I'm Not Going on any Det!!!!!
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Tigs 2
Remember that the Armed Forces are exempt from large areas of UK and European Employment Law (yes the European placed exemptions for their(at the time legislation was being draft - conscript) armed forces too. The amendments are legal because they are Statutory Instruments - as are such items as the Working Time Regulations that apply to a wide range of the population. When the legislature changes things it doesn't need everyone else to agree. The legislature has given the Defence Council the authority to amend through Statutory Instruments - that have to be laid before parliament before they are enacted.
As for challenging, what are your options? Well not Employment Tribunals, Parliament has only given limited scope to hear cases from the Armed Forces (race discrimination, sexual discrimination and equal pay). That leaves the only course of challenge as a Judicial Revue (very expensive and you cannot get legal aid).
The Gorilla is correct there. More have challenged and failed than have challenged and won. For some strange reason lawyers (including Mr Blades) tend to make a great deal of publicizing cases they win but are very quiet about the ones they lose.
One final thing, this is posted to illustrate the current position. Not to illustrate a personal opinion.
Remember that the Armed Forces are exempt from large areas of UK and European Employment Law (yes the European placed exemptions for their(at the time legislation was being draft - conscript) armed forces too. The amendments are legal because they are Statutory Instruments - as are such items as the Working Time Regulations that apply to a wide range of the population. When the legislature changes things it doesn't need everyone else to agree. The legislature has given the Defence Council the authority to amend through Statutory Instruments - that have to be laid before parliament before they are enacted.
As for challenging, what are your options? Well not Employment Tribunals, Parliament has only given limited scope to hear cases from the Armed Forces (race discrimination, sexual discrimination and equal pay). That leaves the only course of challenge as a Judicial Revue (very expensive and you cannot get legal aid).
challenge it and you are guaranteed to win
One final thing, this is posted to illustrate the current position. Not to illustrate a personal opinion.
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southside
Perhaps you should look to the almost empty squadron buildings either side of 702 and the pans that are usually filled with green helos and consider all those who are actually away at the pointy end before you bang on about how great your life back at Yeovs is.
Idiot.
Perhaps you should look to the almost empty squadron buildings either side of 702 and the pans that are usually filled with green helos and consider all those who are actually away at the pointy end before you bang on about how great your life back at Yeovs is.
Idiot.
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Originally Posted by southside
I thought it was now 12 Months notice to leave.
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It should be noted that eg/ the american and aussie welfare policies compared to ours is simply embarassing!!!
oh... and give us our ashes back.
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I can't find any statutory change reducing the time for RAF Notice as a General Right (NGR); the only 12-month wait are for some PVR waiting times.
Could be correct for the RN - like my original post said, I couln't find and RN ToSRs (insert your own line here ......).
Of course in the brave new world of JPA any single-Service variations should be standardised. Wait out.
cornishpixie, no airmen (and no doubt soldiers and marines) can exercise the right at any time after the initial qaulifying service (3 years if my memory serves me correctly). That is the main reason why there is a requirement for an airmen to waive his/her right in writing is they attend a training course that attracts a Training Return of Service.
Could be correct for the RN - like my original post said, I couln't find and RN ToSRs (insert your own line here ......).
Of course in the brave new world of JPA any single-Service variations should be standardised. Wait out.
cornishpixie, no airmen (and no doubt soldiers and marines) can exercise the right at any time after the initial qaulifying service (3 years if my memory serves me correctly). That is the main reason why there is a requirement for an airmen to waive his/her right in writing is they attend a training course that attracts a Training Return of Service.
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I'm not sure you've got that right there Climebear, I don't think an airman is forced to waive any right to NGR. There are laid down requirements for amortizing training, but these would be nowhere near the 18 month period of notice.
jungly, the point the resident troll made was regarding an earlier post in reference to the RAF.
S_H
jungly, the point the resident troll made was regarding an earlier post in reference to the RAF.
S_H
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Southside,
If you have to continue to express your worthless whining, your "facts" and "opinions" gathered in a straw poll in the end trap of the fwd heads demonstrate your vast knowledge of the FAA. I am looking forward to seeing the boys tomorrow, somewhere on the way to the moon according to your good self. I don't know about that but the phrase "Mork calling Orsen" springs to mind loserboy.
For the rest of those with some grasp on reality, the grey fleet so underwhelmingly represented by our favourite troll is in a similar state to many. Not helped now by the upsurge in the comair recruiting.
Now when was my car tax due.............
