Flying pay for UK Mams.
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Glad to see that so far the Loadies (as far as I'm aware) have kept out of this farce. All the vitriolic postings , for whatever reason, seem to have come from front enders or semi front enders ( a Nav for God's sake).
16Blades,
posted 3rd May 2004 14:04
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" I may be stating the obvious, but since this this site is designed for AIRCREW and this thread specifically for MILITARY AIRCREW, WTF are movers doing posting here anyway? surely you should be in the wannabe's forum, if anywhere? The fact that muppets are on here at all says it all really.......you ARE all aircrew wannabes! "
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A chip on your shoulder the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. Obviously some Mover has in the past given you or someone close to you a good shafting. You do realise that counselling is available for those like yourself.
Have you made it to the left hand seat yet or are your demons as far as Movers concerned holding you back ?
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" I re-iterate:
"I would most certainly NOT allow movers on my aircraft to direct pax in the event of an emergency evacuation, as THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO SO"
Important bit in capitals, for the hard of thinking.
Movers are baggage / freight handlers. Nothing more. So stop pretending you're anything else."
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You may regret these words one day when the sh!t hits the fan and you're left to stew !!
Edited for a bit of tidying up.
16Blades,
posted 3rd May 2004 14:04
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" I may be stating the obvious, but since this this site is designed for AIRCREW and this thread specifically for MILITARY AIRCREW, WTF are movers doing posting here anyway? surely you should be in the wannabe's forum, if anywhere? The fact that muppets are on here at all says it all really.......you ARE all aircrew wannabes! "
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A chip on your shoulder the size of the Rock of Gibraltar. Obviously some Mover has in the past given you or someone close to you a good shafting. You do realise that counselling is available for those like yourself.
Have you made it to the left hand seat yet or are your demons as far as Movers concerned holding you back ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I re-iterate:
"I would most certainly NOT allow movers on my aircraft to direct pax in the event of an emergency evacuation, as THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO SO"
Important bit in capitals, for the hard of thinking.
Movers are baggage / freight handlers. Nothing more. So stop pretending you're anything else."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may regret these words one day when the sh!t hits the fan and you're left to stew !!
Edited for a bit of tidying up.
Last edited by Echo 5; 15th Dec 2004 at 21:41.
Short Blunt Shock
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E5,
You are correct, I do not like movers, but not because I was stung by one as a child. I have come across some good blokes on MAMS and Base, and know a few personally but on the whole, Movers are arrogant, incompetent, and totally convinced of their own imagined indispensability. As I already posted, Aircrew are essential to the completion of a task, movers (of the mobile variety) are not.
This attitude has developed with years of experience of dealing with them, both professionally and, on occasion, socially, and not simple naked prejudice, as you suggest.
Remember, in civvy street you would be simple baggage handlers and check-in staff, who are paid f**k all - that is how an open marketplace regards these trades. Pilots, on the other hand, are paid roughly twice what the service pays us, and can usually find such employment with ease on leaving the service. I rather think that the chips are all on mover shoulders, not aircrew.
And if the "sh1t hits the fan", I shall be the LAST to leave my aircraft as convention dictates. Why should I allow ANYONE on my aircraft to do things they are not qualified for, and only THINK they know how to do? To do so would be a gross negligence of responsibility.
16B
You are correct, I do not like movers, but not because I was stung by one as a child. I have come across some good blokes on MAMS and Base, and know a few personally but on the whole, Movers are arrogant, incompetent, and totally convinced of their own imagined indispensability. As I already posted, Aircrew are essential to the completion of a task, movers (of the mobile variety) are not.
This attitude has developed with years of experience of dealing with them, both professionally and, on occasion, socially, and not simple naked prejudice, as you suggest.
Remember, in civvy street you would be simple baggage handlers and check-in staff, who are paid f**k all - that is how an open marketplace regards these trades. Pilots, on the other hand, are paid roughly twice what the service pays us, and can usually find such employment with ease on leaving the service. I rather think that the chips are all on mover shoulders, not aircrew.
And if the "sh1t hits the fan", I shall be the LAST to leave my aircraft as convention dictates. Why should I allow ANYONE on my aircraft to do things they are not qualified for, and only THINK they know how to do? To do so would be a gross negligence of responsibility.
