Flying Pay
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Well comme on guys (or Gals.... PC you know nowerday and all...) 16 blades, ZH something, hangar, Tourist et al...
Tell me how good you are really.
Some of us don't get Flying Pay BUT STILL FLY MIL Fast Jets....
.
Tell me how good you are really.
Some of us don't get Flying Pay BUT STILL FLY MIL Fast Jets....
.
Short Blunt Shock
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Me? I'm ****e - that's why I'm not flying Harriers!
What, you mean this is a serious discussion thread, and not just a placeholder for Banter??
Oh, well, if you insist.....
Flying Pay is quite badly named, in my opinion. The concept behind it is the same as the concept for all Armed Forces remuneration - in that a representative pay rate for an 'equivalent' civilian job is considered, then the ubiqitous 'X-factor' is added to account for the exigencies of service life.
Except that, with Military aircrew, that formula was found to be lacking, since the 'equivalent' civilian job (which doesn't include using weapons or getting shot at) attracts a substantially higher salary. Coupled with the fact that the skills we are taught are easily transferrable to the civilian market, meant that some sort of recompense was in order if the Forces were not to lose one of their most expensive investments early in their carreers.
Hence Flying Pay is a RETENTION initiative - not a particularly good one, since airline salaries have long since overtaken what the govt can afford to pay. But that is the reasoning behind it, making it irrelevant whether you are on a front-line tour or desk-bound. You still have the skills and the flying hours to take with you, should you choose to do so.
16B
What, you mean this is a serious discussion thread, and not just a placeholder for Banter??
Oh, well, if you insist.....
Flying Pay is quite badly named, in my opinion. The concept behind it is the same as the concept for all Armed Forces remuneration - in that a representative pay rate for an 'equivalent' civilian job is considered, then the ubiqitous 'X-factor' is added to account for the exigencies of service life.
Except that, with Military aircrew, that formula was found to be lacking, since the 'equivalent' civilian job (which doesn't include using weapons or getting shot at) attracts a substantially higher salary. Coupled with the fact that the skills we are taught are easily transferrable to the civilian market, meant that some sort of recompense was in order if the Forces were not to lose one of their most expensive investments early in their carreers.
Hence Flying Pay is a RETENTION initiative - not a particularly good one, since airline salaries have long since overtaken what the govt can afford to pay. But that is the reasoning behind it, making it irrelevant whether you are on a front-line tour or desk-bound. You still have the skills and the flying hours to take with you, should you choose to do so.
16B
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16 Blades shame on you!
I can't believe you gave in to those egregious people who would make this thread a place of reasoned debate.
Gone is the banter.
I hope you feel dirty!
Quite simply, I deserve flying pay and that goes double for anyone who has to fly with me!
Incidentally, ZH875, re your autopilot comment. The sewer was invented back in the mists of time in north west india, and just as I am still better at flying than my circa 1943 autopilot, you appear vastly more effective than the sewer at spouting sh1t.
I can't believe you gave in to those egregious people who would make this thread a place of reasoned debate.
Gone is the banter.
I hope you feel dirty!
Quite simply, I deserve flying pay and that goes double for anyone who has to fly with me!
Incidentally, ZH875, re your autopilot comment. The sewer was invented back in the mists of time in north west india, and just as I am still better at flying than my circa 1943 autopilot, you appear vastly more effective than the sewer at spouting sh1t.
Nixor ut Ledo
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Beagle I take issue with you there. What has preceded in the last few pages isn't banter - it's vicious, uneducated, self-destructive crap from people who should know better.
Earlier in the piece I wrote that I was the MOD staff officer responsible for writing the revised Airmen Aircrew pay structure in 1989 (under direction from a GD 1* who had got his orders from the Treasury) and got nothing for my trouble than some unintelligent low life spilling his invective onto the computer screen. I resolved not to add to this thread after that but the backbiting and school-yard name calling has gone beyond the pale.
Flying pay ought to be paid for as long as the recipient is available and willing to fill a flying appointment. Flying pay should cease when the individual no longer wishes to fly and does everything on God's earth to escape a flying tour (such as the Master AEOp at ISK who had not flown for something like 30 years). That is an abuse of the system.
