Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?
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Many years ago, when station budgets first reared their ugly head,I questioned how the performance indicators were ever going to work. The main performance indicator for an armed service is "how many people did you kill last year?" So if we don't have a decent war we will not have performed well and our budgets will be cut.
Ah, now I see what happened!
Ah, now I see what happened!
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Does anyone here think that the future is bright? (Not orange) Certainly in the RN we are looking forward to the future.
Future Navy is a very exciting programme which will see the RN blend our capibilities and will be optimised for mission success across the full range of military tasks.
Future Navy will provide task configured maritime capabilities to contribute to the differing scales of effort defined in policy guidance.
We are also working towards delivering global reach and presence with afloat and shore-based sustainability, generating persistence to operate in a decisive manner or make a significant contribution to campaign success.
OK, that may all be management speak but the things that matter to me on the front line is equipment and people.
As far as equipment goes, we recently brought into service the worlds best ASW helicopter which is certainly proving its worth. As for Fixed wing, well we have started to select the pilots of the future who will fly the JSF. The introduction into service of HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are major events for this country. It will have been well over 40 years since this country has operated Aircraft Carriers which will have the ability to fly continuously for weeks rather than days.
As for the secret world, well HMS Astute, HMS Ambush and HMS Artful, all new Astute class SSN's are being built in Barrow. Amphibiosity (how do you spell that?) is important and we have recently accepted HMS Bulwark and Albion and these all form part of a great plan which includes the new Bay class landing ships.
HMS Mersey is here which is the 3rd of the new river class. Not forgetting of course what will undoubtedly be the worlds most advanced Destroyer. The Type 45 is a world beater and will significantly enhance the war fighting capibilities of the RN.
So, whats the problem? Well we are desperately short of manpower. My squadron is gapped about 35% which is why we are keeping the FRI. But, the manpower problem is being addressed and with luck and some good planning we will be back to normal soon. So, all in all the future of the RN is bright. I like being in the RN. Its a great job, the people are great, the kit is good and I wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work and flying. For those of you who don't have that feeling when they wake up, perhaps you should have another look at your needs and aspirations. If you don't like the services then please leave, BUT don't harp on about how bad it is when actually its great.
woooops, nearly fell orf me soapbox there.
Future Navy is a very exciting programme which will see the RN blend our capibilities and will be optimised for mission success across the full range of military tasks.
Future Navy will provide task configured maritime capabilities to contribute to the differing scales of effort defined in policy guidance.
We are also working towards delivering global reach and presence with afloat and shore-based sustainability, generating persistence to operate in a decisive manner or make a significant contribution to campaign success.
OK, that may all be management speak but the things that matter to me on the front line is equipment and people.
As far as equipment goes, we recently brought into service the worlds best ASW helicopter which is certainly proving its worth. As for Fixed wing, well we have started to select the pilots of the future who will fly the JSF. The introduction into service of HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are major events for this country. It will have been well over 40 years since this country has operated Aircraft Carriers which will have the ability to fly continuously for weeks rather than days.
As for the secret world, well HMS Astute, HMS Ambush and HMS Artful, all new Astute class SSN's are being built in Barrow. Amphibiosity (how do you spell that?) is important and we have recently accepted HMS Bulwark and Albion and these all form part of a great plan which includes the new Bay class landing ships.
HMS Mersey is here which is the 3rd of the new river class. Not forgetting of course what will undoubtedly be the worlds most advanced Destroyer. The Type 45 is a world beater and will significantly enhance the war fighting capibilities of the RN.
So, whats the problem? Well we are desperately short of manpower. My squadron is gapped about 35% which is why we are keeping the FRI. But, the manpower problem is being addressed and with luck and some good planning we will be back to normal soon. So, all in all the future of the RN is bright. I like being in the RN. Its a great job, the people are great, the kit is good and I wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work and flying. For those of you who don't have that feeling when they wake up, perhaps you should have another look at your needs and aspirations. If you don't like the services then please leave, BUT don't harp on about how bad it is when actually its great.
woooops, nearly fell orf me soapbox there.
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I haven't looked at this site in 12 months and it's good to see nothing has changed.
The RAF is going down the pan, ever faster, and the only real answer is to realise that we mere mortals can do nothing about it.
I, for one, have had enough of dets, time away from family etc and, after 22 years, me and my pension are out of here. It's a sad day as I never thought I'd see the day when I PVR'd, but I can't do this anymore. My family comes first.
There never was any light at the end of the tunnel. That was just a rumour!
The RAF is going down the pan, ever faster, and the only real answer is to realise that we mere mortals can do nothing about it.
