Use of ex-Service rank titles
When I was retired, my letter from Gloucester gave me permission to use the title Flt Lt RAFVR(T) Retd., never done so; if I ever did (unlikely) I would make sure I added the VR(T) bit out of respect for you full timers. That said, I bet some ex VR(T) officers 'forget' to add it. They're probably the ones who also enjoy posing in No 5s if they ever go to a formal dinner! Of course, not all ex Flt Lt (Actings) are given this privilege; we're really only Fg Offs after all and you're only allowed to retain acting rank if you've given recognisably good service.
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It must be a Brit affectation: I've never heard of any instance of a previously held rank being used in New Zealand, and a quick scan of the Wellington phone book of three former Chiefs of Air Staff that I am aware of, and one beknighted Chief of Defence Staff shows them all to be plain old initials and name only. I also know locally a former Major General who became had a significant subsequent career after retirement, and only those very closely associated with him know that!
Personally, it would never occur to me to use "Sqn Ldr RNZAF Retd", because it would not only never occur to me, but it would guarantee some pretty strange responses I imagine.
It's good to be 'in', but when you're gone, you're gone!
Personally, it would never occur to me to use "Sqn Ldr RNZAF Retd", because it would not only never occur to me, but it would guarantee some pretty strange responses I imagine.
It's good to be 'in', but when you're gone, you're gone!
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The use of ex-military rank can be useful. We have two managers with exactly the same name so, to distinguish between them, we refer to the one who was previously in the air force as "Major *****".
(Our local Air Force uses the army rank structure)
(Our local Air Force uses the army rank structure)
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mystic Greg wrote
"You keep them, so instead of writing to you as:
'Group Captain J J Wwyvern OBE DFC RAF'
I might write to you as:
'J J Wwyvern, Esq, OBE DFC'"
In fact using their honourific is writing is as complicated as them using it themselves.
If it concerns letters to the local council, signed off Blimp, Col, Rtd, then they might be safely ignored unless it is a very small parish council (pond).
If it is someone military, or ex-military, writing to them then it is polite to use their honourific as Debrett's uses that form. For instance if a mess sec is writing to local kilingon's about the annual face fill jamboree.
It is a question of social form really.
In what is an air force basing area rank awareness, and snobbery, is rife. We had someone on our parish council who did not use his rank, but was known to be some sort of retired sqn ldr. That rumour had started because he ran an 'organisation' that the locals, only partly clued up, believed would be run by a sqn ldr. Gradually as the truth about the retired warrant officer seeped out . . . Another officer retired as a 'wg cdr' and again got demoted when the truth leaked.
It even happened with more senior officer's wives although one ex whose ex now has 3*s got a job as a shelf stacker in the local supermarket. More of a statement really
"You keep them, so instead of writing to you as:
'Group Captain J J Wwyvern OBE DFC RAF'
I might write to you as:
'J J Wwyvern, Esq, OBE DFC'"
In fact using their honourific is writing is as complicated as them using it themselves.
If it concerns letters to the local council, signed off Blimp, Col, Rtd, then they might be safely ignored unless it is a very small parish council (pond).
If it is someone military, or ex-military, writing to them then it is polite to use their honourific as Debrett's uses that form. For instance if a mess sec is writing to local kilingon's about the annual face fill jamboree.
It is a question of social form really.
In what is an air force basing area rank awareness, and snobbery, is rife. We had someone on our parish council who did not use his rank, but was known to be some sort of retired sqn ldr. That rumour had started because he ran an 'organisation' that the locals, only partly clued up, believed would be run by a sqn ldr. Gradually as the truth about the retired warrant officer seeped out . . . Another officer retired as a 'wg cdr' and again got demoted when the truth leaked.
It even happened with more senior officer's wives although one ex whose ex now has 3*s got a job as a shelf stacker in the local supermarket. More of a statement really
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Aeronut - I see what you mean but may I suggest that actually it is the use of military ranks in civilian life that causes the perceived problems. As was said earlier in this thread, few people now have any experience or concept of military life and the use of rank outside just leaves one open to ridicule in some circles. I think it is very sad that some ex service personnel need to hang onto the rank to gain some semblence of acceptance or social status in civilian life.
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It's not only a Brit thing.
