell was undeniably a powerful orator, a great polemicist and an extremely clever man. Like many such people (Tony Benn, for example, or Oswald Moseley), however, he was not blessed with what you might call practical intelligence, and tottered close to the brink of being unhinged. You may applaud the Rivers of Blood speech, but I doubt you'd agree with his approach to Suez, nor his assessment (in February '43) that America (which he called "our terrible enemy", was a "greater peril than Germany or Japan ever were."
He was actually responsible for much of the early immigration, deliberately recruiting West Indian nurses as Minister for Health.
He was a poor minister, with no capacity for the hard work and tedious detail, and would have been an absolute disaster as PM, even without his barking mad ideas on race and immigration. Even in '68 (were you even alive?) re-emigration was a non-starter, and his prediction that the Black man would "have the whip hand" by 1983-88 was cretinous.
The immigrant groups we had then, who Powell was so afraid of, have largely integrated successfully, and are now making as great a contribution to UK society as you or I. Dredging Powell up now is entirely irrelevant, inappropriate, and pretty offensive, and surely only the terminally dim, or neo-fascist National Front and British Movement idiots would seriously admire the man's political legacy.
The USA hasn't been discouraging assimilation (quite the reverse - its whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration) while we have been facillitating separate development and 'ghetto-isation'.
The idea that US citizens should know anything of the nation's history, constitution and politics, and a little of its language, and that they should swear alleigance is unexceptionable in the USA. If they want to be US citizens why would they not do that?
Over here, most of those things would be judged unacceptable infringements on the immigrant's rights.
Buoy,
Enoch Powell was undeniably a powerful orator, a great polemicist and an extremely clever man. Like many such people (Tony Benn, for example, or Oswald Moseley), however, he was not blessed with what you might call practical intelligence, and tottered close to the brink of being unhinged. You may applaud the Rivers of Blood speech, but I doubt you'd agree with his approach to Suez, nor his assessment (in February '43) that America (which he called "our terrible enemy", was a "greater peril than Germany or Japan ever were."
He was actually responsible for much of the early immigration, deliberately recruiting West Indian nurses as Minister for Health.
He was a poor minister, with no capacity for the hard work and tedious detail, and would have been an absolute disaster as PM, even without his barking mad ideas on race and immigration. Even in '68 (were you even alive?) re-emigration was a non-starter, and his prediction that the Black man would "have the whip hand" by 1983-88 was cretinous.
The immigrant groups we had then, who Powell was so afraid of, have largely integrated successfully, and are now making as great a contribution to UK society as you or I. Dredging Powell up now is entirely irrelevant, inappropriate, and pretty offensive, and surely only the terminally dim, or neo-fascist National Front and British Movement idiots would seriously admire the man's political legacy.
Is there any truth in the rumor that the guys arrested in Britain have no passports, no airline tickets and no money, not to mention no explosives?
If this is indeed the case, and since passports take a considerable time to arrive, and airline tickets require legal tender to purchase, are we being conned again about the apprehended threat? The Government has "form" in this regard (remember WMD's?)
It would of course be convenient, taking the publics mind off of the mess that is Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lebanon and reinforcing the "war on terror" meme?
If this is indeed the case, and since passports take a considerable time to arrive, and airline tickets require legal tender to purchase, are we being conned again about the apprehended threat? The Government has "form" in this regard (remember WMD's?)
It would of course be convenient, taking the publics mind off of the mess that is Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lebanon and reinforcing the "war on terror" meme?
Slightly OT, but I'm not sure that Powell lacked a capacity for hard work - he was famous for his work rate when a student, and his two biographies suggest that his civil servants were impressed (and sometimes daunted) with his ability to get through long, tedious memoranda and where appropriate present his alternative view to the civil service within the space of an evening's work. In fact, his capacity for work is part of what made him slightly odd...
(BTW he was sacked from the Shadow Cabinet after the speech (he was shadow Sec of State for Defence rather than sent to NI), and the 'Rivers of Blood' speech - not that the phrase 'rivers of blood' appeared in it - was made at the Midland Hotel in Birmingham, rather than in the Commons.)
(BTW he was sacked from the Shadow Cabinet after the speech (he was shadow Sec of State for Defence rather than sent to NI), and the 'Rivers of Blood' speech - not that the phrase 'rivers of blood' appeared in it - was made at the Midland Hotel in Birmingham, rather than in the Commons.)
Over here, most of those things would be judged unacceptable infringements on the immigrant's rights.
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Sunfish
Bush is making the most of it in planning an election strategy over the pond, I believe. And of course, it has taken the heat off the appalling campaign in Lebanon.
Bush is making the most of it in planning an election strategy over the pond, I believe. And of course, it has taken the heat off the appalling campaign in Lebanon.
TR,
I can't imagine that I'll ever have the chance to use the following phrase again, so I'll make the most of it:
"I agree with that frightful old scrote Tebbit on this!"