I, for one, have had enough of dets, time away from family etc and, after 22 years, me and my pension are out of here. It's a sad day as I never thought I'd see the day when I PVR'd, but I can't do this anymore. My family comes first.
There never was any light at the end of the tunnel. That was just a rumour!
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Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?
I'd be interested to know if it's just us that can't buy things without bending over a barrel...
I'd be interested to know if it's just us that can't buy things without bending over a barrel...
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Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget?
cash lifeline to a troubled shipyard which sits near the constituencies of
Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior Cabinet ministers.
The timing, coming just months before the
expected election in May, was described by the Tories as "suspicious".
The Ministry of Defence said the money was made available to Swan Hunter so
it could complete a £160m contract for two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels
after the yard found it needed more money to complete the job. The MoD also
allowed Swan Hunter to deliver the first ship one year later than planned
in 2006.
An MoD spokesman said: "They [Swan Hunter] under-estimated the engineering
requirement in the design and construction of the ships. We agreed an £84m
contract amendment for the revised programme to fill the technical
deficiencies of the company to take forward the project." He added that the
extra money provided the best value for money for taxpayers.
Jaap Kroese, the yard's owner,
blamed the need for the cash call on late design changes by the MoD. "The
MoD changed the design. The original offer was for entirely different
ships." This was denied by the MoD.
Gerald Howarth, the Conservatives' defence procurement spokesman,
said: "The
Government has won Olympic gold for manipulating conditions for elections
and it is the duty of the Opposition to be suspicious and I am suspicious."
The news was greeted with frustration by defence industry sources. One
said: "Because of the region where Swan Hunter is based, some would argue
that the move has been made for political reasons.
Funny, because they did nothing to help Appledore Shipyard - although it isn't in (or likely to be in) a Labour constituency. Neither is the constituency next to it, which I live in. Back to Appledore, a few months ago they were competing for the replacement for the Castle class patrol vesels. ONE will supoosedly do the same job as two, despite one being UK based and the other one in the Falklands. How can one ship be in two places at once?
On that note, regardless of how good T45/Astute are, the fact is the numbers of frigates/destroyers/SSNs is being cut. Most of the activities of our Forces are not high intensity warfighting, yet our ability to do lower intensity stuff is being reduced. Additionally the level of protection for high value assets in high intensity ops is reduced. What good are the LPD(R) if they can't be protected by frigates/destroyers/aircraft?
This recent session at the defence select commitee might help make my point.
And the other Services are experiencing the Governments "small sword. no armour" policy. Consider air defence reductions, GBAD, personnel cuts so they are less people for guard duties, FRES, etc etc etc.
I know of people who on the first night of Telic found themelves driving into Iraq unescorted in unarmoured vehicles, with no radios, no ammunition for their weapons, no body armour......
It's very easy for Blair or Hoon to boost about our offesnsive assets but it's not them taking the risks. Nor are they the ones waiting for bad news, fearing the worst with every phone call, every knock at the door.
Incidentally, how many troops wounded in Iraq have been visited by Blair? None!
On that note, regardless of how good T45/Astute are, the fact is the numbers of frigates/destroyers/SSNs is being cut. Most of the activities of our Forces are not high intensity warfighting, yet our ability to do lower intensity stuff is being reduced. Additionally the level of protection for high value assets in high intensity ops is reduced. What good are the LPD(R) if they can't be protected by frigates/destroyers/aircraft?
This recent session at the defence select commitee might help make my point.
And the other Services are experiencing the Governments "small sword. no armour" policy. Consider air defence reductions, GBAD, personnel cuts so they are less people for guard duties, FRES, etc etc etc.
I know of people who on the first night of Telic found themelves driving into Iraq unescorted in unarmoured vehicles, with no radios, no ammunition for their weapons, no body armour......
It's very easy for Blair or Hoon to boost about our offesnsive assets but it's not them taking the risks. Nor are they the ones waiting for bad news, fearing the worst with every phone call, every knock at the door.
Incidentally, how many troops wounded in Iraq have been visited by Blair? None!
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Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?
The LPDs have been brought into service having had the hangar and 2 decks of accommodation and office spaces cut. Funding for NVG compatible flight deck removed (T23s done first - BARKING!)
The LSD(A)s had the hangar taken out of the original design as a cost reduction measure.
Result: Ocean is the only amphib platform with hangar and therefore full maintenance facilities, last time I looked we only had one, so what happens if she's in refit etc? Major OC reduction for a paltry cost saving.