16B
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Dirty Sanchez
"Aircrew,by that I mean pilots and maybe navs"
We have a reply on Rods for attitudes like that, shut the f@*k up and just drive the bloody bus!
If you work on an aircraft whilst it is airborne, to get it's job done, then surely you must be aircrew.
Just because you drive it, doesn't mean that you can work it all by yourself, single seaters excluded, obviously.
RR
"Aircrew,by that I mean pilots and maybe navs"
We have a reply on Rods for attitudes like that, shut the f@*k up and just drive the bloody bus!
If you work on an aircraft whilst it is airborne, to get it's job done, then surely you must be aircrew.
Just because you drive it, doesn't mean that you can work it all by yourself, single seaters excluded, obviously.
RR
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S0d the rest of the banter (and handbags - 16B - ooOOOooo - look at you!) - I want to know who the Chief Mover is at Air Marshal level?! Being a Supply Officer with a Movements qualification (note - do not believe I have supernatural powers here) I am wondering who is secretly the head man. Seeing as the Supply Branch of officers covers the management of the Movements Trade, then the Head of Branch is an Air Commodore. I know that - I met him. Seeing as the Chief Engineer is higher than that, then I want to know who it is I work for? Other than CAS of course.
Sanchez. Those that fly just do the bit to get the platform around. Our role is to project air power, not to put men in the sky. Therefore, those that fly are part of the team to put that lump of metal and string somewhere in time and space. The aircraft is the important bit.
They'll have unmanned aircraft before freight can load itself. Oh - they do? Soopah.
Sanchez. Those that fly just do the bit to get the platform around. Our role is to project air power, not to put men in the sky. Therefore, those that fly are part of the team to put that lump of metal and string somewhere in time and space. The aircraft is the important bit.
They'll have unmanned aircraft before freight can load itself. Oh - they do? Soopah.
Short Blunt Shock
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Thank you, Mr 900kgs per linear ft - I'll put my handbag away now!
Personally, I think we'll see fully automated condecs and aircraft loading systems before we'll see unmanned aircraft in operation - after all, Russian freighters have had aircraft-mounted crane systems for years - one man loading! (by the loadie)
Would YOU fly as a pax on an unmanned aircraft?
16B
Personally, I think we'll see fully automated condecs and aircraft loading systems before we'll see unmanned aircraft in operation - after all, Russian freighters have had aircraft-mounted crane systems for years - one man loading! (by the loadie)
Would YOU fly as a pax on an unmanned aircraft?
16B
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16B
After browsing round this site I have to ask. Do you actualy do any of this flying gibberish you are continualy ramming down our necks, as it seems to me you spend all your time either posting or bleating on PPrune.
MM
After browsing round this site I have to ask. Do you actualy do any of this flying gibberish you are continualy ramming down our necks, as it seems to me you spend all your time either posting or bleating on PPrune.
MM
Short Blunt Shock
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MM,
I'm touched that you took the trouble. Maybe if you don't like the 'flying gibberish' 'rammed down your neck', may I suggest you are in the wrong job?
I'm not a particularly prolific poster on this site, compared to most (or you, with my 0.2 posts per day compared to your 0.1) - only when I find myself with some time on my hands.
I will concede, however, that I do like to bleat here from time to time, but only because the service takes a dim view of those who do it openly at work.
16B
I'm touched that you took the trouble. Maybe if you don't like the 'flying gibberish' 'rammed down your neck', may I suggest you are in the wrong job?
I'm not a particularly prolific poster on this site, compared to most (or you, with my 0.2 posts per day compared to your 0.1) - only when I find myself with some time on my hands.
I will concede, however, that I do like to bleat here from time to time, but only because the service takes a dim view of those who do it openly at work.
16B
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"I was on a VC10 where we had to jump down the emergency chutes. Who was at the top directing the pax to jump? The MAMS Fg Off and Sgt.
I re-iterate:
"I would most certainly NOT allow movers on my aircraft to direct pax in the event of an emergency evacuation, as THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO SO"
I re-iterate:
"I would most certainly NOT allow movers on my aircraft to direct pax in the event of an emergency evacuation, as THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO SO"
The ALM "fell" down the chute as soon it opened.
