Dual Citizenship....and dying for your country??
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That's why I find Sztoggy's intimation that he'd switch sides if it weren't convenient so odious.
or to make it even cloudier, suppose you were a German and you thought you were part of a master race so you fought for them, but then after a while the scales fell from your eyes as you began to see what was really going on. Would some sort of re-alignment of your priorities be equally odius?
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Originally Posted by Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
what if...something like you were Russian, but living in Germany in 1940 ish and you jioined the German army, but then later they invaded Russia. Would that make a difference?
or to make it even cloudier, suppose you were a German and you thought you were part of a master race so you fought for them, but then after a while the scales fell from your eyes as you began to see what was really going on. Would some sort of re-alignment of your priorities be equally odius?
or to make it even cloudier, suppose you were a German and you thought you were part of a master race so you fought for them, but then after a while the scales fell from your eyes as you began to see what was really going on. Would some sort of re-alignment of your priorities be equally odius?
Second example: Assuming being a line Army, Air Force or Naval member, then yes, you have a duty which most of them performed. Doesn't make them evil or wrong, they were trying to perform their duty. Fortunately, they lost. Please don't throw in the SS/Gestapo and whomever else was in the mass-murder business to my point because then one enters into the "illegal order" game and the Hamster Wheel starts spinning!
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But that is not what is happening here A....gh. Sztoggy is saying that he will only honour his oath and obligations to the French flag if it suits him and he agrees with the French policy, he is stating his intentions before he has to make any decision, no Damascene conversion here then, is there?
Dual nationals fighting for Israel are actually fighting for the survival of the Jewish faith in it's homeland more so than a particular country, I think, for what it is worth.
Again, a personal view, but I can't help thinking that the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, by cross border raiding parties into Israel, from Gaza and south Lebanon is all part of a bigger plan by Syria and Iran to have an all out war against Israel. Syria seem to be doing as much as they can to provoke an 'incident' that they will claim is an attack from Israel and then Iran will enter the fray too.
Possible outcome, Iran enters the war, Israel carry out a limited nuclear attack on Iran and threaten Syria with the same, all sides withdraw behind their borders, claiming victory, to lick their wounds and work out another plan aimed at removing Israel from the map.
Dual nationals fighting for Israel are actually fighting for the survival of the Jewish faith in it's homeland more so than a particular country, I think, for what it is worth.
Again, a personal view, but I can't help thinking that the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, by cross border raiding parties into Israel, from Gaza and south Lebanon is all part of a bigger plan by Syria and Iran to have an all out war against Israel. Syria seem to be doing as much as they can to provoke an 'incident' that they will claim is an attack from Israel and then Iran will enter the fray too.
Possible outcome, Iran enters the war, Israel carry out a limited nuclear attack on Iran and threaten Syria with the same, all sides withdraw behind their borders, claiming victory, to lick their wounds and work out another plan aimed at removing Israel from the map.
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Para.....
Sorry mate, to politically motivated response and there are plenty of other areas in these forums that you can explain your opinion on the Israeli or Palestinian tactics.
I have been very intersted in the responses so far and the diversity of backgrounds making them. Whilst I have not changed my opinion on the Dual Citizenship issue, I certainly now have a better understanding of the motives behind other peoples devotion and commitment to multiple country obligations.
I have been very intersted in the responses so far and the diversity of backgrounds making them. Whilst I have not changed my opinion on the Dual Citizenship issue, I certainly now have a better understanding of the motives behind other peoples devotion and commitment to multiple country obligations.
Cowboy rules are simple...."You ride for the brand.....you ride for the brand!"
Simply put....you are in or out....no gray to it. You raise your hand and take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the USA....you are an American.
You may have British roots....but you are an American....either accept that concept or pack yer bags. There's no feet to it Roady....the saying "These colors do not run!" mean something. Enjoy your freedom here and prosperity here....someday it might be your turn to defend it. Either be willing to do so or renounce your new citizenship and revert to being British or whatever you were.
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.
Simply put....you are in or out....no gray to it. You raise your hand and take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the USA....you are an American.
