Flying Pay
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Its very simple....flying pay (and FRI) is for retention AND recruitment.
Retention for those who have highly transferable skills (pilots) to keep them in,...
Recruitment for those who join knowing that the skills they obtain are useless outside, but still chose (and have the ability) to fly in HM's ac.
Its well known that recruitment for pilots isn't a problem but retention is....and retention for WSOs isn't a problem but recruitment is.
Two problems...one solution. (Money)
Retention for those who have highly transferable skills (pilots) to keep them in,...
Recruitment for those who join knowing that the skills they obtain are useless outside, but still chose (and have the ability) to fly in HM's ac.
Its well known that recruitment for pilots isn't a problem but retention is....and retention for WSOs isn't a problem but recruitment is.
Two problems...one solution. (Money)
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2 reasons:
1) Years and years sat on an explosive seat day in day out, which you are quite likely to have to use, or if you're unlucky enough not to have one, not get out.
2) If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I know there is no shortage of people that want to be pilots, but if you want to attract the top people with lots of mental capacity you have to make the pay vaguely comparable to the jobs these people could get outside the military, which still pay much more than our salaries including flying pay. It's a fact of business, the more you pay, the better the calibre you get.
I have to be brutally honest and say that there are less people in the world that can fly a fast jet than can be an admin officer, so the pay reflects this. Perhaps an unpopular view, but in my opinion, fact all the same.
Mostly hidden away in my bunker awaiting tirade........
1) Years and years sat on an explosive seat day in day out, which you are quite likely to have to use, or if you're unlucky enough not to have one, not get out.
2) If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I know there is no shortage of people that want to be pilots, but if you want to attract the top people with lots of mental capacity you have to make the pay vaguely comparable to the jobs these people could get outside the military, which still pay much more than our salaries including flying pay. It's a fact of business, the more you pay, the better the calibre you get.
I have to be brutally honest and say that there are less people in the world that can fly a fast jet than can be an admin officer, so the pay reflects this. Perhaps an unpopular view, but in my opinion, fact all the same.
Mostly hidden away in my bunker awaiting tirade........
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h_p
Incentive and retention pay.... just the same as the airline boys are paid - speaking of which, we all tried to make a dent in our flying pay tonight but it's just impossible, and I get another inject of cash tomorrow...! Guess all that training was worth it then, and the whizzing around at breakneck speed is just the easy bit... right...!?
SSAP
Incentive and retention pay.... just the same as the airline boys are paid - speaking of which, we all tried to make a dent in our flying pay tonight but it's just impossible, and I get another inject of cash tomorrow...! Guess all that training was worth it then, and the whizzing around at breakneck speed is just the easy bit... right...!?
SSAP
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i-c,
Even as an engineer I have to agree. But there are other specialistaion who need the same. Isn't it curious how docs and dentists get "automatic" promotion?
Number of years ago I did my 5 min OCC talk on the need for professional pay. You know the one, you talk, no questions? Courting tomatoes as I do, I said that the only ones with a need for professional pay were pilots, engineers and ATC in that order, as they were the ones who really had the lives of others in their hands.
Still think that now.
And duck
sw
I have to be brutally honest and say that there are less people in the world that can fly a fast jet than can be an admin officer, so the pay reflects this.
Number of years ago I did my 5 min OCC talk on the need for professional pay. You know the one, you talk, no questions? Courting tomatoes as I do, I said that the only ones with a need for professional pay were pilots, engineers and ATC in that order, as they were the ones who really had the lives of others in their hands.
Still think that now.
And duck
sw
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5206
Who are the Blunties?
Well, its quite simple really. Engineers are NOT, nor are ATC (nor is my desk officer probably) but its all those pen pushers who do very little (or usually nothing) to get the job done ie man-plane-mission. You know the sort 'Mr Jobsworth'
You must have seen them? they live in secluded, comfortable, well lit air-conditioned buildings on the station such as 'hand-brake house' and the 'rockery' etc. And Yes, I do consider many suppliers as blunties.
Sadly, it is these people who are now running the air farce. The little sac/cpl scribblie who says 'sorry Sir, you can't go on an operation 'cos your aft will run out 3 days before you RTB. Or the rock who insists on you doing your CCS the week before you go on deployment, 'just in case you get delayed Sir, then you'll be out of date'
Now come on, have you not had experience of that? If not, then you are an extremely lucky chap quite frankly.