A few years ago I inspected a civilian helicopter operator in the Sub Continent. On looking through the Tech Logs for the Captain's signatures, all the pilots had scored out "Captain" in the pre- and post- flight signature blocks and hand written over them "Sqn Ldr" or Wg Cdr".
A few years ago I inspected a civilian helicopter operator in the Sub Continent. On looking through the Tech Logs for the Captain's signatures, all the pilots had scored out "Captain" in the pre- and post- flight signature blocks and hand written over them "Sqn Ldr" or Wg Cdr".
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Using titles after retirement.
It is easy to ridicule ex-officers who sometimes use their rank titles. However, it is officially sanctioned and used to be the norm not so long ago. It is only in the last few decades that it has become contentious. I don't think it is anything to do with snobbery. Probably more to do with pride. Professional pride in ones lifetime achievements, in ones service, in ones unit, in the comrades with whom one served and soldiered.
We carp on about the public not recognising our worth as servicemen, so why be ashamed to acknowledge what we are/were? No one criticises those retired personnel who attend events, reunions etc wearing military symbols such as blazer badges, ties etc. And if a retired doctor, professor, clergyman can still use their identifying title, why not us? Nothing to be ashamed of that you were a professional soldier. If some do tear the arse out of it, that's life.
The public stereotype of a retired colonel or other middle/senior ranking officer is of a blimp. That is because they never knowingly see the real thing, just what appears in Miss Marple, Poirot or what have you on the box. Look at photos of real colonels or blue equivalents in the news: they look like boys. They command a batallion or equivalent in their mid/late 30s and by God they are good at what they do. And they are not a crock when they retire at 55. If Joe Public knew who and what you were, their stereotype might change for the better. So don't be ashamed of using your title on the appropriate occasion.
We carp on about the public not recognising our worth as servicemen, so why be ashamed to acknowledge what we are/were? No one criticises those retired personnel who attend events, reunions etc wearing military symbols such as blazer badges, ties etc. And if a retired doctor, professor, clergyman can still use their identifying title, why not us? Nothing to be ashamed of that you were a professional soldier. If some do tear the arse out of it, that's life.
The public stereotype of a retired colonel or other middle/senior ranking officer is of a blimp. That is because they never knowingly see the real thing, just what appears in Miss Marple, Poirot or what have you on the box. Look at photos of real colonels or blue equivalents in the news: they look like boys. They command a batallion or equivalent in their mid/late 30s and by God they are good at what they do. And they are not a crock when they retire at 55. If Joe Public knew who and what you were, their stereotype might change for the better. So don't be ashamed of using your title on the appropriate occasion.
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Clockwork mouse.
I agree 100%.
How can we expect the respect of civvies if we are not proud of our achievements in the military ourselves.
If you were good enough to be promoted in the military, you should be damn sure that civvies respect you for it.
If only so many complete monkeys weren't promoted nowadays.
I agree 100%.
How can we expect the respect of civvies if we are not proud of our achievements in the military ourselves.
If you were good enough to be promoted in the military, you should be damn sure that civvies respect you for it.
If only so many complete monkeys weren't promoted nowadays.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It does seem to be more of an Army thingy though. Admittedly we had Gp Capt Townsend but then he was active service when he was active and his rank was part of the story.
But besides army horse riders, a captain and a major spring to mind and we also have a retired brigadier too don't we.
But besides army horse riders, a captain and a major spring to mind and we also have a retired brigadier too don't we.
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Pontius Navigator,
The RAF had Gp Capt Leonard Chesire VC, DSO* DFC* who founded the Cheshire Homes; an organisation which is proud of his links with the RAF.
Moreover; the Sue Ryder Homes are also proud - by extension- of their links with Gp Capt Cheshire through his marriage to their Founder.
The RAF had Gp Capt Leonard Chesire VC, DSO* DFC* who founded the Cheshire Homes; an organisation which is proud of his links with the RAF.
Moreover; the Sue Ryder Homes are also proud - by extension- of their links with Gp Capt Cheshire through his marriage to their Founder.
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Should this not have started on 1 April ?
Knew a bumptious git who reached his ceiling as an Air Commodore, as when he was made an AVM, his superior officer did not feel he was worthy of further promotion to AM and had obviously been over promoted to AVM.
