US Army Warrants
I find this thread a bit tiresome now, but like HAL I get drawn back......
WO1, if all this is a wind up, I congratulate you on your success.
If salutes, and how much you want people to kiss your arse, are the be-all and end-all of your military existence, then WTF don't you just become a bloody Officer instead of whinging about it on here. Perhaps you could have your own website with a counter on it for the number of salutes you receive, updated daily. Try hanging around the enlisted barracks before starting work to get your day off to a flyer.
Mate you need to get yourself in Iraq or the 'Stan with real hard-nosed grunts, and learn about earning respect properly. Just 'cos you've got something on your shoulder doesn't mean Jack in the real world.
Oh and please remember, that with your apparent attitude, your ranking senior NCO will probably be following you around repairing the damage you've done. Spare them a thought.
WO1, if all this is a wind up, I congratulate you on your success.
If salutes, and how much you want people to kiss your arse, are the be-all and end-all of your military existence, then WTF don't you just become a bloody Officer instead of whinging about it on here. Perhaps you could have your own website with a counter on it for the number of salutes you receive, updated daily. Try hanging around the enlisted barracks before starting work to get your day off to a flyer.
Mate you need to get yourself in Iraq or the 'Stan with real hard-nosed grunts, and learn about earning respect properly. Just 'cos you've got something on your shoulder doesn't mean Jack in the real world.
Oh and please remember, that with your apparent attitude, your ranking senior NCO will probably be following you around repairing the damage you've done. Spare them a thought.
This warrants defining as an "Ass Kicking"
Sorryo Echo 5....but history proves you wrong.
In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples dedicated to pursuing economic opportunism and the joys of life. It also occupied a strategic place on the map. Located just 100 miles upstream from the mouth of the Mississippi River, the Crescent City offered a tempting prize to a British military still buoyant over the burning of Washington, D.C. To capture the city, Admiral Sir Alexander Cochrane fitted out a naval flotilla of more than 50 ships to transport 10,000 veteran troops from Jamaica. They were led by Sir Edward Pakenham, the 37-year-old brother-in-law of the Duke of Wellington and a much-decorated general officer.
For protection, the citizens of southern Louisiana looked to Major General Andrew Jackson, known to his men as "Old Hickory." Jackson arrived in new Orleans in the late fall of 1814 and quickly prepared defenses along the city's many avenues of approach.
Meanwhile, the British armada scattered a makeshift American fleet in Lake Borgne, a shallow arm of the Gulf of Mexico east of New Orleans, and evaluated their options. Two British officers, disguised as Spanish fishermen, discovered an unguarded waterway, Bayou Bienvenue, that provided access to the east bank of the Mississippi River barely nine miles downstream from New Orleans. On December 23 the British vanguard poled its way through a maze of sluggish streams and traversed marshy land to emerge unchallenged an easy day's march from their goal.
Two American officers, whose plantations had been commandeered by the British, informed Jackson that the enemy was at the gates. "Gentlemen, the British are below, we must fight them tonight," the general declared. He quickly launched a nighttime surprise attack that, although tactically a draw, gained valuable time for the outnumbered Americans. Startled by their opponents' boldness, the British decided to defer their advance toward New Orleans until all their troops could be brought in from the fleet.
Old Hickory used this time well. He retreated three miles to the Chalmette Plantation on the banks of the Rodriguez Canal, a wide, dry ditch that marked the narrowest strip of solid land between the British camps and New Orleans. Here Jackson built a fortified mud rampart, 3/5 mile long and anchored on its right by the Mississippi River and on the left by an impassable cypress swamp.
While the Americans dug in, General Pakenham readied his attack plans. On December 28 the British launched a strong advance that Jackson repulsed with the help of the Louisiana, an American ship that blasted the British left flank with broadsides from the river. Four days later Pakenham tried to bombard the Americans into submission with an artillery barrage, but Jackson's gunners stood their ground.