However it's lucky we don't have enough helos to operate off shipping at the moment.
No, there is not enough money in the pot and therefore the salami slicing goes on. This is never going to change.
I wish I had an answer but I can't find one, the only way is to stop buying the gold plated solutions for every bit of kit we purchase and to get more savvy when dealing with defence contractors and suppliers. Not easy when so many senior offciers and civil servants join said contractors quickly after leaving the MOD.....
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But this is not new is it? In fact those who will remember the 1960's will recall the reaction to having contracts cancelled and by having to make cost cutting measures.
Making cost cuts doesn't make things bad. It has always happened and it will always happen. Thats the nature of the business we are in. If we want to spend a lot of money on 2 new Carriers we have to expect a lot of change to the spec, the costs, the requirement.
Example. When the requirement for a new all dancing, all singing ASW helicopter was written we were still in the habit of chasing the Russians all over the Atlantic. By the time the aircraft entered service the Russians were our friends and indeed some of them had became NATO partners. But change is good, change makes us sharp and keen.
And whilst the requirement changes then so does the spec and so does the cost. Thats not anyones fault. It happens and it will always happen. The only time that cost isn't driven is when procuring COTS. One last example.
OK, the Hangar was removed because we couldn't afford it. We had budgetted £ x and the ships plus Hangars would cost £ x plus z. so something had to go. Options are scrap the whole thing OR go for a cheaper option. So whats wrong wioth that? Thats basic economics. And as for the NVG option....why was it cut. Because there wasn't a requirement. If there isn't a requirement then it doesn't get costed.
Making cost cuts doesn't make things bad. It has always happened and it will always happen. Thats the nature of the business we are in. If we want to spend a lot of money on 2 new Carriers we have to expect a lot of change to the spec, the costs, the requirement.
Example. When the requirement for a new all dancing, all singing ASW helicopter was written we were still in the habit of chasing the Russians all over the Atlantic. By the time the aircraft entered service the Russians were our friends and indeed some of them had became NATO partners. But change is good, change makes us sharp and keen.
And whilst the requirement changes then so does the spec and so does the cost. Thats not anyones fault. It happens and it will always happen. The only time that cost isn't driven is when procuring COTS. One last example.
The LSD(A)s had the hangar taken out of the original design as a cost reduction measure
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Let me first state that I am a rubber desk johnny, and too cavkhanded and shortsighted to be an aviator - but someone has to stack the blankets.
I am glad that you are so optimistic hyd3. From where I sit I have very little faith that we will ever see the carriers (or the aircraft to fly from them). With borrowing already running to nearly twice the entire annual budget for all government departments, there are no votes in them and they will quietly evaporate after the election.
The lean manning of the new DARING Class frigates may warm the heart of the bean counters but we are going to be very hard pressed indeed to get people way for courses, leave and AT when in home waters and disater relief may be quite tricky when you can land half the ship's company and find that you have fewer than 50 hands. There are pennypinching and politically correct assumptions being made about the ASTUTE class which need not be aired here that also give rise to concern.
The oceans of the world upon which this country still depends so much for trade have become no smaller, but we have ever fewer hulls.
We do still have some of the best trained and best motivated sailors in the world, but we are unmistakably an organisation in decline, and the priorities which determine how decisions are made are frankly unhinged. We are mortgaging our future in dubious PFI deals with industry which ties us into long agreements and laughs all the way to the bank, and at the same time acceping hidden cuts in the form of charges under RAB for "assets"
The chorus about the unclad nature of the Emperor is not whingeing by folk who liked things better inm the good old days, but the anxious murmur of people who think that the driver is asleep at the wheel.
The very best of all three Services is the "can do" attitude demonstrated daily worldwide but nicely summed up by the exchange of signals when HMS AMETHYST escaped the Chinese guns after have been shelled and bottled up in the Yangtse River, limping along oin one shaft at 4 knots:
ADMIRALTY TO AMETHYST
Can you make it to Singapore?
AMETHYST TO ADMIRALTY
Could make it to Portsmouth if ordered.
This is also our greatest weakness. In George Orwell's 1984 the constant refrain of Boxer the carthorse was "I must work harder" The same fate awaits us at the hands of this spendthrift, cynical and illiberal regime - the knacker's van.
I am glad that you are so optimistic hyd3. From where I sit I have very little faith that we will ever see the carriers (or the aircraft to fly from them). With borrowing already running to nearly twice the entire annual budget for all government departments, there are no votes in them and they will quietly evaporate after the election.
