Lebanon Operations, Strikes, and Evacuation Discussions (Merged)
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What I don't understand, is why Israel feels the need to strike back on such a massive scale against an enemy that cannot in any way compete with it in the military might stakes.
I think they are entitled to defend themselves if they are attacked and it's admirable that they would take the kidnapping of their soldiers and murder of their civillians so seriously (we should all wish for that level of commitment from our government).
The real problem is the arabs are protrayed as living in poverty and squalor, as a third world nation and then you have Israel pounding seven shades out of them with tanks and F-16's.
The thing is Israel strikes back against civillian targets, maybe because it's the civillian population that makes up the largest part of the enemy forces, but when you look at the situation from the outside I reckon it's easy to see a well armed and funded country, pounding the civillian population of a third world country because of the actions of a few extremists.
I don't think the majority of the public (me included I guess) understand in any great ammount of detail the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict. I can see Israel digging a big hole with regard to peoples opinion of them as a nation. i don't really have an answer because I don't know enough about the situation, if it were up to me I'd just make them share all the land equally and have a nice tea party and all be bestest friends!!
But surely as a powerful nation it is encumbant upon them to make sure any action they take is in proportion...a few other big nations could learn that too.
I stand ready to be corrected by wiser men than me.
I think they are entitled to defend themselves if they are attacked and it's admirable that they would take the kidnapping of their soldiers and murder of their civillians so seriously (we should all wish for that level of commitment from our government).
The real problem is the arabs are protrayed as living in poverty and squalor, as a third world nation and then you have Israel pounding seven shades out of them with tanks and F-16's.
The thing is Israel strikes back against civillian targets, maybe because it's the civillian population that makes up the largest part of the enemy forces, but when you look at the situation from the outside I reckon it's easy to see a well armed and funded country, pounding the civillian population of a third world country because of the actions of a few extremists.
I don't think the majority of the public (me included I guess) understand in any great ammount of detail the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict. I can see Israel digging a big hole with regard to peoples opinion of them as a nation. i don't really have an answer because I don't know enough about the situation, if it were up to me I'd just make them share all the land equally and have a nice tea party and all be bestest friends!!
But surely as a powerful nation it is encumbant upon them to make sure any action they take is in proportion...a few other big nations could learn that too.
I stand ready to be corrected by wiser men than me.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Ahh yes. The Impartial UNIFIL. They donīt exactly have a good track record concerning the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers by Hizbollah....... 
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Originally Posted by Tigs2
But
Did you know in 1967
The UN passed a resolution number 242 that Israel MUST withdraw from the occupied territories.
Did you know in 1967
The UN passed a resolution number 242 that Israel MUST withdraw from the occupied territories.
TAC Int Bloke
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What I don't understand, is why Israel feels the need to strike back on such a massive scale against an enemy that cannot in any way compete with it in the military might stakes.
I suppose if you steal a country
So, if you claim the Jews have no right to their own state on land that was historically theirs then you must accept that Palestinians also lose historical rights to land……unless it’s different for them?
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As I see it; bad people are doing bad things to Israel. The said bad people are operating inside the Lebanon. The bad people are bigger and badder than the Lebanese Government and its armed forces. The bad people have representatives in the Lebanese Parliament but not in the Government. The Bad people in the Parliament arent as clever as the Irish and didnt give their political wing a separate identity.
Leaving aside the matter of responsibility or commitment to prevent hostile, illegal acts within their borders, what are the Lebanese supposed to do? Commit suicide?
The analogue has been used elsewhere but still holds good; when the PIRA used to hit us from across the Border, did we set the RAF on the Republic of Irelands assets and infrastructure? Even though, at the time, the Irish constitution was committed to a unified Ireland; of course we didnt. Wed learned several decades earlier that it wasnt the way to counter the threat. The Israeli cause would be better served by inserting (illegally) men with boots and rifles and engaging the terrs head on. The Israeli losses would be significant but at least it would possess some morality. As for the complete disregard for the safety of Foreign Nationals; well, thats a whole new conversation.
Leaving aside the matter of responsibility or commitment to prevent hostile, illegal acts within their borders, what are the Lebanese supposed to do? Commit suicide?
The analogue has been used elsewhere but still holds good; when the PIRA used to hit us from across the Border, did we set the RAF on the Republic of Irelands assets and infrastructure? Even though, at the time, the Irish constitution was committed to a unified Ireland; of course we didnt. Wed learned several decades earlier that it wasnt the way to counter the threat. The Israeli cause would be better served by inserting (illegally) men with boots and rifles and engaging the terrs head on. The Israeli losses would be significant but at least it would possess some morality. As for the complete disregard for the safety of Foreign Nationals; well, thats a whole new conversation.