The arrival of fresh troops during the first week of January 1815 gave the British new hope. Pakenham decided to cross the Mississippi downstream with a strong force and overwhelm Jackson's thin line of defenders on the river bank opposite the Rodriguez Canal. Once these redcoats were in position to pour flank fire across the river, heavy columns would assault each flank of the American line, then pursue the insolent defenders six miles into the heart of New Orleans. Units carrying fascines -- bundled sticks used to construct fortifications -- and ladders to bridge the ditch and scale the ramparts would precede the attack, which would begin at dawn January 8 to take advantage of the early morning fog.
It was a solid plan in conception, but flawed in execution. The force on the west bank was delayed crossing the river and did not reach its goal until well after dawn. Deprived of their misty cover, the main British columns had no choice but to advance across the open fields toward the Americans, who waited expectantly behind their mud and cotton-bale barricades. To make matters worse, the British forgot their ladders and fascines, so they had no easy means to close with the protected Americans.
Never has a more polyglot army fought under the Stars and Stripes than did Jackson's force at the Battle of New Orleans. In addition to his regular U.S. Army units, Jackson counted on dandy New Orleans militia, a sizable contingent of black former Haitian slaves fighting as free men of color, Kentucky and Tennessee frontiersmen armed with deadly long rifles and a colorful band of outlaws led by Jean Lafitte, whose men Jackson had once disdained as "hellish banditti." This hodgepodge of 4,000 soldiers, crammed behind narrow fortifications, faced more than twice their number.
Pakenham's assault was doomed from the beginning. His men made perfect targets as they marched precisely across a quarter mile of open ground. Hardened veterans of the Peninsular Campaign in Spain fell by the score, including nearly 80 percent of a splendid Scottish Highlander unit that tried to march obliquely across the American front. Both of Pakenham's senior generals were shot early in the battle, and the commander himself suffered two wounds before a shell severed an artery in his leg, killing him in minutes. His successor wisely disobeyed Pakenham's dying instructions to continue the attack and pulled the British survivors off the field. More than 2,000 British had been killed or wounded and several hundred more were captured. The American loss was eight killed and 13 wounded.
Jackson's victory had saved New Orleans, but it came after the war was over. The Treaty of Ghent, which ended the War of 1812 but resolved none of the issues that started it, had been signed in Europe weeks before the action on the Chalmette Plantation.
In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples dedicated to pursuing economic opportunism and the joys of life. It also occupied a strategic place on the map. Located just 100 miles upstream from the mouth of the Mississippi River, the Crescent City offered a tempting prize to a British military still buoyant over the burning of Washington, D.C. To capture the city, Admiral Sir Alexander Cochrane fitted out a naval flotilla of more than 50 ships to transport 10,000 veteran troops from Jamaica. They were led by Sir Edward Pakenham, the 37-year-old brother-in-law of the Duke of Wellington and a much-decorated general officer.
For protection, the citizens of southern Louisiana looked to Major General Andrew Jackson, known to his men as "Old Hickory." Jackson arrived in new Orleans in the late fall of 1814 and quickly prepared defenses along the city's many avenues of approach.
Meanwhile, the British armada scattered a makeshift American fleet in Lake Borgne, a shallow arm of the Gulf of Mexico east of New Orleans, and evaluated their options. Two British officers, disguised as Spanish fishermen, discovered an unguarded waterway, Bayou Bienvenue, that provided access to the east bank of the Mississippi River barely nine miles downstream from New Orleans. On December 23 the British vanguard poled its way through a maze of sluggish streams and traversed marshy land to emerge unchallenged an easy day's march from their goal.
Two American officers, whose plantations had been commandeered by the British, informed Jackson that the enemy was at the gates. "Gentlemen, the British are below, we must fight them tonight," the general declared. He quickly launched a nighttime surprise attack that, although tactically a draw, gained valuable time for the outnumbered Americans. Startled by their opponents' boldness, the British decided to defer their advance toward New Orleans until all their troops could be brought in from the fleet.
Old Hickory used this time well. He retreated three miles to the Chalmette Plantation on the banks of the Rodriguez Canal, a wide, dry ditch that marked the narrowest strip of solid land between the British camps and New Orleans. Here Jackson built a fortified mud rampart, 3/5 mile long and anchored on its right by the Mississippi River and on the left by an impassable cypress swamp.