The lean manning of the new DARING Class frigates may warm the heart of the bean counters but we are going to be very hard pressed indeed to get people way for courses, leave and AT when in home waters and disater relief may be quite tricky when you can land half the ship's company and find that you have fewer than 50 hands. There are pennypinching and politically correct assumptions being made about the ASTUTE class which need not be aired here that also give rise to concern.
The oceans of the world upon which this country still depends so much for trade have become no smaller, but we have ever fewer hulls.
We do still have some of the best trained and best motivated sailors in the world, but we are unmistakably an organisation in decline, and the priorities which determine how decisions are made are frankly unhinged. We are mortgaging our future in dubious PFI deals with industry which ties us into long agreements and laughs all the way to the bank, and at the same time acceping hidden cuts in the form of charges under RAB for "assets"
The chorus about the unclad nature of the Emperor is not whingeing by folk who liked things better inm the good old days, but the anxious murmur of people who think that the driver is asleep at the wheel.
The very best of all three Services is the "can do" attitude demonstrated daily worldwide but nicely summed up by the exchange of signals when HMS AMETHYST escaped the Chinese guns after have been shelled and bottled up in the Yangtse River, limping along oin one shaft at 4 knots:
ADMIRALTY TO AMETHYST
Can you make it to Singapore?
AMETHYST TO ADMIRALTY
Could make it to Portsmouth if ordered.
This is also our greatest weakness. In George Orwell's 1984 the constant refrain of Boxer the carthorse was "I must work harder" The same fate awaits us at the hands of this spendthrift, cynical and illiberal regime - the knacker's van.
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Good post and some pertinent points, particularly wrt lean manning. However, they are just management issues and like you say, we'll make it work and it will work just fine. Fortunately we are used to lean manning particularly with the experiences of the T23 and of course Ocean.
I’m sure anyone who has served on a T23 will initially have been taken aback at the level of “chipping in” that has to be done. Store ship, TOW, RAS are all “whole ship” evolutions, which (for the RAF readers) includes Officers – yes guys, the Officers have to store ship…OMG.
But I can say from experience that the level of camaraderie on T23’s is the best I have ever witnessed. Despite its lean manning I would willingly serve on a T23 again (and again) if required.
I’m sure anyone who has served on a T23 will initially have been taken aback at the level of “chipping in” that has to be done. Store ship, TOW, RAS are all “whole ship” evolutions, which (for the RAF readers) includes Officers – yes guys, the Officers have to store ship…OMG.
But I can say from experience that the level of camaraderie on T23’s is the best I have ever witnessed. Despite its lean manning I would willingly serve on a T23 again (and again) if required.
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Hyd3,
I think you finished off the answer to the question:
Capability removed
Late
Over budget (plus another 84 mil!)
Your comment about no requirement for an NVG capability on an amphibious platform in both ill-informed and indicative of the lack of knowledge of amphibiosity which pervades 'Fleet'. Tell that to 849 post Telic.
I am scared for the aviation capability of the UK amphib forces, and what would happen if Ocean was unavailable. Especially as the days of the 'available CVS' come to an end.
So where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Our equipment grows ever older (Sea King to 2040 mooted), we are asked to work increasingly harder for a salary which declines in real terms year on year.
As has already been stated, there in not enough money in the pot and defence in not a vote winner and until the Chinese begin to flex their muscles will not be. By then it will be far too late to regenerate UK defence capability.
In the last 4 years I have gradually lost the desire to work for promotion to the upper echelons, believing I could do some good on the way, there is no good to be done, just minimising the decay on a daily basis.
The UK has lost all focus and identity, the future is far from rosy and I fear sharp decline is no more than 5 years away, with increasing borrowing now and the demands of an aging population beginning to tell.
When the rights of the fox are greater than the rights of the individual, something has to change.
I think you finished off the answer to the question:
Have these new ships been bought properly? Are they on time and within budget? Are they decked out with the full kit you need, or have bits been removed for cost saving?
Late
Over budget (plus another 84 mil!)
Your comment about no requirement for an NVG capability on an amphibious platform in both ill-informed and indicative of the lack of knowledge of amphibiosity which pervades 'Fleet'. Tell that to 849 post Telic.
I am scared for the aviation capability of the UK amphib forces, and what would happen if Ocean was unavailable. Especially as the days of the 'available CVS' come to an end.
So where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Our equipment grows ever older (Sea King to 2040 mooted), we are asked to work increasingly harder for a salary which declines in real terms year on year.
As has already been stated, there in not enough money in the pot and defence in not a vote winner and until the Chinese begin to flex their muscles will not be. By then it will be far too late to regenerate UK defence capability.