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Originally Posted by Maple 01
Steal? Remind me who lived in Judea - er
..
So, if you claim the Jews have no right to their own state on land that was historically theirs then you must accept that Palestinians also lose historical rights to land unless its different for them?
So, if you claim the Jews have no right to their own state on land that was historically theirs then you must accept that Palestinians also lose historical rights to land unless its different for them?
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Maple,
Taken in the wrong context me thinks, I wasn't implying Israel should give anyone a fighting chance. the point I was leading to was about public perception of their actions and how that might harm their longer term goals.
I'm not taking sides I think they are all a bunch of nutters
Taken in the wrong context me thinks, I wasn't implying Israel should give anyone a fighting chance. the point I was leading to was about public perception of their actions and how that might harm their longer term goals.
I'm not taking sides I think they are all a bunch of nutters
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Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
Bottom line on why Israel doesn't comply with UN resolution 242; The US is the biggest player at the UN, the US is run by rich, powerful Jewish people, rich and powerful Jewish people don't want Israel to 'concede' occupied lands.
Of course no doubt my comments will be seen as anti-semitic, the easiest stone to throw when talking about Israel and its US funded state-sponsored terrorism. Of course the US wouldn't understand that though as terrorism only happens when a plane flies into one of their buildings.
Good to see Israel using a like for like method of retailation. I'm not sure if using an Apache to stop a vehicle in a crowded marketplace is covered by our ROE's though.
Of course no doubt my comments will be seen as anti-semitic, the easiest stone to throw when talking about Israel and its US funded state-sponsored terrorism. Of course the US wouldn't understand that though as terrorism only happens when a plane flies into one of their buildings.
Good to see Israel using a like for like method of retailation. I'm not sure if using an Apache to stop a vehicle in a crowded marketplace is covered by our ROE's though.
Lyndon, Lyndon LaRouche, is that you?
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Originally Posted by Moe Syzlak
I suppose if you steal a country you should expect to take a few hits. As for the "unacceptable" kidnapping of soldiers- the Hagena took 2 brits in '48, tortured them, murdered them, boobytrapped their bodies and left them festering in the sun tied to trees. I'm glad I don't live there.
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Originally Posted by CSilvera
What is the "Hagena?" Do you have a cite for the incident to which you refer (Not that this has anything to do with the UN/Israel)?
Then you might understand.
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Originally Posted by microlight AV8R
I suggest you do some searches ; Hagannah / Stern Group activities during the British Palestinian Mandate 1945-47.
Then you might understand.
Then you might understand.
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Originally Posted by microlight AV8R
I suggest you do some searches ; Hagannah / Stern Group activities during the British Palestinian Mandate 1945-47.
Then you might understand.
Then you might understand.
I am fully aware of the history, and my comments still stand; not really sure why an isolated incident 60 years ago is relevant to destroying Hezbollah terrorists.
You seem to be confusing Jewish liberation fighters with Iran funded terrorists intents on destroying a sovereign state through the most barbaric means. It's pretty clear to me.
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Evacuation
The BBC reports the
Does this mean the elderly or ill; or vulnerable being the embassy?
SOURCE
most vulnerable being flown by helicopter from north of Beirut to Cyprus.
SOURCE
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It confirmed that a "fleet" of Chinook helicopters had been deployed from RAF Odiham in Hampshire...
Red On, Green On
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Playing the Devil's Advicate here -
Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.
Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.
Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?
Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.
Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.
Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?
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Originally Posted by airborne_artist
Playing the Devil's Advicate here -
Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.
Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.
Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?
Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.
Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.
Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?
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Errr, I'll try again.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 17th Jul 2006 at 14:24.
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Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
CPS - "Why did you fire 7 rounds into the suspect?"
Copper - "Because my pistol jammed".
It does seem strange when troops who served in Iraq have their identities splashed across the press and are hounded by the CPS over an alleged murder that had no body, no witnesses and no motive whereas a few coppers who definately need to read up the white card ROE's 'get away' with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent by-stander in a London tube station.
No I wasn't there at the tube station but I've been on top cover in Iraq a in a couple of hairy situations where the first concern that popped into my head was "will I be dragged over the coals if I have to use my weapon here?"
Copper - "Because my pistol jammed".
It does seem strange when troops who served in Iraq have their identities splashed across the press and are hounded by the CPS over an alleged murder that had no body, no witnesses and no motive whereas a few coppers who definately need to read up the white card ROE's 'get away' with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent by-stander in a London tube station.
No I wasn't there at the tube station but I've been on top cover in Iraq a in a couple of hairy situations where the first concern that popped into my head was "will I be dragged over the coals if I have to use my weapon here?"