Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
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Hmm, are the Daily Mail and the Telegraph the only papers made availale to those in the RAF? Will I leave it a bitter old reactionary if I join?
Its evident that this goverment is spending more (yes even in 'real terms') on defence, however a lot of money is tied down in buying you all expensive new bits of hardware and operation Telic is hitting the coffers hard.
If concern over defence spending will be your primary criteria on choosing who to vote for then I am afraid you will have the vote for Tony Blair (or Gordon Brown after two years), you know the antichrist who is planning to sell your children as slaves to Romanian gypsy immigrants ETC ETC. Both the Tories and the Lib Dems are committed to cutting the defence budget.
Its evident that this goverment is spending more (yes even in 'real terms') on defence, however a lot of money is tied down in buying you all expensive new bits of hardware and operation Telic is hitting the coffers hard.
If concern over defence spending will be your primary criteria on choosing who to vote for then I am afraid you will have the vote for Tony Blair (or Gordon Brown after two years), you know the antichrist who is planning to sell your children as slaves to Romanian gypsy immigrants ETC ETC. Both the Tories and the Lib Dems are committed to cutting the defence budget.
Rollerskate,
......"Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending"..........
NO HE ISN'T! Get your facts straight man!
Jeez this place is becoming rather like the Daily Mail or Telegraph chat rooms!
When I was in Aunty Betty's flying club we had a good range of political opinion in the crew room, and that was in an era when we had REAL defence cuts and were in the height of the Cold War!
B(I)8,
How?
......"Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending"..........
NO HE ISN'T! Get your facts straight man!
Jeez this place is becoming rather like the Daily Mail or Telegraph chat rooms!
When I was in Aunty Betty's flying club we had a good range of political opinion in the crew room, and that was in an era when we had REAL defence cuts and were in the height of the Cold War!
B(I)8,
How?
Refence the 'defence cuts' everybody is talking about, my understanding of the situation is as follows:
The defence budget is actually going up, slightly! However, the defence budget, rather than contingency reserves, is paying for currrent day to day operations in Iraq (I believe Gordon Brown did use some reserve money when the so called 'shooting war' was going on - but we are into 'peacekeeping' now!). This, coupled with cost over runs in procurement projects, has required the defence budget to be 'reorganised' (i.e money needs to be saved elsewhere). The only real option to save money is to get rid of some people and hardware (e.g the Red Arrows - if that rumour is actually true!!)
Thus the defence budget is 'suffering' as a result of operations in Iraq.
Now if I have got it wrong I am more than willing to be corrected by somebody out there with more accurate facts!
The defence budget is actually going up, slightly! However, the defence budget, rather than contingency reserves, is paying for currrent day to day operations in Iraq (I believe Gordon Brown did use some reserve money when the so called 'shooting war' was going on - but we are into 'peacekeeping' now!). This, coupled with cost over runs in procurement projects, has required the defence budget to be 'reorganised' (i.e money needs to be saved elsewhere). The only real option to save money is to get rid of some people and hardware (e.g the Red Arrows - if that rumour is actually true!!)
Thus the defence budget is 'suffering' as a result of operations in Iraq.
Now if I have got it wrong I am more than willing to be corrected by somebody out there with more accurate facts!
Daily Chipwrapper - 29 June 2004
BLAIR'S WAR CLIPS ARROWS' WINGS
Blair's invasion of Iraq has claimed yet more victims. The cost of his adventurism clinging to Bush's coat tails in Iraq has hit our forces hard. Bad enough that, thanks to underspending, they went in without enough equipment, but now the true cost is beginning to hit home.
Gordon Brown has refused to pay up for Blair's war - which was supported by virtully no-one outside his inner circle of cronies - and the defence budget has had to bear the brunt. Top brass told Hoon how much the war would cost, but they were told to send the troops in without knowing how the bills were going to be paid.
So now the defence budget is having to pay for a war for which no funds had been allocated. The result? Cut, cut, cut. Not only are huge cuts in men, machines and capabilities being forced through by the Labour government, but even the pride of the RAF is to go. Born years ago after the cost of Fighter Command aerobatic teams became too high, the Central Flying Schools' famous display team, the Red`Arrows has become the latest victim of Blair's war. The 'Reds' have thrilled the pubic for nearly 40 years and are acknowledged as the world's best. Yet this once proud nation can no longer afford them due to the cost of Blair playing world policeman in the shadow of George Bush.