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Just a quick question for the movers. If you are all so good and deserve all the extra pay for looking after loads, where is my bl**dy Nav bag and Headset you lot lost 6 months ago? How hard can it be to find 4 very large tri-wall boxes, they are all labelled, all you have to do is get off your arses and remember where you put them.
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Bob,
" If you are all so good and deserve all the extra pay for looking after loads,"
Sorry mate but the extra pay isn't for looking after loads but for having to fly with some of the prats that have been posting on this thread.
Sorry again that your kit still hasn't turned up.
Regards to all non vitriolic persons.
E5.
" If you are all so good and deserve all the extra pay for looking after loads,"
Sorry mate but the extra pay isn't for looking after loads but for having to fly with some of the prats that have been posting on this thread.
Sorry again that your kit still hasn't turned up.
Regards to all non vitriolic persons.
E5.
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So, let me just get this straight 
Movers that deploy on aircraft so that they can unload/rerole/load the aircraft when it is on the ground get 'crew' pay for flying (in other words 'flying' pay)
If that is the case I will be heading straight to the powers that be to get our Norman groundies 'crew' pay when they fly with us on deployment so that they can AF/BF and fix our mighty hunters
Must echo some of the words already written... from my experience of AT flights around the world (yes, even other aircrew have to use AT at times
) movers really are a bunch of unhelpful to$$ers. One exception I have come across (not literally 
) was a female mover that was recently(ish) in Basrah
MadMark!!!
Movers that deploy on aircraft so that they can unload/rerole/load the aircraft when it is on the ground get 'crew' pay for flying (in other words 'flying' pay)
If that is the case I will be heading straight to the powers that be to get our Norman groundies 'crew' pay when they fly with us on deployment so that they can AF/BF and fix our mighty hunters Must echo some of the words already written... from my experience of AT flights around the world (yes, even other aircrew have to use AT at times
) movers really are a bunch of unhelpful to$$ers. One exception I have come across (not literally ) was a female mover that was recently(ish) in Basrah MadMark!!!
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Well Bob and Mark,16B and the rest,
Despite the fact that only a few movers post on this site, mostly to the bait that you aircrew blokes throw at us shows how much you all look down your nose at us low lifes (movers) and how much you all hate us.
Sorry but in ten years i have never had a bad word to say against anyone i've worked with, but for any outsider reading this thread they must look in disbelieve.
Glad to know that a few bad movers have made such an impression on you that were all tW@ts that you tarnish us with the same brush. Next time i'm away i might look behind my back to see who is stabbing me in it. Thanks for all your support.
Pay has no issue on this thread, just a chance to slag off anyone and everyone.. again.. please grow up. 95% of movers have no say in policy we just do what we do.
MM
Despite the fact that only a few movers post on this site, mostly to the bait that you aircrew blokes throw at us shows how much you all look down your nose at us low lifes (movers) and how much you all hate us.
Sorry but in ten years i have never had a bad word to say against anyone i've worked with, but for any outsider reading this thread they must look in disbelieve.
Glad to know that a few bad movers have made such an impression on you that were all tW@ts that you tarnish us with the same brush. Next time i'm away i might look behind my back to see who is stabbing me in it. Thanks for all your support.
Pay has no issue on this thread, just a chance to slag off anyone and everyone.. again.. please grow up. 95% of movers have no say in policy we just do what we do.
MM
Short Blunt Shock
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OK, this looks like it's getting a bit serious now, so I'll lay the banter aside for a bit.
MM, it's not so much WHAT movers do but the WAY they do it that annoys aircrew. As long as the movements world indoctrinates its exponents with the "Aircrew are just bus drivers - we're the REAL sharp end" attitude (and that attitude as rife among the MAMS community), aircrew will continue to have little respect for movers, so don't be surprised when the banter / dislike / etc comes straight back at you.
It is exceptionally aggrieving to have to put up with attitudes like this. I am not saying that aircrew are all gods and shouldn't have to take such 'disrespect' from mere mortals- not at all. It is just another 'push' factor on top of all the other sh1te that comes our way after having trained and worked long and hard, to be so undervalued by those who are supposedly on the same team as you. As I've already mentioned, aircrew skills are worth alot more in civvy street, and I imagine an awful lot of us will be taking those skills there soon.