While the Americans dug in, General Pakenham readied his attack plans. On December 28 the British launched a strong advance that Jackson repulsed with the help of the Louisiana, an American ship that blasted the British left flank with broadsides from the river. Four days later Pakenham tried to bombard the Americans into submission with an artillery barrage, but Jackson's gunners stood their ground.
The arrival of fresh troops during the first week of January 1815 gave the British new hope. Pakenham decided to cross the Mississippi downstream with a strong force and overwhelm Jackson's thin line of defenders on the river bank opposite the Rodriguez Canal. Once these redcoats were in position to pour flank fire across the river, heavy columns would assault each flank of the American line, then pursue the insolent defenders six miles into the heart of New Orleans. Units carrying fascines -- bundled sticks used to construct fortifications -- and ladders to bridge the ditch and scale the ramparts would precede the attack, which would begin at dawn January 8 to take advantage of the early morning fog.
It was a solid plan in conception, but flawed in execution. The force on the west bank was delayed crossing the river and did not reach its goal until well after dawn. Deprived of their misty cover, the main British columns had no choice but to advance across the open fields toward the Americans, who waited expectantly behind their mud and cotton-bale barricades. To make matters worse, the British forgot their ladders and fascines, so they had no easy means to close with the protected Americans.
Never has a more polyglot army fought under the Stars and Stripes than did Jackson's force at the Battle of New Orleans. In addition to his regular U.S. Army units, Jackson counted on dandy New Orleans militia, a sizable contingent of black former Haitian slaves fighting as free men of color, Kentucky and Tennessee frontiersmen armed with deadly long rifles and a colorful band of outlaws led by Jean Lafitte, whose men Jackson had once disdained as "hellish banditti." This hodgepodge of 4,000 soldiers, crammed behind narrow fortifications, faced more than twice their number.
Pakenham's assault was doomed from the beginning. His men made perfect targets as they marched precisely across a quarter mile of open ground. Hardened veterans of the Peninsular Campaign in Spain fell by the score, including nearly 80 percent of a splendid Scottish Highlander unit that tried to march obliquely across the American front. Both of Pakenham's senior generals were shot early in the battle, and the commander himself suffered two wounds before a shell severed an artery in his leg, killing him in minutes. His successor wisely disobeyed Pakenham's dying instructions to continue the attack and pulled the British survivors off the field. More than 2,000 British had been killed or wounded and several hundred more were captured. The American loss was eight killed and 13 wounded.
Jackson's victory had saved New Orleans, but it came after the war was over. The Treaty of Ghent, which ended the War of 1812 but resolved none of the issues that started it, had been signed in Europe weeks before the action on the Chalmette Plantation.
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SASless.
Nice spot of googling there, but equally, it would not take a large amount of digging to find a comparable story which is not in the favour of the good old US of A. Whether that be during 1814 or even during the 1960's-70's, as I'm sure you're more than aware of
Here's two for your team e5
Nice spot of googling there, but equally, it would not take a large amount of digging to find a comparable story which is not in the favour of the good old US of A. Whether that be during 1814 or even during the 1960's-70's, as I'm sure you're more than aware of
Here's two for your team e5
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The Rocket
Two nice jabs there old boy. Good Show.
SASless,
It's early doors here in Merrie Engerland but I shall read your history lesson this PM with interest. I say " with interest " because in my school days American history was not on the curriculum.
I feel rather smug now that I have ( perhaps temporarily ) steered this thread away from all this saluting nonsense.
Y'all have a nice day now.
Two nice jabs there old boy. Good Show.
SASless,
It's early doors here in Merrie Engerland but I shall read your history lesson this PM with interest. I say " with interest " because in my school days American history was not on the curriculum.
I feel rather smug now that I have ( perhaps temporarily ) steered this thread away from all this saluting nonsense.
Y'all have a nice day now.
Echo 5,
Seems we learned naught from your experiences about battling insurgencies.