If you have to continue to express your worthless whining, your "facts" and "opinions" gathered in a straw poll in the end trap of the fwd heads demonstrate your vast knowledge of the FAA. I am looking forward to seeing the boys tomorrow, somewhere on the way to the moon according to your good self. I don't know about that but the phrase "Mork calling Orsen" springs to mind loserboy.
For the rest of those with some grasp on reality, the grey fleet so underwhelmingly represented by our favourite troll is in a similar state to many. Not helped now by the upsurge in the comair recruiting.
Now when was my car tax due.............
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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PVR is a privilege that can be refused at any time. NGR is a statutory right to discharge after giving 18 months notice which I understood was available to all those who have completed 12 years service. Of course things may have changed in the two years since I gained my freedom.
If you do a training course it is your right to NGR that you sign away in order to amortise your training costs. I was told that that the NGR notice period can be altered to suit either party if both consent though I have never seen that in practice. I had to sign a waiver to give three years full service after I did an E3D OCU.
Once upon a time in the bad old days I worked with people who applied to PVR and were turned down time after time. AIUI these days a PVR is rarely refused but the waiting times for release are adhered to within reason.
As for transfers I did come across two ex RN Observers (Seaking chaps I think) who came over to be ALM’s. They had to work their full notice from the RN and then join the RAF. I saw them at Binsworth where they were trying to get the terms of service that they had been promised. As usual they didn’t have any such promises in writing and all that they had been told turned out to be lies. Particularly rates of pay and credit of seniority, they were not happy bunnies!! This was about three years or so ago.
If you do a training course it is your right to NGR that you sign away in order to amortise your training costs. I was told that that the NGR notice period can be altered to suit either party if both consent though I have never seen that in practice. I had to sign a waiver to give three years full service after I did an E3D OCU.
Once upon a time in the bad old days I worked with people who applied to PVR and were turned down time after time. AIUI these days a PVR is rarely refused but the waiting times for release are adhered to within reason.
As for transfers I did come across two ex RN Observers (Seaking chaps I think) who came over to be ALM’s. They had to work their full notice from the RN and then join the RAF. I saw them at Binsworth where they were trying to get the terms of service that they had been promised. As usual they didn’t have any such promises in writing and all that they had been told turned out to be lies. Particularly rates of pay and credit of seniority, they were not happy bunnies!! This was about three years or so ago.
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In normal cases Officers are required to serve a waiting period of 12 months from the date of their application (with the exception of Medical and dental (not sure how the scab lifters managed to negotiate a shorter sentance)).
Officers may apply to leave at less than the normal period but that will be determined by the service requirement and the need to avoid undue turbulence.
So, why do the Army and RAF STILL have to submit 18 months notice when the RN only need to serve 12 months?
Officers may apply to leave at less than the normal period but that will be determined by the service requirement and the need to avoid undue turbulence.
So, why do the Army and RAF STILL have to submit 18 months notice when the RN only need to serve 12 months?
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Southside
It would appear that you have confused too issues here. If you are talking about officers leaving then this is by PVR (not by NGR) where the Services can set the waiting times to suite the manning situation at the time. The same applies to the RAF where several cadres (including airmen) have a waiting time of 12 months and many have shorter waiting times. As the Gorilla states this is something offered by the Services - it is not a right.
Details on NGR arein AP3392 Vol2 Leaflet 708
Technically, the Trg RoS is not to amortize the costs of training. Amortization means to pay back the monetary value of the course; however, it is near impossible to ascertain the exact cost of an individuals aprticipation on an MOD course (there are differing views on where the boundaries of the costs should be drawn). Trg RoS is set at a level that takes into accounrt of both the invsestment placed in an individual (not just in monetary value) and the value of that trained individual to the system. This is why, for insitance, the Army graduates of Islander training have a longer Trg ROS - the comprise such a small cadre of individuals that the Army percieved that that trg justified a longer ROS.
It would appear that you have confused too issues here. If you are talking about officers leaving then this is by PVR (not by NGR) where the Services can set the waiting times to suite the manning situation at the time. The same applies to the RAF where several cadres (including airmen) have a waiting time of 12 months and many have shorter waiting times. As the Gorilla states this is something offered by the Services - it is not a right.
Details on NGR arein AP3392 Vol2 Leaflet 708
GENERAL RIGHT TO GIVE NOTICE
1. This leaflet gives guidance on the submission of applications to the RAF PMA for termination of regular RAF service on giving 18 months notice; see QRs 584(3) and (4).
