Air Training Corps

[RayDarr]

Those holding VT(T) commissions do not do the same job as those in the RAF/RAuxAF. They do not hold the same committment, have not received the same training and are not required to reach the same standards. This does not mean they are less worthy, but it does mean they are different. Why therefore should they wear the same uniform and rank. A youth organisation is not a fighting force so why give the people who run it commissions in a fighting force. The fact that the kids are taught air related subjects in a disciplined environment is no reason for youth leaders to hold rank over serving members of the armed forces. Why do it therefore?
Numbers of people on this thread have agreed that they do not feel commissioned, that their commission comes with the cornflakes, that they do not have the confidence to act as officers on RAF stations etc. However, the commission given is the same as that given to our best fast jet pilots. I believe this devalues the purpose of a commission.
I have still not seen anything posted by any person which would show that the ATC/CCF would be any worse an organisation if the VR(T) were to be disbanded and replaced with something else. Keep it uniformed if you like, but give it a different identity so that it is no longer part of the armed forces.
If people want to wear an RAF officer's uniform, fine, join the RAF or the RAuxAF, go through OASC, do the training and wear the uniform with pride. Take the risks regulars take, get called up if a reservist. I have no problem with that. Obtaining a Kellogs commission as one contributer called it is no longer acceptable in the modern era, no matter how well intentioned or motivated a youth leader you are.

[Maple 01]

If people want to wear an RAF officer's uniform, fine, join the RAF or the RAuxAF, go through OASC, do the training and wear the uniform with pride. Take the risks regulars take, get called up if a reservist. I have no problem with that.

Ok Ray, but as a recent retiree who's not allowed in the RAuxAF (med cat) and has just joined the ATC as a CI I'd like to think I'm still part of the RAF Family - and I was happy to take the risks for 22 years. You seem to want to sever the links completely and turn us into 'just another youth group'.

The RAFVR (T) I have come into contact with over the years have been mainly good blokes/lasses with a few to**ers and social climbers thrown in along the way - much like our own dear Airforce. I mourn the passing of Adult WOs who were almost exclusively ex-mob and am not sure how to rate the 'civilians with stripes' I expect the majority are good with a few Walts thrown in.

Point is although the ATC isn't supposed to be a recruiting ground for the RAF it is so how about looking at it like this:

Before = ATC (and therefore led by the VR(T) Officers, 'Plastic' if you must)
During = Reg
After = RAuxAF

Where's the problem? Most know their place in the grand scheme of thing.

Now as to why those CCF bu@@ers wear RAF capbadges........

[Postman Plod]

Hmmm I dont think anyone on here has said they dont feel commissioned, wear their RAF uniform with pride, or have the confidence to act as officers on station? Any that have are probably ATC SNCO's!

Yes, it may be a cornflakes commission, but I think the vast majority - even the walts - take the responsibility seriously! How often do we need to act as an officer on station above and beyond officerly conduct, giving / returning salutes, not taking the piss in the mess, and respecting the uniform, and those around us? Even the lowliest serving airman knows what our status is, and knows perfectly well that we are civvies in uniform. Even the Walts I am aware of have never been seen ordering a regular around, so I'd guess you really have had a bad experience with the VRT in the past....?

I still have not seen anything posted by any person which would show the ATC / CCF / RAF would be any better off if the VRT were disbanded, and re-uniformed / ranked / branded at expense to the defence / public purse. Keep it VRT if you like, as it already has a distinctly different identity to that of its parent service. Dont get me wrong, I dont hugely disagree with what you are essentially saying, but you seem to be suggesting change for changes sake (with costs and disruption involved), where there are other significantly more pressing problems which need addressing in the Corps.

[FormerFlake]

The fact that the kids are taught air related subjects in a disciplined environment is no reason for youth leaders to hold rank over serving members of the armed forces.

The ATC Officers may wear the rank, but they have NO authority over anyone other than ATC/CCF Cadets. All the rank really does is set the pay grade for up to 1 months pay when on sunmer camps etc. To this end the ATC WOs are better of than the Junior Officers as they get more cash!

[dinoorin]

Originally Posted by FormerFlake

To this end the ATC WOs are better of than the Junior Officers as they get more cash!

Well as my old hairy bummed sergeant used to say. 'I work for a living'. Guess thats why the WO's earn more than the lower echelon Ruperts.