In the opening weeks of the Boer War, Kruger’s shoddy, ill-disciplined guerrillas inflicted a stunning series of defeats on Britain. Yet British artists had no hesitation in glorifying the British Tommy and his mates, drawing individual heroism out of collective disaster. In presenting heroic pictures like the one above, they helped obscure the realities of the war for the British public, which foresaw rapid British victory. As it turned out, there was nothing rapid about it: it took two and a half years, 450,000 imperial troops, 22,000 deaths and £222,000,000 to crush the Boers.
Seems we learned naught from your experiences about battling insurgencies.
In the opening weeks of the Boer War, Kruger’s shoddy, ill-disciplined guerrillas inflicted a stunning series of defeats on Britain. Yet British artists had no hesitation in glorifying the British Tommy and his mates, drawing individual heroism out of collective disaster. In presenting heroic pictures like the one above, they helped obscure the realities of the war for the British public, which foresaw rapid British victory. As it turned out, there was nothing rapid about it: it took two and a half years, 450,000 imperial troops, 22,000 deaths and £222,000,000 to crush the Boers.
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SASless,
Got to be brief now as the daily toil is about to commence.
Just wondered.................." In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples "
No Americans then ?
Got to be brief now as the daily toil is about to commence.
Just wondered.................." In late 1814 New Orleans was home to a population of French, Spanish, African, Anglo and Creole peoples "
No Americans then ?
Hmm - didn't the locals wipe the floor with the US 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn?
I also seem to recall that a bunch of peasant guerillas did a pretty good job of defeating a certain 'superpower' in a little country called Viet Nam?
For all his faults, at least Harold Wislon kept the UK out of that mess. But had we been under Noo Labia then, would the toadying Bush bum licker have done the same thing?
I also seem to recall that a bunch of peasant guerillas did a pretty good job of defeating a certain 'superpower' in a little country called Viet Nam?
For all his faults, at least Harold Wislon kept the UK out of that mess. But had we been under Noo Labia then, would the toadying Bush bum licker have done the same thing?
Now Echo...you know better than that....even before the White man arrived there were Americans there....Red ones.
The troops were led by a Tennessee feller....nicknamed "Old Hickory" Jackson. Just showed what a group of folks drawn from all walks of life can do when they pull together.
Beags,
No one said we haven't had our defeats...but one did claim to have had none...merely pointing out some events to disprove that statement. I did not mention Singapore either....or a small amphibious assault against the Turks during the first World War...or a visit to Afghanistan by your bunch.
The troops were led by a Tennessee feller....nicknamed "Old Hickory" Jackson. Just showed what a group of folks drawn from all walks of life can do when they pull together.
Beags,
No one said we haven't had our defeats...but one did claim to have had none...merely pointing out some events to disprove that statement. I did not mention Singapore either....or a small amphibious assault against the Turks during the first World War...or a visit to Afghanistan by your bunch.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Hmmmm, battle of New Orleans, Washington.....
I believe it was Charles de Gaulle who said he had the utmost respect for the British - because they had the sense to always fight their wars in someone else's country.....
I believe it was Charles de Gaulle who said he had the utmost respect for the British - because they had the sense to always fight their wars in someone else's country.....
This thread has long since taken a rather disturbing lurch into rather petty (albeit sometimes well-researched) backbiting between Brits and Yanks. Considering we are often supposed to be the tightest of allies, is this just sibbling rivalry or is there more to it?
To return (albeit tediously) to the original thread, way back at the begining I was one of those who, being a Brit, naturally assumed that New_WO1 was overreaching himself by claiming that a CWO was a commissioned officer. I was wrong - he was right. The Americans are free to do what they like with their own military. Simply because they choose a system that we consider strange does not make it invalid.
So why all the bitching (mainly instigated by those on the eastern side of the pond) over the matter? I get the feeling that some of my compatriots are being influenced by (occasional?) irritation that some have found working alongside our allies in extended ops overseas.