Enough is enough. This time Blair must be told to think again. The Chipwrapper's campaign starts today and it's your chance to tell Blair how you feel. Join our campaign by displaying your free HANDS OFF THE REDS! sticker and show your support for our world famous RAF Aerobatic Team.
If only.......
BLAIR'S WAR CLIPS ARROWS' WINGS
Blair's invasion of Iraq has claimed yet more victims. The cost of his adventurism clinging to Bush's coat tails in Iraq has hit our forces hard. Bad enough that, thanks to underspending, they went in without enough equipment, but now the true cost is beginning to hit home.
Gordon Brown has refused to pay up for Blair's war - which was supported by virtully no-one outside his inner circle of cronies - and the defence budget has had to bear the brunt. Top brass told Hoon how much the war would cost, but they were told to send the troops in without knowing how the bills were going to be paid.
So now the defence budget is having to pay for a war for which no funds had been allocated. The result? Cut, cut, cut. Not only are huge cuts in men, machines and capabilities being forced through by the Labour government, but even the pride of the RAF is to go. Born years ago after the cost of Fighter Command aerobatic teams became too high, the Central Flying Schools' famous display team, the Red`Arrows has become the latest victim of Blair's war. The 'Reds' have thrilled the pubic for nearly 40 years and are acknowledged as the world's best. Yet this once proud nation can no longer afford them due to the cost of Blair playing world policeman in the shadow of George Bush.
Enough is enough. This time Blair must be told to think again. The Chipwrapper's campaign starts today and it's your chance to tell Blair how you feel. Join our campaign by displaying your free HANDS OFF THE REDS! sticker and show your support for our world famous RAF Aerobatic Team.
If only.......
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I'm sorry, but if the Reds are the best then it is about time to pack up and go home. Their routine is tired, slow and very boring. If you wanted to see some professional display flying at Waddington then it was ably provided by the Italian Frecce Tricolori and the Spanish Patrulla Aquilla, who really showed us how jets could and should be displayed (and who got less yellow cards than the Reds). Keep the Reds if you want, but please get them to buck up - they are a terribly poor advert for the RAF.
B(I)8,
Said;
...."they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?"......
Yes, but they provide this for a display team, the public perception of the RAF is more akin to a reaction to Stormshadow strikes on Iraq and bombing the place for ten years.
If some poor sod is inspired to join the RAF as groundcrew based on what he/she sees of the Arrows then they wil have a real shock just after passing out of Cosford!
Said;
...."they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?"......
Yes, but they provide this for a display team, the public perception of the RAF is more akin to a reaction to Stormshadow strikes on Iraq and bombing the place for ten years.
If some poor sod is inspired to join the RAF as groundcrew based on what he/she sees of the Arrows then they wil have a real shock just after passing out of Cosford!
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"Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?" You might as well say the same about any regimental band. In their case they become stretcher bearers etc. In the Red Arrows case they are more than competent flyers so of course they won't be in a red jet, but something that kills!
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pr00ne
But don't the g/c and pilots percolate throughout the mob taking their skills with them? Surely this can only have a positive effect on the "non-display" side. Centuries ago when I was "in" it was thought to be a Good Thing (tm) to have an ex-Red g/c or pilot on the sqd as, generally they were considered tidy and diligent workers. But maybe that's all changed these days.
Public perception of the RAF is still, and always has been, that we drop bombs, kill people and break their stuff. That and the "Spitfire" and handlebar moustaches.
As for "some poor sod" being in for a shock after leaving training . . .well, it has always be thus, and you know it.
But strangely people still do elect to join because of what they see of the RAF. They all seem to want to be pilots of course, but still readily accept entry to the ground trades (or become navs!) Unfortunately, in the current politically correct climate, the discipline, skills, self-reliance and general attitude imbuded in service personnel are actively frowned upon - and easily denigrated.
So, the Reds do a good job and are probably the only worthwhile PR the UK has! Or do you think the likes of Beckham and the football crowd do it better?
But don't the g/c and pilots percolate throughout the mob taking their skills with them? Surely this can only have a positive effect on the "non-display" side. Centuries ago when I was "in" it was thought to be a Good Thing (tm) to have an ex-Red g/c or pilot on the sqd as, generally they were considered tidy and diligent workers. But maybe that's all changed these days.
Public perception of the RAF is still, and always has been, that we drop bombs, kill people and break their stuff. That and the "Spitfire" and handlebar moustaches.
As for "some poor sod" being in for a shock after leaving training . . .well, it has always be thus, and you know it.