I have tried many times to be friendly and 'inclusive' with mobile teams downroute, only to be met with arrogance and disdain (initiated by them) - it seems to be endemic in the MAMS world. I WANT the movers to come downtown with the rest of my crew - almost always, they won't.
Whilst it is true that the task would never get off the ground without someone to load the aircraft, co-ordinate requests for AT, build pallets, etc, without aircrew there would be no task at all.
Don't start none, won't be none, as a wise philosopher once said.
I offer an apology if I offended you, as reading back, some of my posts were a little over-vitriolic.
16B
MM, it's not so much WHAT movers do but the WAY they do it that annoys aircrew. As long as the movements world indoctrinates its exponents with the "Aircrew are just bus drivers - we're the REAL sharp end" attitude (and that attitude as rife among the MAMS community), aircrew will continue to have little respect for movers, so don't be surprised when the banter / dislike / etc comes straight back at you.
It is exceptionally aggrieving to have to put up with attitudes like this. I am not saying that aircrew are all gods and shouldn't have to take such 'disrespect' from mere mortals- not at all. It is just another 'push' factor on top of all the other sh1te that comes our way after having trained and worked long and hard, to be so undervalued by those who are supposedly on the same team as you. As I've already mentioned, aircrew skills are worth alot more in civvy street, and I imagine an awful lot of us will be taking those skills there soon.
I have tried many times to be friendly and 'inclusive' with mobile teams downroute, only to be met with arrogance and disdain (initiated by them) - it seems to be endemic in the MAMS world. I WANT the movers to come downtown with the rest of my crew - almost always, they won't.
Whilst it is true that the task would never get off the ground without someone to load the aircraft, co-ordinate requests for AT, build pallets, etc, without aircrew there would be no task at all.
Don't start none, won't be none, as a wise philosopher once said.
I offer an apology if I offended you, as reading back, some of my posts were a little over-vitriolic.
16B
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Sorry have to interupt.
In my experience as a techie I am normally at the lap of the Gods with respect to Aircrew and Movers.
However I have to say that it is my opinon that when the chips are down, the movers come out on top.
Over the years I have seen the world and been on many Tonka trails. Trail Transport crew are quite good but you have to get to know them first and this might mean a trip half way round the world before they actually talk to you. When you do get to know them they are brilliant and the team clicks.
On the other hand Movers tend to have a cup of tea waiting for you when you get there. They work their nuts off (quite often Flt Sgts, abandoned on their own) and they will help you until the task is complete - instead of poking off to the nearest Holiday Inn. (Ground Eng's excluded from this list)
Just my experience of life down route.
In my experience as a techie I am normally at the lap of the Gods with respect to Aircrew and Movers.
However I have to say that it is my opinon that when the chips are down, the movers come out on top.
Over the years I have seen the world and been on many Tonka trails. Trail Transport crew are quite good but you have to get to know them first and this might mean a trip half way round the world before they actually talk to you. When you do get to know them they are brilliant and the team clicks.
On the other hand Movers tend to have a cup of tea waiting for you when you get there. They work their nuts off (quite often Flt Sgts, abandoned on their own) and they will help you until the task is complete - instead of poking off to the nearest Holiday Inn. (Ground Eng's excluded from this list)
Just my experience of life down route.
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3 x Greens,
I quite agree that Mr C is entitled to his opinion on this matter as much as anyone else, as am I.
As has been mentioned before on this thread "Supposed FJ Mates" also use AT from time to time, and have many friends who are ME. Just because I'm not flying Hercs at the minute doesn't mean I don't come across Movers on a fairly regular basis. Your put down of
" Haven't seen any Movers on this thread complaining about receiving crew pay, only you aircrew gits seem to have an issue with it."
Doesn't hold all that much water when you read the original post of a "resently qualifyed mover" complaining that he was delighted to find
"lower rate of flying pay on our pay statements. Who swaid that we don't qualify as aircrew??"
As an Ex Techie, I've had plenty of experience with Movers throughout my career, and as many people on this forum have mentioned, find SOME of them a little too opinionated for their own good. That is not to say that they are all ar$eholes, but a few too many of them think theirselves indispensible, and a bit "Too cool for school" I'm sorry if I've spoken the "Unspeakable truth" but hey ho, I'm entitled to my opinion aren't I?