My experience has been that our advice and requirements in theatre have often had a very low importance in American eyes. We get upset that we are not being considered, and the Yanks get irritated that a relatively minor player (a fact in terms of contributing forces) is so demanding. The term "special relationship" is something that I have heard far more from British mouths than from American ones.
As ever, the fault lies on both sides although I do feel that we Brits tend to (quite naturally) overstate our importance both diplomatically and militarily to the alliance. And the solution...? My suggestion would be that we as military officers (and WOs, commissioned or otherwise) should concentrate more on the issues at hand and rather less on point scoring between the 2 nations - leave that to the politicians!
To return (albeit tediously) to the original thread, way back at the begining I was one of those who, being a Brit, naturally assumed that New_WO1 was overreaching himself by claiming that a CWO was a commissioned officer. I was wrong - he was right. The Americans are free to do what they like with their own military. Simply because they choose a system that we consider strange does not make it invalid.
So why all the bitching (mainly instigated by those on the eastern side of the pond) over the matter? I get the feeling that some of my compatriots are being influenced by (occasional?) irritation that some have found working alongside our allies in extended ops overseas.
My experience has been that our advice and requirements in theatre have often had a very low importance in American eyes. We get upset that we are not being considered, and the Yanks get irritated that a relatively minor player (a fact in terms of contributing forces) is so demanding. The term "special relationship" is something that I have heard far more from British mouths than from American ones.
As ever, the fault lies on both sides although I do feel that we Brits tend to (quite naturally) overstate our importance both diplomatically and militarily to the alliance. And the solution...? My suggestion would be that we as military officers (and WOs, commissioned or otherwise) should concentrate more on the issues at hand and rather less on point scoring between the 2 nations - leave that to the politicians!
RLE,
I would rather focus upon what binds us together than what makes us different.
The week at Duxford re-inforced that belief. All one has to do is see the aircraft there...Spitfires, Curtis machines, B-17 flying from common ground...and remember a time when they were doing it in combat against a common enemy.
A walk up the entrance ramp to the American Hangar reminds one of the cost of that coming together in a time of peril....as does a visit to the Battle of Britain Hangar.
Jest and banter is a nice game....but the serious talk needs to center around why we do stand shoulder to shoulder at the worst of times.
After all...we got over you burning the White House...probably just a Dining In that got out of control I bet.
I would rather focus upon what binds us together than what makes us different.
The week at Duxford re-inforced that belief. All one has to do is see the aircraft there...Spitfires, Curtis machines, B-17 flying from common ground...and remember a time when they were doing it in combat against a common enemy.
A walk up the entrance ramp to the American Hangar reminds one of the cost of that coming together in a time of peril....as does a visit to the Battle of Britain Hangar.
Jest and banter is a nice game....but the serious talk needs to center around why we do stand shoulder to shoulder at the worst of times.
After all...we got over you burning the White House...probably just a Dining In that got out of control I bet.
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There must be a policy on how US Warrant Officers should be treated, but it doesn't appear to have filtered down to the foot soldiers.
Perhaps an instruction or brief article for the military magazines/ websites would clear up the matter (if any grown-ups are reading this).
Perhaps an instruction or brief article for the military magazines/ websites would clear up the matter (if any grown-ups are reading this).
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Bemused at the Back
New_W01, HAL, SASless et al
Asking a dumb question here (which may already have been answered in the last 15 pages of this, but I got sick of reading it after about 2):
Why is served by having CWOs? Why not simply have ordinary Officers and carry on in a manner that the rest of NATO understands?
Thanks
S41
Asking a dumb question here (which may already have been answered in the last 15 pages of this, but I got sick of reading it after about 2):
Why is served by having CWOs? Why not simply have ordinary Officers and carry on in a manner that the rest of NATO understands?
Thanks
S41
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"Just when I thought I was out, they keep pulling me back in......" A. Pacino - Godfather III.