He was gutted, as his daddy had been an ACM, and sometime CinC of ****** Command, and who was so good at the job that he had his service specially extended so he could CinC the new ****** Command when it was formed, having amalgamated with another Command....
'Boy' missed out on being a real 'Sir' with a gong, or two...
It really put his nose out of joint..
Spending his retirement tending his roses..
Knew a bumptious git who reached his ceiling as an Air Commodore, as when he was made an AVM, his superior officer did not feel he was worthy of further promotion to AM and had obviously been over promoted to AVM.
He was gutted, as his daddy had been an ACM, and sometime CinC of ****** Command, and who was so good at the job that he had his service specially extended so he could CinC the new ****** Command when it was formed, having amalgamated with another Command....
'Boy' missed out on being a real 'Sir' with a gong, or two...
It really put his nose out of joint..
Spending his retirement tending his roses..
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you mean like major in Fawlty towers ?
http://www.fawltysite.net/ballard-berkeley.htm
"One of my favourite scenes is the one in which The Major thinks he has met a talking moose head: The moose head is sitting on the reception desk whilst Manuel is tidying up behind the desk and practising his English. Just as The Major wanders in from the bar Manuel proudly announces that he can speak English and “How are you Sir”. The Major turns around just as Manuel bends down out of view, thereby thinking he has encountered a talking Moose!"
http://www.fawltysite.net/ballard-berkeley.htm
"One of my favourite scenes is the one in which The Major thinks he has met a talking moose head: The moose head is sitting on the reception desk whilst Manuel is tidying up behind the desk and practising his English. Just as The Major wanders in from the bar Manuel proudly announces that he can speak English and “How are you Sir”. The Major turns around just as Manuel bends down out of view, thereby thinking he has encountered a talking Moose!"
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
gawd, I can hardly remember the Major until you reminded me. How on earth do people both remember the absurd and then have the time and ability to find the reference and the clip?
I know Google is wonderful but it still takes time. On the Vulcan thread I had an idea that an author's name was Antony Gray but didn't want to waste time looking. Someone did!
What service.
And on rank, I tried to stop using mine years ago and only do so when it is necessary for a bit of 'reinforcement' I actually dislike the "Sir" bit even and 1st Nav or boss was far more eglatarian. OTOH we once had a boss who wanted us to call all the airman Ch Tech, SAC etc whereas we knew they rather liked being known by their names - in days pre-name tags.
I know Google is wonderful but it still takes time. On the Vulcan thread I had an idea that an author's name was Antony Gray but didn't want to waste time looking. Someone did!
What service.
And on rank, I tried to stop using mine years ago and only do so when it is necessary for a bit of 'reinforcement' I actually dislike the "Sir" bit even and 1st Nav or boss was far more eglatarian. OTOH we once had a boss who wanted us to call all the airman Ch Tech, SAC etc whereas we knew they rather liked being known by their names - in days pre-name tags.
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LFittNI
I think you have by now got a representative answer to your question. Seems to me that on the whole those who are not entitled by regulations to do it resent those who are entitled doing it. And I certainly don't think the practise is becoming more common; quite the reverse. The public are becoming less aware of what retired service personnel are like and can do.
Unfortunately, by mocking those who do, you and the other cynics are perpetuating the civilian stereotype of retired senior officers as incompetent blimps. After 34 years in the military I can safely say that, though I know some four letter men who were promoted above their ceiling of competence, I do not know any blimps from any service. You do yourself (presuming you are ex-military) no favours in perpetuating this image. Be proud of what we in the British military are and were. I am.
I think you have by now got a representative answer to your question. Seems to me that on the whole those who are not entitled by regulations to do it resent those who are entitled doing it. And I certainly don't think the practise is becoming more common; quite the reverse. The public are becoming less aware of what retired service personnel are like and can do.
Unfortunately, by mocking those who do, you and the other cynics are perpetuating the civilian stereotype of retired senior officers as incompetent blimps. After 34 years in the military I can safely say that, though I know some four letter men who were promoted above their ceiling of competence, I do not know any blimps from any service. You do yourself (presuming you are ex-military) no favours in perpetuating this image. Be proud of what we in the British military are and were. I am.
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Read through and it doesn't seem to have been said before,but as I knew it the ruling in the Army was officially only Major and above could be used when retired,as Major is the first ' Staff ' rank.But being only ex REME could be in for a few corrections!