His famous cricket test seems to have value.
It strikes me that we should expect immigrants to adapt to British culture, to accept British values, to embrace a British identity, and to WANT to integrate and assimilate, and that in return, they should be welcomed, and shown tolerance and respect, and should be encouraged to keep those aspects of their culture that do not threaten ours, and that we should eagerly embrace those elements that will enrich ours.
I recognise that making immigrants undergo a 'Britishness test' (ensuring some knowledge of the nation's values, traditions, history, and politics, and expecting them to HAVE to know a little of our language) would be deemed unacceptable here, but I think I would favour such an approach, personally.
I can't imagine that I'll ever have the chance to use the following phrase again, so I'll make the most of it:
"I agree with that frightful old scrote Tebbit on this!"
His famous cricket test seems to have value.
It strikes me that we should expect immigrants to adapt to British culture, to accept British values, to embrace a British identity, and to WANT to integrate and assimilate, and that in return, they should be welcomed, and shown tolerance and respect, and should be encouraged to keep those aspects of their culture that do not threaten ours, and that we should eagerly embrace those elements that will enrich ours.
I recognise that making immigrants undergo a 'Britishness test' (ensuring some knowledge of the nation's values, traditions, history, and politics, and expecting them to HAVE to know a little of our language) would be deemed unacceptable here, but I think I would favour such an approach, personally.
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"..its (US) whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration"
Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh.
Anyone and any country that starts down a path of imposing their idea of values & cultures onto it's own citizens is starting down a very slippery slope. Past regimes that have done that have not fared well.
I repeat my question, what are you going to do with those that do not want to embrace your values & culture? What are you going to do with those that will not abandon parts or all of their culture that you deem to be threatening?
Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh.
Anyone and any country that starts down a path of imposing their idea of values & cultures onto it's own citizens is starting down a very slippery slope. Past regimes that have done that have not fared well.
I repeat my question, what are you going to do with those that do not want to embrace your values & culture? What are you going to do with those that will not abandon parts or all of their culture that you deem to be threatening?
Teddy Roosevelt on being an American and an immigrant
http://www.rpatrick.com/USA/americanism/
In 1915, Teddy Roosevelt provided his views on "Americanism" and being an immigrant to this country. He says it correctly I suggest.
It very easily could be applied to the UK and other European nations when considering immigrants taking citizenship as the concepts apply equally elsewhere about the world.
In 1915, Teddy Roosevelt provided his views on "Americanism" and being an immigrant to this country. He says it correctly I suggest.
It very easily could be applied to the UK and other European nations when considering immigrants taking citizenship as the concepts apply equally elsewhere about the world.
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Oh, come on! Let's apply some common-sense to the theory that the Government is orchestrating this situation to "cover up" or distract us from what's going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon:
1. What's going on in Lebanon has nothing to do with this country. It is in the news every single day. It is impossible not to know what's happening. The UK voted for UN resolution 1701 sanctioning an increased UN force in Lebanon. Iraq and Afghanistan are a permanent feature in the news. Any distraction would be of extremely short-term benefit, and hardly worth the bother of an enormous consipracy.
2. The Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, has confirmed its involvement in the intelligence operation prior to these arrests. Are we supposed to believe that Pakistan is complicit in a UK conspiracy to "cover up" the actions of Israel, a country that Pakistan despises, or to help distract a foreign country's populace from its actions in the Middle East?
3. The Department of Transport has imposed crushingly tight restrictions on hand luggage in response to the threat, and hundreds of flights have been cancelled. Business leaders are warning that the imposition of additional security will cost millions. The restrictions were planned at a meeting of COBRA with civil servants present. No matter how loyal our Civil Service may be, I contend that it would be impossible to maintain a cover-up on this scale with so many people involved. It didn't work with WMD.
4. The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that they have been maintaining a covert surveillance operation connected with this plot for over a year. So, did the Government know a year ago that Israel would be attacking Lebanon at the moment? Has it been maintaining this operation, at a cost of unknown hundreds of thousands, just in case it felt the need to divert our attention from ongoing operations?
I dislike this Government with every fibre of my being. They've done one or two good things, but in most respects they have changed this country for the worse. However, I simply cannot believe that the current travails are part of an orchestrated consipracy, involving 3 government departments and a foreign Government, to terrify the people of this country. And I think it's irresponsible to speculate that that might be the case, because trivialising or dismissing the current situation is precisely the opposite to what we should be doing.
1. What's going on in Lebanon has nothing to do with this country. It is in the news every single day. It is impossible not to know what's happening. The UK voted for UN resolution 1701 sanctioning an increased UN force in Lebanon. Iraq and Afghanistan are a permanent feature in the news. Any distraction would be of extremely short-term benefit, and hardly worth the bother of an enormous consipracy.