It was one of the main reasons why I left, and why so many leave still. What is even sadder is that this comes from the very top. Station Cdrs and Sqn Cdrs should be telling these ar$eholes to sod off, and stop interfering with the important things such as flying and fixing aircraft.
Back to bed now, been up all night! Being a civvie director (yes a co-director) aint all its cracked up to be either, but at least I can (and often do) tell the 'blunties' here who interfere with production, exactly where to go!!
Kind regards and love to ALL engineers
TSM
Who are the Blunties?
Well, its quite simple really. Engineers are NOT, nor are ATC (nor is my desk officer probably) but its all those pen pushers who do very little (or usually nothing) to get the job done ie man-plane-mission. You know the sort 'Mr Jobsworth'
You must have seen them? they live in secluded, comfortable, well lit air-conditioned buildings on the station such as 'hand-brake house' and the 'rockery' etc. And Yes, I do consider many suppliers as blunties.
Sadly, it is these people who are now running the air farce. The little sac/cpl scribblie who says 'sorry Sir, you can't go on an operation 'cos your aft will run out 3 days before you RTB. Or the rock who insists on you doing your CCS the week before you go on deployment, 'just in case you get delayed Sir, then you'll be out of date'
Now come on, have you not had experience of that? If not, then you are an extremely lucky chap quite frankly.
It was one of the main reasons why I left, and why so many leave still. What is even sadder is that this comes from the very top. Station Cdrs and Sqn Cdrs should be telling these ar$eholes to sod off, and stop interfering with the important things such as flying and fixing aircraft.
Back to bed now, been up all night! Being a civvie director (yes a co-director) aint all its cracked up to be either, but at least I can (and often do) tell the 'blunties' here who interfere with production, exactly where to go!!
Kind regards and love to ALL engineers
TSM
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Having lost a few mates in an a/c collision 2 years ago I am happy to include an element of danger money in my pay packet...
and if you want to disagree i suggest you aim your comments at the widows.
and if you want to disagree i suggest you aim your comments at the widows.
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Bag Man
Exactly as I was going to say and exactly the example I was going to give.
But does an extra bit of cash really make up for the increased risk of not coming home one day? Hard to say, but I expect if they stopped it, many would decide to fly in a job where getting shot at is not part of the job description.
Exactly as I was going to say and exactly the example I was going to give.
But does an extra bit of cash really make up for the increased risk of not coming home one day? Hard to say, but I expect if they stopped it, many would decide to fly in a job where getting shot at is not part of the job description.
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bagman,
I can understand your point of view and sympathise accordingly, however your argument holds little water,..more infantry die in accidents every year compared to pilots. Does this mean that they should get the same form of danger pay? Or should they just get on with the job that they signed up to do?
I can understand your point of view and sympathise accordingly, however your argument holds little water,..more infantry die in accidents every year compared to pilots. Does this mean that they should get the same form of danger pay? Or should they just get on with the job that they signed up to do?
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Hanger Pillock
Very basic misunderstanding of statistics there.
There may be more infantry dying in accidents, yes, but how many infantrymen are there compared to aircrew.
You chance of being one of the unfortunate aircrew is vastly greater
In case that is still too confusing
which odds would you rather go for if your life depended on it
20in 100000 or 4 in 300
incidently, do you buy lottery tickets?
Very basic misunderstanding of statistics there.
There may be more infantry dying in accidents, yes, but how many infantrymen are there compared to aircrew.
You chance of being one of the unfortunate aircrew is vastly greater
In case that is still too confusing
which odds would you rather go for if your life depended on it
20in 100000 or 4 in 300
incidently, do you buy lottery tickets?
Blunties....
Not normally one for the controversial slagging match type posts but just a couple of quick points:
1. Try getting hold of a blunty before 08:30, after 11:30, before 13:30 or after 16:00 or any other time they feel like having a chinwag or having a cup of tea.
2. Im very sorry but flying an aeroplane is a hell of a lot harder than sitting at a desk and I think deserves some sort of financial recompense (I am definitely not talking about gingers here).
I realise I am now going to get slate horrifically and will climb back in my box but why do we have the same arguments day after day?!
BV.
....incoming!
1. Try getting hold of a blunty before 08:30, after 11:30, before 13:30 or after 16:00 or any other time they feel like having a chinwag or having a cup of tea.