You may have British roots....but you are an American....either accept that concept or pack yer bags. There's no feet to it Roady....the saying "These colors do not run!" mean something. Enjoy your freedom here and prosperity here....someday it might be your turn to defend it. Either be willing to do so or renounce your new citizenship and revert to being British or whatever you were.
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.
My Uncles never needed one to tour Europe.....of course they went ashore at Normandy and spent Christmas in Bastogne. They suggested the summer in Germany was really keen.
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To be more clear, I never said that I would choose the orders to wich I would obei or not. I just admitted that IF France, the country for wich I'm serving, had to take position AGAINST my other country, (Lebanon), it's more than probable that I won't be able to obei...wich is quite different.
During conflicts you have to feel a kind of patriotism. Today, it's my second nation that is in pain, and I feel a need to serve it in a way.
As I belong to the French army, wich is probably gonna be engaged in Lebanon, I'd be pleased to be a part of it, especially since I agree with the french policy regarding this situation. I never said anything else than this...
Otherwise, for those who still feel disturbed by my attitude, they might try to call my boss to give him the details...
During conflicts you have to feel a kind of patriotism. Today, it's my second nation that is in pain, and I feel a need to serve it in a way.
As I belong to the French army, wich is probably gonna be engaged in Lebanon, I'd be pleased to be a part of it, especially since I agree with the french policy regarding this situation. I never said anything else than this...
Otherwise, for those who still feel disturbed by my attitude, they might try to call my boss to give him the details...
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Originally Posted by Sztoggy
To be more clear, I never said that I would choose the orders to wich I would obei or not. I just admitted that IF France, the country for wich I'm serving, had to take position AGAINST my other country, (Lebanon), it's more than probable that I won't be able to obei...wich is quite different.
The highlighted words are what really troubles me about your posts. What if France does have to take a different position? What will you do? As you voluntarily joined France's military and gave whatever oath, signed whatever agreement, joined of your own free will, doesn't France have the right to depend on your loyalty in action?
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Thread's probably reached it's use by date - but thanks Brick. Haven't felt the need to jump in again, because you've said it all for me, and probably better than I could have too...
cheers
SW
cheers
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Foreign Legion
Didnīt French Foreign Legion have a clear principle that the soldiers can be excused from serving against their native country - that they are only sworn to fight for France against every third country?
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Originally Posted by brickhistory
The highlighted words are what really troubles me about your posts. What if France does have to take a different position? What will you do? As you voluntarily joined France's military and gave whatever oath, signed whatever agreement, joined of your own free will, doesn't France have the right to depend on your loyalty in action?
I volunteered for some reasons. Considering that these reasons are not existing anymore (for instance, France no more representating my values), I'll definitly unvolunteer, with all the consequences.
But let's give it up, we are quite far from such a situation. That was just to say that as I see my face in the mirror every morning, I preffer not to act as a prositute for my country, but as a minded being, even if it's far from the definition of soldier...
Right On
to Quote SAS;
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.
If only some of the other nations that have (have had) their "citizens" in Lebanon this past few weeks did not pander to nancy wancy nimbys and do-gooders that want to pander to "multiculturism" and "intergration" then the whole place would be better.
If you want to live in another country other than the one you were born/raised in then you accecpt their way of life.
Full STOP
If your personal cultural perspectives differ then I believe you have picked the wrong country, and if your culture or home land is so good....why leave?
If you want long lunches and funny food...... Go to France
If you want a relaxed lifestyle and sunshine.... Go to Australia
If you want a consumer fed hussle and bussle... Go to America
If you want a muslim society......Go to Saudi Arabia
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.
If only some of the other nations that have (have had) their "citizens" in Lebanon this past few weeks did not pander to nancy wancy nimbys and do-gooders that want to pander to "multiculturism" and "intergration" then the whole place would be better.
If you want to live in another country other than the one you were born/raised in then you accecpt their way of life.
Full STOP
If your personal cultural perspectives differ then I believe you have picked the wrong country, and if your culture or home land is so good....why leave?