2. All Engagements. Personnel serving on any type of engagement have the right, on completion of 9 years reckonable service, or at any time thereafter, to give 18 months notice to terminate their regular RAF service. The earliest time at which this right can be effected by giving notice at the 9 year point is therefore, on completion of 10½ years reckonable service. Previous regular whole time service which is reckonable in accordance with QR 3017 will qualify for inclusion when reckoning the length of service necessary to determine eligibility to give notice. Previous service will not however, release personnel from any reserve liability if the engagement on which they are currently serving includes a period in the reserve.
3. Notice Engagements. Personnel serving on Notice Engagements have the right, exercisable at the end of 18 months formal notice, to be transferred to the RAF Reserve of Airmen on completion of 3 years service from the end of basic trade training, or at any time thereafter, and to be given a free discharge at the end of 6 years service in the Reserve.
Note: Personnel who enlisted into the Royal Air Force on a Notice Engagement and who subsequently extend their service retain the right to give notice even though their terms of service change as a result of accepting an offer of further service.
1. This leaflet gives guidance on the submission of applications to the RAF PMA for termination of regular RAF service on giving 18 months notice; see QRs 584(3) and (4).
2. All Engagements. Personnel serving on any type of engagement have the right, on completion of 9 years reckonable service, or at any time thereafter, to give 18 months notice to terminate their regular RAF service. The earliest time at which this right can be effected by giving notice at the 9 year point is therefore, on completion of 10½ years reckonable service. Previous regular whole time service which is reckonable in accordance with QR 3017 will qualify for inclusion when reckoning the length of service necessary to determine eligibility to give notice. Previous service will not however, release personnel from any reserve liability if the engagement on which they are currently serving includes a period in the reserve.
3. Notice Engagements. Personnel serving on Notice Engagements have the right, exercisable at the end of 18 months formal notice, to be transferred to the RAF Reserve of Airmen on completion of 3 years service from the end of basic trade training, or at any time thereafter, and to be given a free discharge at the end of 6 years service in the Reserve.
Note: Personnel who enlisted into the Royal Air Force on a Notice Engagement and who subsequently extend their service retain the right to give notice even though their terms of service change as a result of accepting an offer of further service.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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A play on words, because once you sign the waiver you can put an NGR in if you like but it will not be granted because hey you signed the waiver!!
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Originally Posted by Safety_Helmut
I'm not sure you've got that right there Climebear, I don't think an airman is forced to waive any right to NGR. There are laid down requirements for amortizing training, but these would be nowhere near the 18 month period of notice.
jungly, the point the resident troll made was regarding an earlier post in reference to the RAF.
S_H
jungly, the point the resident troll made was regarding an earlier post in reference to the RAF.
S_H
Morale in the RAF is the lowest i have seen in my 15 years in various trades, trying to find the 'Sense of Worth' the recruiters sold me.
My friends and colleagues are ALL depressed with the job and constant degredation of quality of life. Our families suffer terribly. WHY SHOULD THEY?
Pay stability was the only factor in keeping these high quality individuals in the job. Now JPA screws that up too. Our service people of ALL branches deserve more for the ultimate commitment paid by many far too frequently. READ THE NEWS SOUTHSIDE. People DIE in this job. It isn't about sand, sea and fun days out. It's about respect.
My respect to all you hard working service personnel everywhere. It's an honour to serve with you. Can't wait for it to end though, my family have had their fill.
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Our families suffer terribly
Good god man...Have you informed the press....quick...ring The Sun...I cannot believe that in this day and age the families of servicemen are suffering at the hands of the Government. I find it absolutely disgusting that service families are being denied the very basis of human rights.....
why next minute you will be reporting that they have taken away the cheap Housing, Free 20 minute telephone call per week (subject to limitations of connectivity and EMCON/OPSEC). Calls unable to be made one week can be carried forward to the next. Free e-mail access (subject to limitations of connectivity and EMCON/OPSEC). Free Forces Aerogrammes (blueys) both ways and concessionary parcel rates. Free newspapers and magazines. Free books. Free laundering of uniform clothing. Access to fitness equipment.
Are they also taking away HIVE...?What about the wives clubs? The free coffee mornings, free swimming, free fitness sessions? is that all going?
How about the access to welfare..? are they taking away the free advice on Relationship problems. Bereavement. Debt Advice.
Child Care concerns. Mental Health.Special Needs. NOK Support for Deployed Personnel.Physical illness. Pregnancy complications.
Threy are complete and utter buggers eh? I think its outrageous that the Government should be withdrawing the fully equipped gymnasium & fitness suite complex, an indoor swimming pool, football pitches and tennis courts. Library, Internet computer suite, Barber, NAAFI/Spar shop, Post Office, Tailoress, Chaplaincy, and Motor Centre.
Next you'll be telling me that they are taking away the travel warrants....