2. Im very sorry but flying an aeroplane is a hell of a lot harder than sitting at a desk and I think deserves some sort of financial recompense (I am definitely not talking about gingers here).
I realise I am now going to get slate horrifically and will climb back in my box but why do we have the same arguments day after day?!
BV.
....incoming!
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To the gobby tourist that obviously feels a bit threatened...
What have odds got to do with it??? Simple answer...money!
You cannot belittle the danger of being in the infantry simply becasue there are more of them. I'm sure they would love to get danger pay but the fact is that no government would be able to pay for it.
In the end, you join to do the job, you know what the job is before you join, you know what the pay is before you join. Unlike doctors, dentists, Engineers, etc you get trained to do the job, ie given the transferable skills that enable you to get a job with virgin that you then hang over the heads of the forces that results in retention pay (which I have no problem with).
As a matter of interest, if your associating flying pay with danger, should it be realted to the aircraft you fly (more accidents - more money?).
Should you get it when not on a flying tour?
What have odds got to do with it??? Simple answer...money!
You cannot belittle the danger of being in the infantry simply becasue there are more of them. I'm sure they would love to get danger pay but the fact is that no government would be able to pay for it.
In the end, you join to do the job, you know what the job is before you join, you know what the pay is before you join. Unlike doctors, dentists, Engineers, etc you get trained to do the job, ie given the transferable skills that enable you to get a job with virgin that you then hang over the heads of the forces that results in retention pay (which I have no problem with).
As a matter of interest, if your associating flying pay with danger, should it be realted to the aircraft you fly (more accidents - more money?).
Should you get it when not on a flying tour?
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Hanger Pillock
Infantrymen do get danger money.
They get paid quite a lot for what they do, i.e. a dangerous and arduous, but not particularly difficult job skill wise, precisely because it is dangerous and unpleasant and nobody would do it if it were paid as much as a civvy labourer for example.
Pilots however are paid less than their civvy counterparts with at least comparable skills required, whilst doing a more dangerous job.
And yes you should give flying pay on a ground tour, otherwise it would be more difficult to remind blunties that we are better than them, and I wouldn't be able to keep my Porsche and yacht.
Infantrymen do get danger money.
They get paid quite a lot for what they do, i.e. a dangerous and arduous, but not particularly difficult job skill wise, precisely because it is dangerous and unpleasant and nobody would do it if it were paid as much as a civvy labourer for example.
Pilots however are paid less than their civvy counterparts with at least comparable skills required, whilst doing a more dangerous job.
And yes you should give flying pay on a ground tour, otherwise it would be more difficult to remind blunties that we are better than them, and I wouldn't be able to keep my Porsche and yacht.
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Touchee (sorry for spelling) . . . porsche and yacht. Brilliant if I may say so . . .brings a chuckle to an old an wisened WSOp on nights who has just received the higher rate of afore-mentioned flying pay and having spent more than my fair share of time over the sand pit . . .feel I deserve it!
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Tourist,
you really have a pretty high opion of yourself don't you? The boys must like the 'I'm better than you attitude'.
Well liked are you?....probably not.
Anyway, besides the rude name calling which must go down well in the mess, answer the questions....
If flying pay is related to danger should pilots who fly 'safer' aircraft get paid less;
Why (seriously) should pilots get 'danger pay' from flying a desk.
This is your chance to justify yourself to others...dont be a ****. If you cant justify it you can take yout porsche and .....
you really have a pretty high opion of yourself don't you? The boys must like the 'I'm better than you attitude'.
Well liked are you?....probably not.
Anyway, besides the rude name calling which must go down well in the mess, answer the questions....
If flying pay is related to danger should pilots who fly 'safer' aircraft get paid less;
Why (seriously) should pilots get 'danger pay' from flying a desk.
This is your chance to justify yourself to others...dont be a ****. If you cant justify it you can take yout porsche and .....
Short Blunt Shock
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Hanger_Nob,
Tourist doesn't think he's better than the rest of US - he thinks he's better than YOU, which we all are.
We get flying pay because we are F**cking great, extra hard, and chicks dig us.
If you are jealous of Tourists Porsche and Yacht, or my TVR and small fleet of exotic motorcycles, then perhaps you should have worked harder at school.