[RayDarr]

So, the ATC officers wear the rank but have no authority over anyone other than ATC cadets (FormerFlake). Why then do they need the rank. surely not in order to walk around and give the impression that they are officers. Sorry, that won't do, if you wear the rank, you are an officer, if you don't have any authority you shouldn't wear the rank. Therefore do the same youth leader job with a new non RAF rank. However, seeing as you are all good people doing a worthwhile job, you can come and stay in our mess, and visit our stations, but as civilians in a uniformed youth group.

Yes it may be a cornflake commission (Postman Plod) Your commission is the same as those that I have, but my regular and RAuxAF commissions are most certainly not "cornflake" if the VR(T) get them so easily, they devalue the real thing for those who earned them the hard way. Therefore, to preserve the value of the commission, remove them from the VR(T) and reinvent the branch as a uniformed civilian youth group. Which is in effect what it is already.

If you want a months pay, be uniformed civil servants, but not with service rank. For those who have left the active armed forces. Remember the magic word is "left" if you want to keep the link going, join the British Legion.

[Grand Fromage]

Do VR(T) Officers have any power outside of the ATC? As a regular Fg Off this question is one that often comes to light amongst colleagues who have been redressed by VR(T) Sqn Ldrs for not calling them sir at the end of every sentence (once even after holding a door open) and more confusingly from Plt and Fg Offs who have been pulled up for not saluting VR(T) Flt Lts.

[Postman Plod]

RayDarr - why not just get it out - what have the VR(T) done to you? This is more than just a niggle or an observation, I'm really interested in what has made you come to this pretty forthright conclusion? I could be swayed either way, but I'm just not sold by your argument.

As someone said earlier - my commissioning scroll tells me I'm appointed to be an officer in "our" Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve... does yours?? Same bit of paper, different words... Cornflake Commission were the words used by someone else, repeated by yourself, and I thought I'd stick with the theme. To me its far from a cornflake commission. I know I haven't gone through the same training or crap that a regular or auxiliary has, thats why mine says Volunteer Reserve, not just Royal Air Force. Isn't that distinction enough?

As for the Wavy Navy, isn't that (or wasn't that) the equivalent of the VRT, only instead of wavy officer braid, we have a gilt badge? So whats the difference - a bit of paper, which IS different to that of a regular?

[L-H]

Right then, getting a tad peeved here.
RayDarr, you clearly have an axe to grind and it took you nearly four pages to finally nail your colours to the mast. From my view point you come across as a status anxious little twit who seems more concerned over the perceived value of whatever reservist commission you hold. How about you act like the officer you claim to be and accept the staus quo and instead of being an @rse embrace what it is the VR(T) are doing and appreciate that we all have a role to play.
When I joined the ATC as a cadet all those years ago it was precisely because it was closely affiliated to the RAF and the rank structure mirrored the parent service; fast forward a couple of decades and the same motives apply. Also the parents value the discipline and structure the ATC provides, much preferring to bring their offspring to a well established credible and readily indentifiable organisation. Furthermore it is because units are run by Volunteer reservists that parents are drawn in.
By disbanding the VR(T) you will devalue the whole concept of the ACO, disbandment will undermine it's core values which in time will prove ultimately destructive. To justify your argument you use the GVC as a model, mate you have no idea. The GVC is all but dead and held in very poor esteem, in fact the only function it seems to provide is as a holding pool for enthusiastic girls intending to join the ATC who are under the enrolment age. Army cadet Officers hold TA commissions - you going to have a pop at them too?
As an ex regular SNCO with over 22 years under my belt who is now a VR(T) JO I find your comments insulting, divisive and of no constructive value. if the central core of your argument is that the VR(T) is not war appointable then you need to go out and have a word with yourself, I recall up until very recently that the RAuxAF was held in equally low esteem by us regulars. Nothing more than an officers social drinking club populated by social climbing lower middle class suburbanites that were never to be trusted within 25 yards of anything. Things have clearly moved on and the oggies are now a well respected and credible part of the RAF. I put it to you that the VR(T), although non war appointable (mores the pity I may add - Civil Defence anyone?) has just an important part to play in the big picture and with the right leadership and updated training, do the reserve officers course at Cranwell for example, will move forward and itself become more credible.
Whatever it is that is stressing you out - get over it man!

