Lebanon Operations, Strikes, and Evacuation Discussions (Merged)
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And why not, it's a great place.
Fantastic food, cheap hotels, great weather and friendly people. Plus it's a short ferry ride from Akki when APC is getting too much!
But then I suppose they must all be terrorists huh?
Bigot.
Fantastic food, cheap hotels, great weather and friendly people. Plus it's a short ferry ride from Akki when APC is getting too much!
But then I suppose they must all be terrorists huh?
Bigot.
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Silkworm
An Israeli friend in the Naval Reserve has told me that it was a Silkworm - possibly supplied by Iran? The excellent Wikipedia encyclopedia has already written the attack up on its site - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm_missile
JB
JB
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How is asking if all these citizens are on holiday in Lebanon being bigoted?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigoted
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigoted
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Why UK citizens in Lebanon ? Easy: It is a major trading crossroads in the middle east. Was referred to as being the Switzerland of that part of the world before the previous war which laid waste to a once prosperous country.
Unfortunately the actions of a relatively small group of people once again threaten to drag this country into the abyss.
Unfortunately the actions of a relatively small group of people once again threaten to drag this country into the abyss.
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Originally Posted by Guernsey Girl II
Ah RFAs.. Just because the CVS can do 25 Kts can the RFA? To that point can Bulwark do anywhere near that speed in the Med in mid summer too?
As for the no host nation support required line... Where is the RFA going to find all the Avter and Diesel (for Bulwark) Not the WSBA by any chance?
As for the no host nation support required line... Where is the RFA going to find all the Avter and Diesel (for Bulwark) Not the WSBA by any chance?
They can be there in 72 hours, give or take a few (you need to RAS (Replenishment At Sea) at a slower speed. Within range, air cover will go up and can start the ferrying process at the ship closes final destination. Maintaining top speed is not a problem, just requires enhanced watchkeeping, but the guys are no strangers to being tired - and there are no maximum hours working directives for them either!
It's going to be a multi-service op, so I don't know why some of the more blinkered on here persist in pretending that it's RN only, or that it proves that we don't need the RAF!
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Originally Posted by maxy101
Makes you wonder what all these UK citizens were doing out in the Lebanon...they can't all be on holiday can they?
Then again, it goes pear shaped sometimes, as it has now.
I would put my money on there being a small US Navy/Marine presence there that might assist the Royal Navy/Marine units.
Perhaps we could road march the 3rd ID and 4th ID up from Iraq and provide some serious boots on the ground. That was something I proposed a couple of years ago...what with it being much shorter a sea voyage to the USA if one starts at Beirut rather than Kuwait.
Perhaps we could road march the 3rd ID and 4th ID up from Iraq and provide some serious boots on the ground. That was something I proposed a couple of years ago...what with it being much shorter a sea voyage to the USA if one starts at Beirut rather than Kuwait.
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Pompey Sailor shipmate,
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.
However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1
P.S. How will the CVS fuel hop on station? It's a long way to Souda Bay
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.
However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1
As usual we send a carrier because its the best unit for the job, despite there being an RAF base only a few hundred miles away. Yet more evidence as to why carriers are essential in the modern world.
Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?
Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?
Fuel hopping isn't an issue - thats what we have tankers for, and Souda Bay isnt that far away to go and top up the tanker. We can also use other NATO assets to refuel.
Furthermore, while I have no doubt that we could get a couple of Helos in to Beirut quickly, it will almost certainly take more than 3 days to get the spares, kit, personnel and everything else needed to support them into place - unless of course Akrotiri is kitted out to support a large SHF op at no notice? The CVS will turn up with all its kit ready to go on the spot, so we have the choice between essentially an almost immediate show of force, backed up by a long wait to get all the kit in place, or 72hrs delay but with everything you want, and unconstrained by being based on land in a warzone.
Furthermore, while I have no doubt that we could get a couple of Helos in to Beirut quickly, it will almost certainly take more than 3 days to get the spares, kit, personnel and everything else needed to support them into place - unless of course Akrotiri is kitted out to support a large SHF op at no notice? The CVS will turn up with all its kit ready to go on the spot, so we have the choice between essentially an almost immediate show of force, backed up by a long wait to get all the kit in place, or 72hrs delay but with everything you want, and unconstrained by being based on land in a warzone.
Red On, Green On
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It's about now that the overstretch, particularly of RW assets, will start to show.
Article in the Telegraph today saying the the PoW had asked DefSec 6 months ago about the lack of air support in Afgahnistan.
War on two fronts plus a no-notice civilian evacuation =
Article in the Telegraph today saying the the PoW had asked DefSec 6 months ago about the lack of air support in Afgahnistan.
War on two fronts plus a no-notice civilian evacuation =
Last edited by airborne_artist; 16th Jul 2006 at 15:08.
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Originally Posted by Guernsey Girl II
Pompey Sailor shipmate,
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.
However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1 P.S. How will the CVS fuel hop on station? It's a long way to Souda Bay
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.
However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1 P.S. How will the CVS fuel hop on station? It's a long way to Souda Bay
The CVS' have the ability to set up for this on the move, the stores required for an evac are not massive - the evacuees will not expect, or get, hotel standard services. Failing that, the CVS has the ability to act as a mobile "hop-off" point for the RAF to land on, fuel, and keep taxiing these people to the nearest safe land (Cyprus, Turkey, Egypt) for onmove. The op won't be purely military, HMG will be co-opting civilian transport as well to get people back to the UK. Best will in the world, a CVS won't take 10,000 people!