But strangely people still do elect to join because of what they see of the RAF. They all seem to want to be pilots of course, but still readily accept entry to the ground trades (or become navs!) Unfortunately, in the current politically correct climate, the discipline, skills, self-reliance and general attitude imbuded in service personnel are actively frowned upon - and easily denigrated.
So, the Reds do a good job and are probably the only worthwhile PR the UK has! Or do you think the likes of Beckham and the football crowd do it better?
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PrOOne
I should not have said defence cuts as none us really know what is happening and I agree the other parties are no better.
The facts are that Britain now has many conmitments around the world i.e. Iraq, Afganistan, the Balkans etc. and none of the parties are willing to provide the resources for these ops.
To transport these the servicemen and equipment you need ships, aircraft and helicopters which are needed now not in the
near future.
Just because things were bad in the past it doesn't mean they have to be bad now.
Long term investment in new equipment can actually save money with modern equipment been more efficient, more reliable and needing fewer people to service and operate it providing we actually buy the right equipment.
Anyway keep the Red Arrows because any PR for the military and the UK has got to be a good thing.
I should not have said defence cuts as none us really know what is happening and I agree the other parties are no better.
The facts are that Britain now has many conmitments around the world i.e. Iraq, Afganistan, the Balkans etc. and none of the parties are willing to provide the resources for these ops.
To transport these the servicemen and equipment you need ships, aircraft and helicopters which are needed now not in the
near future.
Just because things were bad in the past it doesn't mean they have to be bad now.
Long term investment in new equipment can actually save money with modern equipment been more efficient, more reliable and needing fewer people to service and operate it providing we actually buy the right equipment.
Anyway keep the Red Arrows because any PR for the military and the UK has got to be a good thing.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Breakscrew makes a very good point. The problem with the arrows is not so much the display routine, but the yawn yawn Hawks. Lets have a display team drawn from front line Typhoon squadrons (assuming we still own them) . Nice big FJs that make lots of noise and actually excites the crowd.
Problem with that has always been the cost (financial and readiness: the last Lightning team (Firebirds, IIRC) gave way to the Yellowjacks/Reds because as well as the cost of using a Mach 2 fighter for aero displays, 56 Sqn had to devote an awful lot of time for training for the displays.
By all accounts (although I don't knwo how accurate they are) the then AOC-in-C Fighter Command was fairly firm in expressing the view that his squadrons should be ready to defend UK airspace rather than thrilling crowds.
While equpping the Reds with Typhoons would overcome the issue of taking a squadron (or part thereof) out of the front line, the cost would probably be too great (unless Eurofighter GBmH could be persuaded to assist with some of the costs out of their advertising budget!). Also, I assume that there would be issues about converting onto type for those who'd never flown Typhoon before - whereas they've all flown Hawk at some point?
By all accounts (although I don't knwo how accurate they are) the then AOC-in-C Fighter Command was fairly firm in expressing the view that his squadrons should be ready to defend UK airspace rather than thrilling crowds.
While equpping the Reds with Typhoons would overcome the issue of taking a squadron (or part thereof) out of the front line, the cost would probably be too great (unless Eurofighter GBmH could be persuaded to assist with some of the costs out of their advertising budget!). Also, I assume that there would be issues about converting onto type for those who'd never flown Typhoon before - whereas they've all flown Hawk at some point?
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Good article in the Telegraph today about the breakdown in trust between the government and the armed forces. I wouldn't trust the s#!ts as far as I could throw them! As to increases in defence spending claimed by Pr00ne, that may well prove to be tosh! We need to see if the comprehensive spending review puts some sums to the very vague White Paper. I reckon that MoD are pulling the normal government trick and counting money twice. I've seen my budget slashed as costs for T&S increase because of a lack of service accommodation at most units and that is just one first-hand experience of a lack of dosh! Also, why should the defence budget suffer over the Iraq war? This was apparently a national undertaking as a result of a threat to UK interests, if not safety and security, so the benefits of improved security should be paid for by all. More to do with trying to avoid the political cost of a tax rise for an unpopular war, the controversy over which will reignite when the Butler report is published which is apparently investigating press releases sent to regional newspapers with "45 mins" highlighted in yellow highlighter pen. So much for no spin. I feel as if the armed forces have been greatly damaged by association with this venture and are now being reamed to pay for it.
Sorry for this rant that is a bit off-thread.
Sorry for this rant that is a bit off-thread.