[Cat5 in the Hat]

Originally Posted by Grand Fromage

Do VR(T) Officers have any power outside of the ATC? As a regular Fg Off this question is one that often comes to light amongst colleagues who have been redressed by VR(T) Sqn Ldrs for not calling them sir at the end of every sentence (once even after holding a door open) and more confusingly from Plt and Fg Offs who have been pulled up for not saluting VR(T) Flt Lts.

Command wise RAFVR(T) defer to RAuxAF, RAFR & RAF.

Regular junior officer should still salute VR(T) senior officers as they would their own. It is after all, the Queen we are saluting.

[FormerFlake]

Originally Posted by Grand Fromage

Do VR(T) Officers have any power outside of the ATC? As a regular Fg Off this question is one that often comes to light amongst colleagues who have been redressed by VR(T) Sqn Ldrs for not calling them sir at the end of every sentence (once even after holding a door open) and more confusingly from Plt and Fg Offs who have been pulled up for not saluting VR(T) Flt Lts.

As with anythinge else you salute the commision, not the person but no reason to salute a Flt Lt!! Politeness kills nobody, but common sense should prevail.

RayDarr,

If had met VR(T) officers and SNCOs who hold down busy full time jobs, have families in still put hundreds of hours in to the ATC. Give these guys some credit, you except credit in your ACR for your secondary duties, these guys get to wear a uniform instead. Would you work for free like they do?

[pwwuk]

Differentiation

I have dyslexia and am sorry if you find this difficult to read, but sorting out the syntax would hardly be good use of my PA’s time ! Also for the record, I’m not a VRT officer.

Now here is a question:-

a) The RAF has a cadet organisation, of which it is proud, called The Air Training Corps. It had the same uniforms (but with clear differencing flashes for cadets /staff) as its parent body and has standards of appearance and discipline appropriate to a forces cadet organisation. (note the words cadet organisation)

or


b) The RAF loosely lends its support to a youth club, that just happens to fly on its airfields, and from whom a high percentage of staff happen to have belonged, but does not expect standards of dress, drill and discipline appropriate to a forces cadet organisation, called the Flying Youth Club. Thus is dressed in pink rather than green CS95 , and red rather then blue dress uniform, in case an enemy force get mistaken in times of conflict.

I think the answer from the top down within the RAF would be A. It is clear from the letters VRT that the officers are officers commanding cadets, not commanding regular or auxiliary forces.

‘I’ve just seen a guardsman on a gate salute a former VRT officer, how wrong, now they are called Flying Cadet Youth Coordinators, everyone knows the correct response should be to give then a single finger gesture ‘

Firstly – a Good ATC = Good Staff

The ATC benefits from a significant group of VR(T) officers whom in civilian life usually have a high standing in society. Why would an airline pilot, senior customs officer, management consultant or DCI in the Police Force (all examples of serving VRT officers in my immediate vicinity) volunteer huge amounts their time, skills and effort, to go on camp and not expect some level of respect..

‘They could easily be accommodated in the sergeants mess’ I think you said, well that just shows that as you clearly don’t respect the VRTs, you don’t seem to care much for your SNCOs also if you feel that the youth workers would find the appropriate accommodation along side the WOs and Sgts, for the handful of VRTs who actually manage to get a place on a camp after their years work. The fact is they work in small huts on rainy nights year round, this is not a good place to attract glory or salutes, but yet ‘do the work’. Perhaps the adult staff are not worthily of a cadet salute in your mind, and if they are fit, then which level of youth worker would you have the cadet salute sir, lead flying cadet supervisor (adult) ?

The argument that they need a different uniform and rank structure misses the fact that they have VRT in large letters just about obscuring the rank tabs. There is no doubt that VRTs are just that, not RAF nor RauxAF, but are part of the RAF’s cadet organisation. Proud to be a close part of the RAF family.

Now lets make them youth coordinators as per your suggestion. How will they fill out the forms that require x rank to approve, the whole admin, identification / security and authority systems would need to be changed .. and whilst we are there, we would have to do the same to the Army & Navy cadets (as the the cadet organisations operate across each others facilities (just pop in to Pirbright ot Ash Ranges)). Now we have just wasted a huge amount of money, issued lots of new uniform and badges, re printed just about every document in the RAF and ATC, confused the cadets who are learning discipline and structure of the RAF for their BTEC, and for what ? To show who has and who has not done basic officer training ? when everyone already knows ! Now we have to take apart the TA who may only ‘train’ for two weeks per year etc etc. (I know in fact the TA and RauxAF train much more than the minimum, I have great respect for the bank managers and bus drivers that find themselves on the front line irrespective of their acting rank, they need training appropriate for their volunteer duties.)