Re the "I'm quicker than you are", or "don't worry the Navy's here" argument from jimlad etc.
At about 1800 on 6 Sep 83 7 Sqn was tasked to deploy to Beirut (at the start of the last bit of unpleasantness). I lifted from Odiham approx 0530 the following morning with one or two (I can't remember now) other Chinooks together with all our groundcrew and basic spares package and we were ready to go into Beirut on the morning of the 9th! (And yes a C-130 did follow with additional crews and bits and pieces that were not immediately available to go when we did).
However, the nature of the task now is quite different. Even tho' the round trip (Akrotiri-Beirut and return) is just over 2 hours with no refuel required, the navy IS required as a full member of the jointery that is our remit these days. It is much easier to run a shuttle to and from a flat top (which also makes a good pax carrier), and then worry about ferrying the multitude back to Akrotiri or Larnaca. In fact just as the navy did with the old Bulwark off Kyrenia during the Cyprus troubles in 74.
The only trouble is of course the rotary assets to do the job. Have we got any Chinooks/Merlins/jungly Sea Kings left untasked/committed to do the job, or do Pumas (despite their poor deck capabilities), ASW and AEW Sea Kings and Merlins (with their reduced pax carrying abilities) get called in?
As a-a says:
.
And what next - more assets required in FI?
At about 1800 on 6 Sep 83 7 Sqn was tasked to deploy to Beirut (at the start of the last bit of unpleasantness). I lifted from Odiham approx 0530 the following morning with one or two (I can't remember now) other Chinooks together with all our groundcrew and basic spares package and we were ready to go into Beirut on the morning of the 9th! (And yes a C-130 did follow with additional crews and bits and pieces that were not immediately available to go when we did).
However, the nature of the task now is quite different. Even tho' the round trip (Akrotiri-Beirut and return) is just over 2 hours with no refuel required, the navy IS required as a full member of the jointery that is our remit these days. It is much easier to run a shuttle to and from a flat top (which also makes a good pax carrier), and then worry about ferrying the multitude back to Akrotiri or Larnaca. In fact just as the navy did with the old Bulwark off Kyrenia during the Cyprus troubles in 74.
The only trouble is of course the rotary assets to do the job. Have we got any Chinooks/Merlins/jungly Sea Kings left untasked/committed to do the job, or do Pumas (despite their poor deck capabilities), ASW and AEW Sea Kings and Merlins (with their reduced pax carrying abilities) get called in?
As a-a says:
now that the overstretch, particularly of RW assets, will start to show
And what next - more assets required in FI?
Last edited by Shackman; 17th Jul 2006 at 16:46.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Pompey wrote
Oh yeah and where will the civilian transport come from, at the busiest period in the summer? Oh for the days when we had 60+ Hercs eh?
I can hear the elastic band snapping from here!!
HMG will be co-opting civilian transport as well to get people back to the UK. Best will in the world, a CVS won't take 10,000 people!
I can hear the elastic band snapping from here!!
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Originally Posted by lukeylad
Civvy transport: One question how they gonna get it in??
the airports out of action they aint gonna charter a channel ferry and just sail it on down.
the airports out of action they aint gonna charter a channel ferry and just sail it on down.
[U]Force Ale
Your comment is as insulting as it is uninformed. Don't know who you have been talking to but 84 Sqn were never destined to be a Merlin Sqn; they are one of the few if not only truely multi-role rotary Sqn in the RAF.
You can bet they already have a plan waiting to roll if an evacuation is called for, either embarked or self supporting from the Eastern side of the island. If only the bean counters had not insisted on removing the pipework for the overload tanks their endurance would have been even better. Not everyone is on holiday at Akrotiri!!
Rant over, back to reasoned discussion
Your comment is as insulting as it is uninformed. Don't know who you have been talking to but 84 Sqn were never destined to be a Merlin Sqn; they are one of the few if not only truely multi-role rotary Sqn in the RAF.
You can bet they already have a plan waiting to roll if an evacuation is called for, either embarked or self supporting from the Eastern side of the island. If only the bean counters had not insisted on removing the pipework for the overload tanks their endurance would have been even better. Not everyone is on holiday at Akrotiri!!
Rant over, back to reasoned discussion
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Originally Posted by vecvechookattack
...also lucky that Bulwark is in Barcelona....Hmmmm that seems very lucky doesn't it... Do you really think it was luck? Or was it a plan?
Bulwark sailed for OIF and Calash in Jan of this year! She was on the way home with a very tired ships company. Bulwark recently lost its "air det" of 2 Lynx but serves as a very capable floating airfield apart from the Chacons on the side.
Also she will make at least 12 kts in that temp if everything remains servicable.
I feel immensly sorry for all the ships company and some of the Wardroom that will remain away.... bit of luck I got off in time!
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Unidentified 'Flat Top'.
Whilst routing up from Sharm el Sheik to El Arish in Egypt last thursday at FL330 I noticed a ship in the Red Sea. It was heading north, small aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier size. Didn't have much of a wake behind it or smoke stack and it didn't seem to be in much of a hurry. Anybody know if the French or Americans have anything in the area. It didn't seem to have an escort but was definately large, grey, flat decked with markings visible through bino's from 5.5 miles up.
Last edited by Pontious; 17th Jul 2006 at 07:32.