Lebanon Operations, Strikes, and Evacuation Discussions (Merged)
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This is a very crap situation for the Lebanese. I've been to Beirut loads of times (was actually booking an AF flight the day this all kicked off, glad I held off to check on dates!) and it's a great place.
The weather's fab, the scenery is interesting, the bars, clubs and restaurants put to shame those in this country and the women - jeez don't even get me started on how many Lebanese women I've wanted to marry....
From the many Lebanese I've met, they seem to just want to live their lives in peace. It's just a crying shame that essentially external influences (Syria, Iran, Isreal, the US) are playing out their games on Lebanese soil.
My fillet steak on the top floor restaurant at the Intercontinental will have to wait, it seems...
The weather's fab, the scenery is interesting, the bars, clubs and restaurants put to shame those in this country and the women - jeez don't even get me started on how many Lebanese women I've wanted to marry....
From the many Lebanese I've met, they seem to just want to live their lives in peace. It's just a crying shame that essentially external influences (Syria, Iran, Isreal, the US) are playing out their games on Lebanese soil.
My fillet steak on the top floor restaurant at the Intercontinental will have to wait, it seems...
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Thanks LukeyLad.
SASless- Chilling and frightening yet accurate and startlingly perceptive. It just goes to show that,and I'm eating my words from previous thread contributions I have made, the only Western leader to have learnt anything from history is GWB! Blair and the rest of the European 'Ostriches' have learnt nothing about appeasement. It's quite amazing that history repeats itself, outrageous that no one is doing anything about it. So typically European yet so typically un-British.
Roadster- Ditto.
Climebear.
I agree totally but whatever the composition of any UN Mandated Force, it would have a much better chance of success if Hezbollah was completely neutralised prior to the UN's deployment to the area.
Srebrenica would have been a differant outcome if NATO/UN had offered strong arm support against the Serbs and thinned their numbers out prior to the confrontation which led the Dutch peacekeepers witnessing one of the darkest chapters in European history since the end of hostilities in May 1945.
Just a thought.
SASless- Chilling and frightening yet accurate and startlingly perceptive. It just goes to show that,and I'm eating my words from previous thread contributions I have made, the only Western leader to have learnt anything from history is GWB! Blair and the rest of the European 'Ostriches' have learnt nothing about appeasement. It's quite amazing that history repeats itself, outrageous that no one is doing anything about it. So typically European yet so typically un-British.
Roadster- Ditto.
Climebear.
I agree totally but whatever the composition of any UN Mandated Force, it would have a much better chance of success if Hezbollah was completely neutralised prior to the UN's deployment to the area.
Srebrenica would have been a differant outcome if NATO/UN had offered strong arm support against the Serbs and thinned their numbers out prior to the confrontation which led the Dutch peacekeepers witnessing one of the darkest chapters in European history since the end of hostilities in May 1945.
Just a thought.
Last edited by Pontious; 18th Jul 2006 at 10:39.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I think you´ll find that Hezbollah are an indigenous, not external Lebanese militia.
UN Resolution 1559 demanded not only the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, but amongst other things, the disarming of Hezbollah. Whether through an inability or a reluctance to do so, or probably a mixture of both, the Lebanese government consistently declined to do so.
On December 27, 2005 Katyusha rockets fired from Hezbollah territory hit the Israeli city of Kiryat Shmona. The UN called on the Lebanese government "to extend its control over all its territory, to exert its monopoly on the use of force, and to put an end to all such attacks". It again failed to do so.
Hezbollah has been taking an increasingly strident attitude towards Israel at the behest of the backers, Iran, who have also been increasingly arming them with long range offensive armaments. They claim to have over 10,000 rockets, of various types, and have an increasing capability.
Now, the UN and ousiders may have been willing to cut Lebanon some slack over this, but Israel was not. And the raid into Israel may have been the last straw, or the excuse they were looking for.
Whichever, because the Hezbollah are a native Lebanese organisation, and part of the government, Lebanon cannot be seen as an innocent party - even if a fatally divided one.
UN Resolution 1559 demanded not only the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, but amongst other things, the disarming of Hezbollah. Whether through an inability or a reluctance to do so, or probably a mixture of both, the Lebanese government consistently declined to do so.
On December 27, 2005 Katyusha rockets fired from Hezbollah territory hit the Israeli city of Kiryat Shmona. The UN called on the Lebanese government "to extend its control over all its territory, to exert its monopoly on the use of force, and to put an end to all such attacks". It again failed to do so.