When I was in MOD the rationale was quite clear. It was for RETENTION primarily and also recognised the additional skills and perceived danger required to be aircrew.
You might not like 'blunties' but they nevertheless have a role to play in the team called the Royal Air Force. Some 'blunties' are there purely because they did not have the medical category to be aircrew but accepted a lesser role because they wanted to contribute to that team effort. Some of us actually achieved pilot qualifications after leaving!
Perhaps it is because the RAF is shrinking, or perhaps the 'wrong' sort of people have been recruited over the past 20 years or so (mostly I don't think so) that is causing this unsavoury incestuous savagery. Whatever; it isn't doing anything for teamwork.
So, Beags, banter is clever, witty, acerbic and generally makes some very valid points. What we have seen lately is none of that. Grow up everyone.
Earlier in the piece I wrote that I was the MOD staff officer responsible for writing the revised Airmen Aircrew pay structure in 1989 (under direction from a GD 1* who had got his orders from the Treasury) and got nothing for my trouble than some unintelligent low life spilling his invective onto the computer screen. I resolved not to add to this thread after that but the backbiting and school-yard name calling has gone beyond the pale.
Flying pay ought to be paid for as long as the recipient is available and willing to fill a flying appointment. Flying pay should cease when the individual no longer wishes to fly and does everything on God's earth to escape a flying tour (such as the Master AEOp at ISK who had not flown for something like 30 years). That is an abuse of the system.
When I was in MOD the rationale was quite clear. It was for RETENTION primarily and also recognised the additional skills and perceived danger required to be aircrew.
You might not like 'blunties' but they nevertheless have a role to play in the team called the Royal Air Force. Some 'blunties' are there purely because they did not have the medical category to be aircrew but accepted a lesser role because they wanted to contribute to that team effort. Some of us actually achieved pilot qualifications after leaving!
Perhaps it is because the RAF is shrinking, or perhaps the 'wrong' sort of people have been recruited over the past 20 years or so (mostly I don't think so) that is causing this unsavoury incestuous savagery. Whatever; it isn't doing anything for teamwork.
So, Beags, banter is clever, witty, acerbic and generally makes some very valid points. What we have seen lately is none of that. Grow up everyone.
allan907, RTFQ. Or rather answer.
My reference to banter was a comment upon Tourist's riposte to ZH875, not an overall comment on this thread. Some of which is indeed rather puerile as you quite rightly say.
And yes, I don't like 'blunties'; however, professional officers of non-GD branches are a totally different kettle of fish! Not all admin types are 'blunt' by any means. Also, one of the sharpest guys with the driest sense of humour I ever knew wasn't aircrew - he was a Suppler. His wind-up on S/L Ops at Wattisham over the latters daft request for a plug-in 'Kojak' light for his car was a joy to behold! But his skill in sorting out his loggie assets on Taceval was a touch of genius!
Your point re. Flying Pay is spot on. Why should some seagull (creature which avoids flying if at all possible) receive FP when deliberately avoiding flying duties? I knew a bloke at Valley who had a monthly allocation of Hunter hours which he never used - and hadn't done for years. But he still received top rate FP......
Glad that you managed to gain flying qualifications after leaving - hope you enjoy whatever field of flying that is.
My reference to banter was a comment upon Tourist's riposte to ZH875, not an overall comment on this thread. Some of which is indeed rather puerile as you quite rightly say.
And yes, I don't like 'blunties'; however, professional officers of non-GD branches are a totally different kettle of fish! Not all admin types are 'blunt' by any means. Also, one of the sharpest guys with the driest sense of humour I ever knew wasn't aircrew - he was a Suppler. His wind-up on S/L Ops at Wattisham over the latters daft request for a plug-in 'Kojak' light for his car was a joy to behold! But his skill in sorting out his loggie assets on Taceval was a touch of genius!
Your point re. Flying Pay is spot on. Why should some seagull (creature which avoids flying if at all possible) receive FP when deliberately avoiding flying duties? I knew a bloke at Valley who had a monthly allocation of Hunter hours which he never used - and hadn't done for years. But he still received top rate FP......
Glad that you managed to gain flying qualifications after leaving - hope you enjoy whatever field of flying that is.
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FIGHT TO KEEP WHAT YOU HAVE.