If you want long lunches and funny food...... Go to France
If you want a relaxed lifestyle and sunshine.... Go to Australia
If you want a consumer fed hussle and bussle... Go to America
If you want a muslim society......Go to Saudi Arabia
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Well, tell me how do you decide were to be born and were to be raised, unless you're delivererd from a sperm bank to the place you expected to be ??
You can't decide anything about your origins and the culture you'll receive.
And it's possible to be attached to 2 different countries, whatever you may think.
I hold a dual citizenship, and I would die for both of my countries.
A war between them should happen, I'd be forced to choose a camp according to my values, trying to protect the right one against the one that sees to be wrong to me. It already happened many times during WWII.
Stop talking like binary droids from star wars for god sake ! Life is not black or white.
You can't decide anything about your origins and the culture you'll receive.
And it's possible to be attached to 2 different countries, whatever you may think.
I hold a dual citizenship, and I would die for both of my countries.
A war between them should happen, I'd be forced to choose a camp according to my values, trying to protect the right one against the one that sees to be wrong to me. It already happened many times during WWII.
Stop talking like binary droids from star wars for god sake ! Life is not black or white.
"Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel"
Dr Samuel Johnson.
The sooner the thing is consigned to the history books the better. How can you be proud of something that is not an achievment and that you have absolutely no choice over whatsoever?
Pr00ne
Dr Samuel Johnson.
The sooner the thing is consigned to the history books the better. How can you be proud of something that is not an achievment and that you have absolutely no choice over whatsoever?
Pr00ne
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Originally Posted by Sztoggy
Yes France has the right, but what if I preffer to take the left ?
I volunteered for some reasons. Considering that these reasons are not existing anymore (for instance, France no more representating my values), I'll definitly unvolunteer, with all the consequences.
But let's give it up, we are quite far from such a situation. That was just to say that as I see my face in the mirror every morning, I preffer not to act as a prositute for my country, but as a minded being, even if it's far from the definition of soldier...
I volunteered for some reasons. Considering that these reasons are not existing anymore (for instance, France no more representating my values), I'll definitly unvolunteer, with all the consequences.
But let's give it up, we are quite far from such a situation. That was just to say that as I see my face in the mirror every morning, I preffer not to act as a prositute for my country, but as a minded being, even if it's far from the definition of soldier...
Sztoggy,
I'm exiting this particular Hamster Wheel after this post. I truly hope you aren't faced with having to choose between France, the country you agreed to serve and Lebanon, your place of birth. If you do have to make such a decision, and you say you will accept the consequences, then so be it.
Umm, regarding the "prostitution" thing....are you not being being paid by France to do the duties she has called upon you to perform thus far? If the answer is yes, then, sir, all we are discussing is the price, not the job description!
Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.
However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.
However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.
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Originally Posted by brickhistory
Umm, regarding the "prostitution" thing....are you not being being paid by France to do the duties she has called upon you to perform thus far? If the answer is yes, then, sir, all we are discussing is the price, not the job description!
), in order to mean that it's not because I'm paid and that I volunteered, that the nation has all the right regarding my acts...It means that, even if I'm not supposed to think about the orders, I'm a human being, and I can't help thinking (I know, it might be surprising...)
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Originally Posted by SASless
Cowboy rules are simple...."You ride for the brand.....you ride for the brand!"
Simply put....you are in or out....no gray to it. You raise your hand and take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the USA....you are an American.
You may have British roots....but you are an American....either accept that concept or pack yer bags. There's no feet to it Roady....the saying "These colors do not run!" mean something. Enjoy your freedom here and prosperity here....someday it might be your turn to defend it. Either be willing to do so or renounce your new citizenship and revert to being British or whatever you were.
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.
Simply put....you are in or out....no gray to it. You raise your hand and take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the USA....you are an American.
You may have British roots....but you are an American....either accept that concept or pack yer bags. There's no feet to it Roady....the saying "These colors do not run!" mean something. Enjoy your freedom here and prosperity here....someday it might be your turn to defend it. Either be willing to do so or renounce your new citizenship and revert to being British or whatever you were.
Being "American" is more than holding a passport with USA stamped on it.