RAF flightier command is not going to launch off a wave of attacks on the say so of a senor officer in the personnel section nor on the say so of an senior officer in the cadet organisation, so the risk of a VRT Wing Commander sending us to bomb the French , I am happy ¿ to suggest, is nonexistent , so your fears are unfounded.

Second - Parent Organisation

The argument that the ATC should be more like a youth club fails to recognise one key element; this is a military youth organisation. The cadets uniform must be pressed, footwear gleaming, standing in silence to attention on parade. Why .. the RAF is the parent organisation, should the senior cadets not be sergeants in case they are confused for an regular sergeant, no they are part of a military cadet organisation, and as such have a rank.

Having watched this for a which, I took the opportunity to get the views of serving personnel. I have just returned from a RAF station overseas and everyone I met could not have been more supportive, respectful of the volunteers and enthusiastic in support of the ATC (even in the AAA bar at 2am with beet goggles on I could not unearth the resentment you suggest) . Not one person mentioned of any feeling that any staff accompanying the cadets should not have access to the facilities that accompanies their VRT rank (Subject to operational capacity) nor indeed any problem with their rank.
There was much debate about respect between levels in the regular force and between Army and RAF staff who find themselves working in combined units, but that another story.

My conclusion they support the ATC, may well have served or have worked with, like having cadets on camp as long as they are well disciplined, which they usually are. As to the status of VRT officers, everyone understood that they commanded cadet squadrons, or gliding facilities (The AEF officers are all commissioned or ex commissioned forces pilots (with some SCNO pilots from the Army who on finding themselves eligible for Flying Officer status must leave their years flying helicopters in combat situations and make a mad dash for the glory .)

Bad apples.

I have seen appalling low standards of command by regular service officers, but that is rare. I know of several VRT officers who I would not wish to be associated with, and the level of sub optimal standards may well be higher in the ATC than in the regular and other reserve forces (although I could point to a 1000 similar threads relating to the regulars’ distain of the territorial army officers), fact is that if you took away the reserve forces, we would be have a fighting force. Recruiting good staff is important and the forces cadet organisations are key here, it costs a fortune to train a pilot or tradesman and the cadet organisation is good at giving at insight that that may be great or totally wrong career choice for that young person.

The answer to the problem if it is a significant one ? A programme of continuous improvement. . Better selection, training and ongoing development, and of course getting rid of the bad apples. If a regular officer where to report conduct below standard to the station commander, I can be very sure that the VRT officer would have to work hard to rectify this or would loose their commission.
.
IF YOU CARE about this subject, get involved with an ATC squadron, service helpers (that would be your title) are extremely valuable in providing real life insight in to the service, away from camps / visits / AEF and VGS days. And do make a positive impact across the board. A service helper may well find themselves at wing or region level before not to long.

With a significant proportion of serving personnel in the RAF being Ex. cadets, it would appear that the VRT officers who introduced them to the RAF world must be doing something right.

Support, encouragement, training, improvement and oversight are what the adult managers in the ATC need, not to be placed in exile

Final words from me If you care get involved and make a difference .. if you don’t . xxxx xxx xxxx xx (and they are not kisses)

P.

[airborne_artist]

So it seems to come down to that age old problem - my willy is bigger/faster/more expensive/more important than yours

[Cool_Hand]

This is from POBnowFOB who is having difficulty logging on...

"RayDarr, maybe you should stop looking at the difference between the RAF and RAF VR(T)
And look at the difference between civvies and the Air Cadet Org.

Can a VGS fly military registered aircraft without a military CO?

Can shooting in the ACO continue without SA(B)90 qualified personnel?
(SA(B)90 qualified people teach the instructors, I think you need to be a member of HM forces to hold this. Hence ATC adult NCOs can't hold this qualification)

And there are other reasons why shooting in the ATC needs to be controlled by the RAF, but I probably shouldn't go into them here."