Services are a big company and the system is not geared up to review the pay of all individuals. If you recieve extra pay for flying, even though you are on a ground tour then so be it.
If they stop it, the arguement will not go away it will then be "I should get more than him because " - My aeroplane has four engines. - I am more productive as I drop more bombs. - My plane is bigger than yours. etc...
Once the money machine takes it away you will never get it back.
I would be more pissed off about overtime. Some people get cushy jobs with time off for sport, education etc while others have to put in extra hours to get the task done. Working in the civil aviation bussiness I still work extra hours, breed into me from my service days, but get paid for it. Flying pay or X-factor pay comes no where near the level of Overtime pay.
If they stop it, the arguement will not go away it will then be "I should get more than him because " - My aeroplane has four engines. - I am more productive as I drop more bombs. - My plane is bigger than yours. etc...
Once the money machine takes it away you will never get it back.
I would be more pissed off about overtime. Some people get cushy jobs with time off for sport, education etc while others have to put in extra hours to get the task done. Working in the civil aviation bussiness I still work extra hours, breed into me from my service days, but get paid for it. Flying pay or X-factor pay comes no where near the level of Overtime pay.
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allan.
As I am sure you are aware, none of us here have any control over whether or not we get flying pay, how much it is etc or even whether we deserve it.
Under these circumstances why try to spoil other peoples fun.
Let other people hurl abuse. Nobody has to sit and take it, they can just log off.
Everyone hates a spoilsport, especially people claiming to be ex MOD staff officers. (not something I'd own up to! must be this new big brother, reality tv, confessional society we now live in.)
Feel free not to participate further in the discussion.
Bye!!
Oh, and hangar Pillock that was my point and my joke you cretin
As I am sure you are aware, none of us here have any control over whether or not we get flying pay, how much it is etc or even whether we deserve it.
Under these circumstances why try to spoil other peoples fun.
Let other people hurl abuse. Nobody has to sit and take it, they can just log off.
Everyone hates a spoilsport, especially people claiming to be ex MOD staff officers. (not something I'd own up to! must be this new big brother, reality tv, confessional society we now live in.)
Feel free not to participate further in the discussion.
Bye!!
Oh, and hangar Pillock that was my point and my joke you cretin
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I agree with Tourist. Receiving top whack flying pay is all about running fast cars, zooming around on 2 wheels (top weekend weather for that!) and of course sailing off on one's yacht for the summer hols.... without it, I would have to leave and give up all the other fun things like blasting around the Highlands and Islands at breakneck speed and chatting up chicks at airshows.
SSAP
SSAP
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tourist,
I'm all confused now....did you mean that it was that you're dangerous and were joking abou it? When I said I agree with you I wasn't joking. I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them. your the joke cretin.
I'm all confused now....did you mean that it was that you're dangerous and were joking abou it? When I said I agree with you I wasn't joking. I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them. your the joke cretin.
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HP,
I assume you feel that your automatic promotion to 2 ˝ , whilst aircrew do not, is warranted???!!
Or is it that your chip on your shoulder will not go away!!
Why is it that we have more AEOs in the FAA than aircraft engines? (And Merlin has three per aircraft!) And exactly what do you do that is demanding, your lads do the work not you! Unlike Aircrew!!
I assume you feel that your automatic promotion to 2 ˝ , whilst aircrew do not, is warranted???!!
Or is it that your chip on your shoulder will not go away!!
Why is it that we have more AEOs in the FAA than aircraft engines? (And Merlin has three per aircraft!) And exactly what do you do that is demanding, your lads do the work not you! Unlike Aircrew!!
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Hanger Pillock
"I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them"
I am so glad you noticed. The effort has all now been worthwhile. I feel validated.I would like to thank my supporters, without whom none of this meaningless babble would be possible. The strains placed upon me by the need to keep my oracle-like aviation knowledge hidden have been great, but now somehow justified by the fact that someone, no matter how lowly, has noticed.
If you want reasoned educated debate then what on earth do you keep replying to me for? Am I actually getting to you that much that you require the last word? How childish. The idea that you are wasting your easter leave engaged in banter you aren't even enjoying makes my day. Thank you.
If you want a cognitive challenge, go and debate with the clever people like ORAC and Beagle, they seem to have limitless knowledge and patience.