Hat on!!
I quite agree that Mr C is entitled to his opinion on this matter as much as anyone else, as am I.
As has been mentioned before on this thread "Supposed FJ Mates" also use AT from time to time, and have many friends who are ME. Just because I'm not flying Hercs at the minute doesn't mean I don't come across Movers on a fairly regular basis. Your put down of
" Haven't seen any Movers on this thread complaining about receiving crew pay, only you aircrew gits seem to have an issue with it."
Doesn't hold all that much water when you read the original post of a "resently qualifyed mover" complaining that he was delighted to find
"lower rate of flying pay on our pay statements. Who swaid that we don't qualify as aircrew??"
As an Ex Techie, I've had plenty of experience with Movers throughout my career, and as many people on this forum have mentioned, find SOME of them a little too opinionated for their own good. That is not to say that they are all ar$eholes, but a few too many of them think theirselves indispensible, and a bit "Too cool for school" I'm sorry if I've spoken the "Unspeakable truth" but hey ho, I'm entitled to my opinion aren't I?
Hat on!!
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So, police dogs do actually fly on occasion. Does that mean they should also be granted flying pay?
I might add, a German Shepard has never 'lost my kit, removed my baggage or generally looked like a link to pre history'.
If MAMS get their wish, is this the route towards total Americanisation? In that everyone who has any vague connection to an aeroplane gets a set of plastic wing like accoutrements on their chest?
I suppose it does make them feel like 'winners' too.
One may point you towards Ebay, I'm sure they have a section were you can purchase a life for just above reserve.
I might add, a German Shepard has never 'lost my kit, removed my baggage or generally looked like a link to pre history'.
If MAMS get their wish, is this the route towards total Americanisation? In that everyone who has any vague connection to an aeroplane gets a set of plastic wing like accoutrements on their chest?
I suppose it does make them feel like 'winners' too.
One may point you towards Ebay, I'm sure they have a section were you can purchase a life for just above reserve.
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I hope you squadies don't mind if I quickly add an independent view.
I don't usually enter the military section as I have never been in the service, I have however been in civil aviation for many years now, and found this debate particularly interesting.
Working in the management team of perhaps the biggest aviation related PLC in the UK, I have come across a number of staff who were once MAMS personnel, none of them hold positions in either the baggage departments or passenger check in areas, but work in dispatch,operations,training and security some at senior levels. The ones I have met personally seem professional, highly motivated, well trained and fun this can also be said for the ex Air Force crew I have seen. Having read some of the comments on here it is no surprise these people have left the service, and moved to highly paid role's in which they are appreciated.
I don't usually enter the military section as I have never been in the service, I have however been in civil aviation for many years now, and found this debate particularly interesting.
Working in the management team of perhaps the biggest aviation related PLC in the UK, I have come across a number of staff who were once MAMS personnel, none of them hold positions in either the baggage departments or passenger check in areas, but work in dispatch,operations,training and security some at senior levels. The ones I have met personally seem professional, highly motivated, well trained and fun this can also be said for the ex Air Force crew I have seen. Having read some of the comments on here it is no surprise these people have left the service, and moved to highly paid role's in which they are appreciated.
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Hmmmm...............Gone quiet all of a sudden. Looks like the smart asses have no clever response to a totally unbiased post.
Eagle 270.
Actually it's a German Shepherd. At least you didn't use the term Alsation which would have been very non PC.
" If MAMS get their wish, is this the route towards total Americanisation?
Lost me there old son. Please elucidate, ie explain WTF you are on about.
Regards to all,
E5
Eagle 270.
Actually it's a German Shepherd. At least you didn't use the term Alsation which would have been very non PC.
" If MAMS get their wish, is this the route towards total Americanisation?
Lost me there old son. Please elucidate, ie explain WTF you are on about.
Regards to all,
E5
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In my limited experiance when carrying police dogs you always carry an experianced handler with dog in a secure kennel............but I have never worked out why we lock up the real detective whilst leaving "clueless" to roam free..........keep collecting those "gerbers" boys
all spelling mistakes are"df"alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are"df"alcohol induced