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Your all missing the point chaps! If Red 1 was captured in Iraq the boys in balaclavas would still chop his head off! What are our armed forces for? Yes the Reds are great, professional, among the best in the world blah blah, but we once had an empire, we once had lots of things and when the cash is tight they are becoming a luxury we cannot afford. Then again maybe they could nip out to Fallujah and win hearts and minds with a few diamond nines and synchro pair routines!! Mind you where would they live - i guess they would have to stay in Bahrain cos the hotels in Iraq wouldn't be good enough!
I'm sure they represent everything that's good about the UK - white, male mainly heterosexual (although the ones i've met make that debateable!), not disabled (well physically anyway) and tory voters!!! Hoorah!
Trust my comments will be taken by you all as they are intended!
I'm sure they represent everything that's good about the UK - white, male mainly heterosexual (although the ones i've met make that debateable!), not disabled (well physically anyway) and tory voters!!! Hoorah!
Trust my comments will be taken by you all as they are intended!
A thank you to the Reds on behalf of a friend who had a great day with them yesterday. True gents, as ever, great PR for the Service and they made a tremendously favourable impression on all with whom they came into contact.
Can't believe that those spineless beancounters who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing can dare to query their future
Can't believe that those spineless beancounters who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing can dare to query their future
Breakscrew,
You know the Red Arrows are the Red coloured jets, right? At Waddington I thought they were the very definition of professionalism. Granted, their display is similar from year-to-year, but the Frecce's display was very similar as well. The Reds stand out for keeping their formations much tighter and with less mistakes than the rest, but I think the most amazing thing is they way in which they regroup so smoothly after a split. You may have seen them countless times and therefore be bored of them / jealous, but credit where credits due?
The humble opinions of Ginge
You know the Red Arrows are the Red coloured jets, right? At Waddington I thought they were the very definition of professionalism. Granted, their display is similar from year-to-year, but the Frecce's display was very similar as well. The Reds stand out for keeping their formations much tighter and with less mistakes than the rest, but I think the most amazing thing is they way in which they regroup so smoothly after a split. You may have seen them countless times and therefore be bored of them / jealous, but credit where credits due?
The humble opinions of Ginge
Suspicion breeds confidence
So, according to the press, we'll lose the Nimrod, Harrier, Jaguar, some Tornados (F3?), Typhoons will be deferred.
Puma will go, Junglies will go. If the carriers are laid up the ASaC 7 will go.
That leaves us with little air defence, some strike and Bu%%er all else.
Things are never as good or as bad as they seem, so hopefully it may not be the doom and gloom scenario we expect. Usually in the these cutback's there's a sweetener somethere. Anyone care to strike a guess at what it is?
Puma will go, Junglies will go. If the carriers are laid up the ASaC 7 will go.
That leaves us with little air defence, some strike and Bu%%er all else.
Things are never as good or as bad as they seem, so hopefully it may not be the doom and gloom scenario we expect. Usually in the these cutback's there's a sweetener somethere. Anyone care to strike a guess at what it is?
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Gingerbread Man
Bored - yes; jealous -no. As a fare paying member of the public watching our national aerobatic team perform a staid and lacklustre routine was faintly embarassing. I simply enjoyed the Italian and Spanish teams at Waddo much more so. The Reds really need to think up something different and original after 40 years of the same changes of formation and smooth regroups. Mind you, if they are simply reflecting the organisation they represent, then you could congratulate them on doing it so well.
Bored - yes; jealous -no. As a fare paying member of the public watching our national aerobatic team perform a staid and lacklustre routine was faintly embarassing. I simply enjoyed the Italian and Spanish teams at Waddo much more so. The Reds really need to think up something different and original after 40 years of the same changes of formation and smooth regroups. Mind you, if they are simply reflecting the organisation they represent, then you could congratulate them on doing it so well.
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SAFE SHOW
You seem to confuse a boring display with an unsafe display.
Although the Red's have had the odd miss hap over the years (e.g. Low flying over marina, contact with mast)
Overall they are the safest on the circuit!!!!.
They always pride themselves on their saftey record, which is more than be said for other national teams. (No names no pack drill).
I do believe that this government would try and disband the team in favour of more expensive trendy projects, that they seem to love wasting money on!!!!
Although the Red's have had the odd miss hap over the years (e.g. Low flying over marina, contact with mast)
Overall they are the safest on the circuit!!!!.
They always pride themselves on their saftey record, which is more than be said for other national teams. (No names no pack drill).
I do believe that this government would try and disband the team in favour of more expensive trendy projects, that they seem to love wasting money on!!!!