In the last 4 years I have gradually lost the desire to work for promotion to the upper echelons, believing I could do some good on the way, there is no good to be done, just minimising the decay on a daily basis.
The UK has lost all focus and identity, the future is far from rosy and I fear sharp decline is no more than 5 years away, with increasing borrowing now and the demands of an aging population beginning to tell.
When the rights of the fox are greater than the rights of the individual, something has to change.
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Reference my previous entry of a united stand against the politicians.
A good start would be to agree on a policy of all floating things to be operated by the Navy, all flying to be done by the RAF, and all soldier type things to be done by the Army.
This would mean, inter alia, any carriers would be Navy but its aircraft flown by the RAF. Bye Bye RAF Regiment and Royal Marines - Army specialists to do this. Millions saved and a united service front!
A good start would be to agree on a policy of all floating things to be operated by the Navy, all flying to be done by the RAF, and all soldier type things to be done by the Army.
This would mean, inter alia, any carriers would be Navy but its aircraft flown by the RAF. Bye Bye RAF Regiment and Royal Marines - Army specialists to do this. Millions saved and a united service front!
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It seems sad that life over at Zulu is as poor as that. Certainly, life at Yankee is upbeat, bright and we are looking forward to the future. Maybe you should bite the bullet and cross the road to utopia.
Wuld you do me the honour of responding to each point seperately.
Apologies I didn't see the requirement. Do you have a copy of the paperwork? Nope. Thats because an SOR hasn't been raised. And why not? because there isn't a requirement.
What about Albion and Bulwark? What about Largs Bay, Lyme Bay, Mounts Bay, Cardigan Bay. What with thiose and Ocean that must amount to a very expensive and capable amphibious force.... So what do we do without Ocean...? Well, we do exactly what we did prior to 1999. How did we cope without Ocean? The RN haven't operate4d an LPH for some considerable time prior to 1999 so how did we cope prior to that?
Our equipment grows older????? What about Merlin? Apache ? MRA4 ? Ruler class, river class....do I need to go on..?
Concur. But I think the chances of the UK having to take on the might of China singlehandledly is remote.
Your'e not trying hard enough.
Rubbish. You watch, as soon as England win Euro06 the feel good factor will regenerate this country
Wuld you do me the honour of responding to each point seperately.
Your comment about no requirement for an NVG capability on an amphibious platform in both ill-informed and indicative of the lack of knowledge of amphibiosity which pervades 'Fleet'. Tell that to 849 post Telic.
I am scared for the aviation capability of the UK amphib forces, and what would happen if Ocean was unavailable. Especially as the days of the 'available CVS' come to an end.
So where is the light at the end of the tunnel? Our equipment grows ever older (Sea King to 2040 mooted), we are asked to work increasingly harder for a salary which declines in real terms year on year.
As has already been stated, there in not enough money in the pot and defence in not a vote winner and until the Chinese begin to flex their muscles will not be. By then it will be far too late to regenerate UK defence capability.
In the last 4 years I have gradually lost the desire to work for promotion to the upper echelons, believing I could do some good on the way, there is no good to be done, just minimising the decay on a daily basis.
The UK has lost all focus and identity, the future is far from rosy and I fear sharp decline is no more than 5 years away, with increasing borrowing now and the demands of an aging population beginning to tell.
h3f
As an aside it was euro 2004. In 2006 it will be the world cup (football)and is in Germany "der weltmeistershaft" I think, and even as an Englishman I don't think that a home nation winning it would send waves of euphoria sweeping the British isles.
Now please put your fishing gear away and go and enjoy a tot of pussers
edited because wine affects my spooling
As an aside it was euro 2004. In 2006 it will be the world cup (football)and is in Germany "der weltmeistershaft" I think, and even as an Englishman I don't think that a home nation winning it would send waves of euphoria sweeping the British isles.
Now please put your fishing gear away and go and enjoy a tot of pussers
edited because wine affects my spooling
Last edited by insty66; 28th Jan 2005 at 23:46.
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Melch, absolutely spot on; couldn't agree more.
Fawkes, don't have any experience of what life is like for you in dark blue, but seems it can't be great either.
By the way, I think Boxer was in Animal Farm; 1984 was the novel when Big Brother was always watching you.... well, either him or some pedantic t**t like me!!
Fawkes, don't have any experience of what life is like for you in dark blue, but seems it can't be great either.
By the way, I think Boxer was in Animal Farm; 1984 was the novel when Big Brother was always watching you.... well, either him or some pedantic t**t like me!!