16B
Tourist doesn't think he's better than the rest of US - he thinks he's better than YOU, which we all are.
We get flying pay because we are F**cking great, extra hard, and chicks dig us.
If you are jealous of Tourists Porsche and Yacht, or my TVR and small fleet of exotic motorcycles, then perhaps you should have worked harder at school.
16B
16 Blades, If flying was difficult, the groundcrew would be doing it.
aircrew, you should remember that the automatic pilot was invented circa 1943, the automatic groundcrew has not yet been invented, so who has the hardest job.
Maybe it is you who should have studied harder at school, any thicko can look fat in a growbag, but it takes brains to be a techie.
Waiting for incoming insults without logical reasoning behind....
aircrew, you should remember that the automatic pilot was invented circa 1943, the automatic groundcrew has not yet been invented, so who has the hardest job.
Maybe it is you who should have studied harder at school, any thicko can look fat in a growbag, but it takes brains to be a techie.
Waiting for incoming insults without logical reasoning behind....
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16 Blades,
Good answer baring in mind that youve no idea who i am or what my quals are (flying or accademic).
Resorting to insults is the easy way of avioding a sensible conversation. So why dont you justify your flying pay instead of showing your true intelliectual ability (by the way who switched your computer on for you).
Well, can you answer the questions or not????
1. If flying pay is danger pay, should it be related to aircraft type?
2. Why should you get it for doing a desk job?
Good answer baring in mind that youve no idea who i am or what my quals are (flying or accademic).
Resorting to insults is the easy way of avioding a sensible conversation. So why dont you justify your flying pay instead of showing your true intelliectual ability (by the way who switched your computer on for you).
Well, can you answer the questions or not????
1. If flying pay is danger pay, should it be related to aircraft type?
2. Why should you get it for doing a desk job?
I didn't think it was danger pay; I thought it was to reflect that the job was pretty advanced, pretty technical, and pretty well-paid in the civilian sector.
Hence if you fly a "safer" aircraft, you still get the same amount because you'd be earning more doing the civilian equivalent job; and if your jet is safer, someone in an "unsafe" aircraft can still stack into it, right?
Likewise, if you're doing a ground tour, you should get it because said ground tour requires an aircrew mate to do it. If it doesn't, then someone with complex perishable skills shouldn't be doing it, and if you removed flying pay for it, no-one would do it and people would leave if you forced them into it.
I think a good reply to the autopilot comment would be to ask how many fin navs would happily go into combat with a computer in the front instead of a pilot.
At the end of the day, to go back to one of the first comments on this thread to do with "doing the job they signed up for;" I enjoy doing the job I signed up for, and part of the terms I looked at as I signed up stated that I was paid more for doing it than a similarly aged and qualified supplier or controller.
I don't understand why people moan about people being paid more for their job. I signed up for this, and I'm very glad of my (still relatively meagre) flying pay; and there's no reason why anyone complaining about it can't stick their papers in to go to OASC and have a crack at it themselves. If you don't have any wish to do the job, then you don't have any right to moan about how much it pays. I don't want to be a stockbroker, so I don't give a s*** that they outearn me; can't we all think like that?
Hence if you fly a "safer" aircraft, you still get the same amount because you'd be earning more doing the civilian equivalent job; and if your jet is safer, someone in an "unsafe" aircraft can still stack into it, right?
Likewise, if you're doing a ground tour, you should get it because said ground tour requires an aircrew mate to do it. If it doesn't, then someone with complex perishable skills shouldn't be doing it, and if you removed flying pay for it, no-one would do it and people would leave if you forced them into it.
I think a good reply to the autopilot comment would be to ask how many fin navs would happily go into combat with a computer in the front instead of a pilot.
At the end of the day, to go back to one of the first comments on this thread to do with "doing the job they signed up for;" I enjoy doing the job I signed up for, and part of the terms I looked at as I signed up stated that I was paid more for doing it than a similarly aged and qualified supplier or controller.
I don't understand why people moan about people being paid more for their job. I signed up for this, and I'm very glad of my (still relatively meagre) flying pay; and there's no reason why anyone complaining about it can't stick their papers in to go to OASC and have a crack at it themselves. If you don't have any wish to do the job, then you don't have any right to moan about how much it pays. I don't want to be a stockbroker, so I don't give a s*** that they outearn me; can't we all think like that?