Incidentally, I was going for self deprecating humour with the flying comment, but it didn't seem to work so if you don't mind I'll go back to abrasive and egotistical..
"I've had a quick look at some of your other contributions to these forums and its safe to say you haven't actually contributed an intelligent word to any of them"
I am so glad you noticed. The effort has all now been worthwhile. I feel validated.I would like to thank my supporters, without whom none of this meaningless babble would be possible. The strains placed upon me by the need to keep my oracle-like aviation knowledge hidden have been great, but now somehow justified by the fact that someone, no matter how lowly, has noticed.
If you want reasoned educated debate then what on earth do you keep replying to me for? Am I actually getting to you that much that you require the last word? How childish. The idea that you are wasting your easter leave engaged in banter you aren't even enjoying makes my day. Thank you.
If you want a cognitive challenge, go and debate with the clever people like ORAC and Beagle, they seem to have limitless knowledge and patience.
Incidentally, I was going for self deprecating humour with the flying comment, but it didn't seem to work so if you don't mind I'll go back to abrasive and egotistical..
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MM
typical of someone in a grow back to speak without knowledge.
I do not have automatic promotion, and nor does anyone else under the 3TC - if you dont know what that means I suggest you look it up.
Regardless what you think an AEO does on a squadron (which is the only place you see him/her work) AEOs can normally only expect 2 or 3 jobs on a squadron - therefore you don't know what they do most of the rest of the time.
Maybe you should do a little more research before gobbing off. Perhaps you should pull your head out of the crewroom (or your ass) and ask someone.
typical of someone in a grow back to speak without knowledge.
I do not have automatic promotion, and nor does anyone else under the 3TC - if you dont know what that means I suggest you look it up.
Regardless what you think an AEO does on a squadron (which is the only place you see him/her work) AEOs can normally only expect 2 or 3 jobs on a squadron - therefore you don't know what they do most of the rest of the time.
Maybe you should do a little more research before gobbing off. Perhaps you should pull your head out of the crewroom (or your ass) and ask someone.
"Is this the right room for an argument?"
"I've told you once....."
"No you didn't......!"
"Just a minute - did you want 5 minutes or the full half hour?"
"I've told you once....."
"No you didn't......!"
"Just a minute - did you want 5 minutes or the full half hour?"
Anyway, this retention pay we get. ALL specialists get extra money, be they SF, Aircrew or various others. This is not the X factor.
Do we/they deserve it, yes if not we would all leave for better wages in the commercial market.
Is it danger money? Fairly debatable, but dont try and compare what we do with the guys on the ground that is insulting to them.
Do we/they deserve it, yes if not we would all leave for better wages in the commercial market.
Is it danger money? Fairly debatable, but dont try and compare what we do with the guys on the ground that is insulting to them.
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Hanger Pillock,
So you did not get automatic promotion to Lt Cdr? Are you on preserved rights? Or are you full of s**ite?
I know when 3TC came in; so did you?
If you do more than 1-2 Sqn Job (that is rare!!) you will spend the rest of your time wasting everybody’s money at Abbey Wood or on exchange, running IPTs with no user knowledge or common sense. You make out you do 2-3 jobs on a squadron you must have done well!!! Many of your branch see the squadron jobs as a pain in the a**se, more of a necessity for career profile than anything else, and yes I do work with your lot outside the squadron environment! Perhaps you should consider who you are slagging off before you assume they have no knowledge!
Chopped aircrew by any chance……..
Must go and spend some of my well earned Flying pay!!
So you did not get automatic promotion to Lt Cdr? Are you on preserved rights? Or are you full of s**ite?
I know when 3TC came in; so did you?
If you do more than 1-2 Sqn Job (that is rare!!) you will spend the rest of your time wasting everybody’s money at Abbey Wood or on exchange, running IPTs with no user knowledge or common sense. You make out you do 2-3 jobs on a squadron you must have done well!!! Many of your branch see the squadron jobs as a pain in the a**se, more of a necessity for career profile than anything else, and yes I do work with your lot outside the squadron environment! Perhaps you should consider who you are slagging off before you assume they have no knowledge!
Chopped aircrew by any chance……..
Must go and spend some of my well earned Flying pay!!