Hezbollah has been taking an increasingly strident attitude towards Israel at the behest of the backers, Iran, who have also been increasingly arming them with long range offensive armaments. They claim to have over 10,000 rockets, of various types, and have an increasing capability.
Now, the UN and ousiders may have been willing to cut Lebanon some slack over this, but Israel was not. And the raid into Israel may have been the last straw, or the excuse they were looking for.
Whichever, because the Hezbollah are a native Lebanese organisation, and part of the government, Lebanon cannot be seen as an innocent party - even if a fatally divided one.
Last edited by ORAC; 18th Jul 2006 at 11:30.
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BBC seeks Chinook pilot
BBC Reporter seeks former Chinook pilot/aircrew to talk about the aircraft's possible role in Lebanon evacuation. It's for a radio interview tomorrow morning - but please call Dominic Blake at BBC South 02392 811076 or 07764 354 901 asap. Regards, DB
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From the BBC.
Now being a cynic, which European countries will come rushing to the aid of the Lebanon?
Answers on the back of a postage stamp to No10 Downing St please.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he expects European nations to contribute troops to a proposed stabilisation force to end the fighting.
"It is urgent that the international community acts to make a difference on the ground," Mr Annan told reporters in Brussels.
"It is urgent that the international community acts to make a difference on the ground," Mr Annan told reporters in Brussels.
Answers on the back of a postage stamp to No10 Downing St please.
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Originally Posted by reverserunlocked
From the many Lebanese I've met, they seem to just want to live their lives in peace.
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Did any one notice that the 2 chinooks on the news had the union jack on them. Were these added on for this operation ??
Lest one becomes the victim of a weapon handled by a scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Union Jack or Flag. It reallt does make no difference.
...."It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".
...."It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".
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Originally Posted by 7gcbc
When one operates in such a volatile and nervous area, it is wise to display in big plain and easy to identify symbols to whom you are allied with.
Lest one becomes the victim of a weapon handled by a scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth.
Lest one becomes the victim of a weapon handled by a scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth.
Of course, he could just put the RPG down.......
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and you assume the scared youth is non-Israeli ? such is your agility of thought.
pendant , I think you'll find.
Only makes a difference if being flown as a pedant.....
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In jack-speak/fishead-speak, a jack is a small flag normally worn on the jackstaff. In days of old, a flag was really big and worn on the mainmast.
ORAC
I quite liked your word play on pendant.
ORAC
I quite liked your word play on pendant.
Pontius,
I fear the Western Democracies have allowed their distaste for War to prevent them from seeing that War is sometimes the only response to a threat. Just as in fighting forest fires, a rapid, overwhelming early response prevents the fire from becoming a large and costly event.
Perhaps, we took the wrong view by down sizing our military capabilities and willingess to maintain that overwhelming response capability and now the threat sees us as being vulnerable.
Far better we waste vast sums of money maintaining a strong military and never use it in war than to waste vast sums of money running to hotspots pitching buckets of water onto fires rather than making them all ten alarm fires.
Do you think Iran, Syria, and their proxies would be doing what they are now if they knew with certainty we in the West had the will and capability to conquer them as was done in the old days?
We have allowed ourselves to become weak and thus have become vulnerable.
Starting with the embassy bombings in Lebanon and the Marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US Servicemen, we have never gone after Hizbollah. No wonder they think little of us.
I fear the Western Democracies have allowed their distaste for War to prevent them from seeing that War is sometimes the only response to a threat. Just as in fighting forest fires, a rapid, overwhelming early response prevents the fire from becoming a large and costly event.
Perhaps, we took the wrong view by down sizing our military capabilities and willingess to maintain that overwhelming response capability and now the threat sees us as being vulnerable.
Far better we waste vast sums of money maintaining a strong military and never use it in war than to waste vast sums of money running to hotspots pitching buckets of water onto fires rather than making them all ten alarm fires.
Do you think Iran, Syria, and their proxies would be doing what they are now if they knew with certainty we in the West had the will and capability to conquer them as was done in the old days?
We have allowed ourselves to become weak and thus have become vulnerable.
Starting with the embassy bombings in Lebanon and the Marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US Servicemen, we have never gone after Hizbollah. No wonder they think little of us.
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No wonder they think little of us.
1983, and then an american battleship in it's rage and impotence (who actually cares which one) fired VW-Beetle size shells at the Lebanese hills in a what could only be described as a theraputic excercise.
Is it any wonder they think the way they do , when every opportunity is squandered in an arrogant and mis-informed and unwarranted superiority that somehow they deserve less than we do ?
Perspectives and Perceptions people, thats what keeps one's tooshey alive