I may have missed whether this point has already been raised in this debate but, 2 questions for New WO1:
1. Do you expect to be saluted by non-US Warrant Officers?
2. How long can you hold your breath for?
;-) DD
I may have missed whether this point has already been raised in this debate but, 2 questions for New WO1:
1. Do you expect to be saluted by non-US Warrant Officers?
2. How long can you hold your breath for?
;-) DD
Squirrel 41,
Make you a trade...when the British Army and Marines organize a hat badge and trousers protocol understandable to the rest of the world...nay....any other part of the world....I will beseech the US Army to do the same with our Warrant Officer ranks.
Some units wear hat badge front and back....Army REME types wear REME badges on Marine Berets...some units wear Red Trousers...some none at all...ah, never mind...the head hurts thinking about it.
Make you a trade...when the British Army and Marines organize a hat badge and trousers protocol understandable to the rest of the world...nay....any other part of the world....I will beseech the US Army to do the same with our Warrant Officer ranks.
Some units wear hat badge front and back....Army REME types wear REME badges on Marine Berets...some units wear Red Trousers...some none at all...ah, never mind...the head hurts thinking about it.
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Well TGIF at last.........................let the banter begin !!
SASless,
Okay so we got the odd bloody nose in the occasional skirmish but I did suggest that we never lost a WAR. Or am I wrong ?
Re the Boer War, it took us from 1899 to 1902 to sort the beggars out but we eventually did it. In those days perhaps the loss of 22k troops was acceptable. Who knows. According to Jeeves the Brits put the families of the Boers in concentration camps and burnt all their crops. Bloody bad form.
However, it took the Spams from 1942 to 1945 to bring WW2 to and end and that was after the Brits and our Colonial brothers had been softening the opposition up since 1939.
Yes, Singapore did fall into the hands of the Yellow Peril but they didn't keep it for long.
Now, didn't Kipling write something about " The Afghan " ? No amount of carpet bombing by the mighty Boeing is going to make these guys give up as many ( including the Brits ) have found to their cost.
"When you're wounded and left,
On Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out,
To cut up your remains,
Just roll on your rifle,
And blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd,
Like a soldier."
Rudyard Kipling
Think I've said enough for now but always ready for a bit of FRIENDLY banter.
SASless,
Okay so we got the odd bloody nose in the occasional skirmish but I did suggest that we never lost a WAR. Or am I wrong ?
Re the Boer War, it took us from 1899 to 1902 to sort the beggars out but we eventually did it. In those days perhaps the loss of 22k troops was acceptable. Who knows. According to Jeeves the Brits put the families of the Boers in concentration camps and burnt all their crops. Bloody bad form.
However, it took the Spams from 1942 to 1945 to bring WW2 to and end and that was after the Brits and our Colonial brothers had been softening the opposition up since 1939.
Yes, Singapore did fall into the hands of the Yellow Peril but they didn't keep it for long.
Now, didn't Kipling write something about " The Afghan " ? No amount of carpet bombing by the mighty Boeing is going to make these guys give up as many ( including the Brits ) have found to their cost.
"When you're wounded and left,
On Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out,
To cut up your remains,
Just roll on your rifle,
And blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd,
Like a soldier."
Rudyard Kipling
Think I've said enough for now but always ready for a bit of FRIENDLY banter.
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Endex
Phew! Well, thats sorted that thread out finally
We were right and newWO was wrong
Good to see everyone now agrees on that score but before we close here are some more things to ponder:
1. American football, worlds most boring sport or what?
2. Irish Americans, a non-existent species. Please answer in a thousand words or less with particular reference to Guiness.
3. Does owning a machine gun keep the King of England out of your face?
4. Tony Blair elected 3 times in a row and George Bush twice. When will people learn, democracy just doesnt work. Discuss
5. Crop rotation in the 14th century was particularly widespread after.....?
We were right and newWO was wrong
Good to see everyone now agrees on that score but before we close here are some more things to ponder:
1. American football, worlds most boring sport or what?
2. Irish Americans, a non-existent species. Please answer in a thousand words or less with particular reference to Guiness.
3. Does owning a machine gun keep the King of England out of your face?
4. Tony Blair elected 3 times in a row and George Bush twice. When will people learn, democracy just doesnt work. Discuss
5. Crop rotation in the 14th century was particularly widespread after.....?