2. The Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, has confirmed its involvement in the intelligence operation prior to these arrests. Are we supposed to believe that Pakistan is complicit in a UK conspiracy to "cover up" the actions of Israel, a country that Pakistan despises, or to help distract a foreign country's populace from its actions in the Middle East?
3. The Department of Transport has imposed crushingly tight restrictions on hand luggage in response to the threat, and hundreds of flights have been cancelled. Business leaders are warning that the imposition of additional security will cost millions. The restrictions were planned at a meeting of COBRA with civil servants present. No matter how loyal our Civil Service may be, I contend that it would be impossible to maintain a cover-up on this scale with so many people involved. It didn't work with WMD.
4. The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that they have been maintaining a covert surveillance operation connected with this plot for over a year. So, did the Government know a year ago that Israel would be attacking Lebanon at the moment? Has it been maintaining this operation, at a cost of unknown hundreds of thousands, just in case it felt the need to divert our attention from ongoing operations?
I dislike this Government with every fibre of my being. They've done one or two good things, but in most respects they have changed this country for the worse. However, I simply cannot believe that the current travails are part of an orchestrated consipracy, involving 3 government departments and a foreign Government, to terrify the people of this country. And I think it's irresponsible to speculate that that might be the case, because trivialising or dismissing the current situation is precisely the opposite to what we should be doing.
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Originally Posted by RonO
Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with?
So yes, I think it is necessary for new immigrants - much as they might contribute to our country in terms of their former cultures - to accept our way of life, and not seek to change it through anything other than democratic means.
Originally Posted by RonO
What are you going to do with those that will not abandon parts or all of their culture that you deem to be threatening?
"..its (US) whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration"
"Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh."
It's a rainbow nation, sure. It's a tolerant rainbow nation. It's diverse. But the very fact that you all stand for the same anthem, all pledge to the flag at school (and very few of you see anything odd in this) indicates to me that your immigrants quickly come to share the same core values. When it's a big deal that the Hispanics want to sing the same anthem, to the same tune, but in Spanish, that indicates to me that you have nothing like the disconnection that we have with huge sections of our Pakistani population. It's said that 25% of our Moslem population don't condemn 7/7. Could you say the same of any section of the US population about 9/11.
"Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh."
It's a rainbow nation, sure. It's a tolerant rainbow nation. It's diverse. But the very fact that you all stand for the same anthem, all pledge to the flag at school (and very few of you see anything odd in this) indicates to me that your immigrants quickly come to share the same core values. When it's a big deal that the Hispanics want to sing the same anthem, to the same tune, but in Spanish, that indicates to me that you have nothing like the disconnection that we have with huge sections of our Pakistani population. It's said that 25% of our Moslem population don't condemn 7/7. Could you say the same of any section of the US population about 9/11.
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tablet eraser, you seem to equate folks living a different life style, following a different religion and maintaining their own culture with terrorists. What are you going to do? Put every british muslim in prison?
SASles, you need to spend more time talking with your fellow Americans of all cultures before spouting that 100 year old crap from Roosevelt.
Jacko, I bet I could find you 25% Americans that have never heard of 9/11. So what? If you think your problems will be cured by singing the anthem & kids reciting to the flag (which by the way is not done at all US schools), then you go for it girl
SASles, you need to spend more time talking with your fellow Americans of all cultures before spouting that 100 year old crap from Roosevelt.
Jacko, I bet I could find you 25% Americans that have never heard of 9/11. So what? If you think your problems will be cured by singing the anthem & kids reciting to the flag (which by the way is not done at all US schools), then you go for it girl
RonO dear lad,
Perhaps if you slowed your speed reading pace and devoted some time towards comprehension, you might find the 100 year old crap a bit more timely than it would appear.
Teddy in the context of Americanism said much what Jacko and several others here see as being the root of the terrorism problem the UK faces now and other EU nations are also experiencing.
It does not make Teddy right, a reader of the future, but it sure does bear reading and thinking about.
Not so long ago there was a thread about dual citizenships in this forum. If I had been thinking then, I would have brought this thing by Teddy up then but it slipped my mind.
If Teddy could see this in 1915....and articulate his views as he did....then perhaps the societal changes since then have not been for the best of the country that does not cling to such concepts regarding citizenship and patriotism for what ever reason or whatever country it might be.
Perhaps if you slowed your speed reading pace and devoted some time towards comprehension, you might find the 100 year old crap a bit more timely than it would appear.
Teddy in the context of Americanism said much what Jacko and several others here see as being the root of the terrorism problem the UK faces now and other EU nations are also experiencing.
It does not make Teddy right, a reader of the future, but it sure does bear reading and thinking about.
Not so long ago there was a thread about dual citizenships in this forum. If I had been thinking then, I would have brought this thing by Teddy up then but it slipped my mind.
If Teddy could see this in 1915....and articulate his views as he did....then perhaps the societal changes since then have not been for the best of the country that does not cling to such concepts regarding citizenship and patriotism for what ever reason or whatever country it might be.