[RayDarr]

Well done folks, if you can't win your argument by reason then be abusive. Read the past posts people, you will see that I have great respect for those who run their ATC Sqns well. They do it for the kids not the glory. I see a number on here who seem to be more interested in glory than the kids.
Notice the regular guy complaining that VR(T) Sqn Ldrs insist in being called "Sir" at every other word. and notice the VR(T) guys saying we salute the Queen not the man. Quite right, but it is interesting how often the man requiring the salute is an Air Cadet officer on an ego trip.
I am not involved directly in the ATC, my RAuxAF work keeps me busy enough, but I am indirectly associated with a number of units, as are others in my circle. I, during my last mobilisation, spent 6 months at a UK station and supervised ATC annual camps during my off duty time. I have seen the organisation from the inside and out, and like many others are not impressed with some (not all) of the staff
Why should the RAF make allowances for those who do not (but think they know) how the service works, and who wear the uniform of an officer. The collar dogs make little difference as the uniform and commission hold the key. Whatever you guys think, if you walk around with your rank showing, you ARE an officer, and you must be shown the correct respect. If you can't do it properly, loose the uniform and rank.
The VT(T) should go and be replaced by a parallel organisation of ATC officers without formal commissions. You can spend all day saluting each other and called yourselves sir, but the time has come to step back from the armed forces.

[dinoorin]

Originally Posted by RayDarr

Notice the regular guy complaining that VR(T) Sqn Ldrs insist in being called "Sir" at every other word. and notice the VR(T) guys saying we salute the Queen not the man. Quite right, but it is interesting how often the man requiring the salute is an Air Cadet officer on an ego trip.
.

As far as I was instructed when I went through initial training. All JO's are to call senior officers Sir (ie Sqn Ldr or above) at all times. Maybe things have changed with modern training.
As regards saluting. As an officer you should expect to have the commision saluted. Certainly if this does not occur it mearly shows that the transgressing individual has no respect for the crown to which they serve. Any officer be it reg, aux or VRT should challenge this transgresser. Again unless the modern training has changed that much.
We all wear her majesties uniform however have hugely differing roles.
This whole thread has now become one of 'I am superior / better than you'. Very tiresome and to be honest very dissapointing to hear from an ex professional.
Clearly from this anyone that is not in your club would appear to be tarred as inferior.
Oh, by the way. Unless things have radically changed in the last few years - I would not say wearing a military uniform is glory hunting. If anyhthing with the modern view of all things armed forces, it is probably seen as very uncool. A sad state of affairs but indicative of the world we now live in.
Can we now stop the bickering and all agree to disagree without further washing laundry in public.

[pwwuk]

"argument by reason"

"argument by reason ", I'm sorry I spent so long on my post, either you lack consideration or comprehension.

Hope you get all the respect from the regular officers that you deserve. As you "can do it properly", and thus as the VRT "can't do it properly"

I am very sorry to inform you, that what ever you may wish for, there are regular three star officers, at the very heart UK forces command, who support the tri-service cadet forces and their officers, as they are.

As a reservist you will never get the opportunity to effect policy, and of that I am glad.

Regards P.

PS

And I have never come across a 'pompous' RauxAF Officer ? well sadly I have, and how did I deal with it, a quiet word in the appropriate ear, no one is perfect, and where fault exists there is opportunity to develop, given the correct support. The RauxAF is indeed going well, and I know that VRT officers can equally do the uniform justice, as many do, given our support.

[david clark]

There is nothing at all wrong with the VR(T) and those commissioned within it. Yes, there is probably a minority of issues and bad apples - show me an organisation regular or volunteer where that isn't true. Unfortunately, it is very easy for those who are not in a position to work with cadet organisations anymore to stand outside and throw stones in. It is terribly sad that the internet gives idiots with an axe to grind such a visible voice - before bulletin boards they would just be some sad chuntering individual left to bear their chips alone.

[RayDarr]

It is a shame that some of you can't throw you opinions into the ring without being rude. Perhaps this is how the VR(T) works these days. I am confirmed in my view that the VR(T) no longer serves a purpose, and that the sooner it is gone the better.

[hobbit1983]

It's a bit redundant anyway, since the VR(T) appears to be here to stay regardless!

I think, having read all of the posts above, that the general consensus is that the VR(T) as it stands now, is on the whole doing a worthwhile job - but with a few useless "walts"/posers.

On the whole then, it could be a lot worse - there are 40,000 or so children and young adults who benefit hugely from the ATC and it's VR(T) leadership. I would argue that that is worth putting up with a few idiots.

To clarify on my personal opinion: I think it would be a good idea to change NOT the uniform - but the rank. "Wavy RAF" would work well IMHO - same uniform (maintaining the valuable link) but a clearly different type of officer.

If it works well for the SCC then why not - but again, not going to happen and there is probably not an urgent need for it.