Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
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Having attended the Waddington bash, I must agree wholeheartedly with break and soddim.
Are the Reds the central point to the UK airshow scene?
If they disappeared, would the airshow scene evaporate? One thinks not. Although, they may have a differing opinion.
Maybe the Reds could ask the Frecce or Patrulla Aguila for some tips on how to make an interesting and varied display?
They could compare yellow cards too.
Although under no circumstances were the Reds in the wrong. To criticise the Reds is to almost suggest that Aunty Betty is a fallen lady and gains her income from the steps of Kings Cross.
On another note. With regards to Waddo 2003, I must say that I am glad that some have heeded the points brought out from this time last year. The standard of turn out from Royal Air Force members was much better. Well done!! It doesn’t cost anything to have pride in ones self and ones uniform.
Are the Reds the central point to the UK airshow scene?
If they disappeared, would the airshow scene evaporate? One thinks not. Although, they may have a differing opinion.
Maybe the Reds could ask the Frecce or Patrulla Aguila for some tips on how to make an interesting and varied display?
They could compare yellow cards too.
Although under no circumstances were the Reds in the wrong. To criticise the Reds is to almost suggest that Aunty Betty is a fallen lady and gains her income from the steps of Kings Cross.On another note. With regards to Waddo 2003, I must say that I am glad that some have heeded the points brought out from this time last year. The standard of turn out from Royal Air Force members was much better. Well done!! It doesn’t cost anything to have pride in ones self and ones uniform.
They've been stooging round the world doing pretty much the same thing for years, they should stop poncing around in too tight suits and get back to doing what my tax money trained them to do.
I'd hate to agree with Blair, Hoon or an accountant but they're a waste of rations and red nomex.
I'd hate to agree with Blair, Hoon or an accountant but they're a waste of rations and red nomex.
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The RAAF Roulettes are all part timers, full time employment as QFIs at CFS. So, they're not as polished as full time teams like the Red Arrows.
If you had to choose between no team and a part time team, surely the part time option is better. Part timers would be unlikely to achieve the consistent excellence that a full time team will produce. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't fly as well as the Roulettes if I had 10 years intensive coaching, but it's analogous to any pursuit where excellence is sought.
The other thing is that the Hawks make a far more impressive impact than do PC-9s (or Tucanos or other props). It isn't about impressing trained pilots, it's about impressing mug punters. The mug punters on the ground OOhh and Aahh much more when jets are flying. The Roulettes gave up their MB326s in favour of PC-9s about 14 years ago (?) and crowd interest dipped appreciably. Over Sydney Harbour in January 1996 the Red Arrows' Hawks were much more exciting than the Roulettes' PC-9s.
Let's hope it doesn't get to that, but Sky news reported the same story this morning. Also several warships to go and another 4 battalians to be chopped.
Cheers
If you had to choose between no team and a part time team, surely the part time option is better. Part timers would be unlikely to achieve the consistent excellence that a full time team will produce. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't fly as well as the Roulettes if I had 10 years intensive coaching, but it's analogous to any pursuit where excellence is sought.
The other thing is that the Hawks make a far more impressive impact than do PC-9s (or Tucanos or other props). It isn't about impressing trained pilots, it's about impressing mug punters. The mug punters on the ground OOhh and Aahh much more when jets are flying. The Roulettes gave up their MB326s in favour of PC-9s about 14 years ago (?) and crowd interest dipped appreciably. Over Sydney Harbour in January 1996 the Red Arrows' Hawks were much more exciting than the Roulettes' PC-9s.
Let's hope it doesn't get to that, but Sky news reported the same story this morning. Also several warships to go and another 4 battalians to be chopped.
Cheers
Sorry, mate, but take it from me: there is no basis in fact in the story. It was taken from an RAF News article on the Reds and twisted out of all recognition. If people wish to believe rubbish like the Mail or Express, that's up to them.
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Given the choice between the "Reds" and a couple of ships/batallions then the Reds should go. However, before we go that far the lords and masters in MOD should pay some serious attention to the gross overmanning in the RAF.
The work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull and do the junior service no credit whatsoever. When the RAF becomes a 'can do' organisation, the great british electorate wil start to get value for money. As things stand, the RAF do not give reasonable return on investment but bleed the defence budget at the expense of other branches.
So, Tony (much as I disagree with your line on Iraq) dont stop at the Reds but bin the bl..dy lot.
The work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull and do the junior service no credit whatsoever. When the RAF becomes a 'can do' organisation, the great british electorate wil start to get value for money. As things stand, the RAF do not give reasonable return on investment but bleed the defence budget at the expense of other branches.
So, Tony (much as I disagree with your line on Iraq) dont stop at the Reds but bin the bl..dy lot.
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DWARF BULKHEAD,
You throw out some wild criticism of the RAF in your post with absolutely no attempt to justify your remarks.
I am at a loss to work out how the RAF could possibly "give reasonable return on investment" or is there a modern way of counting returns by the flying hour or number of practise bombs on target? I have always thought that all money spent on defence was a dead loss unless there was a need to use the forces and then the only calculation that mattered was winning. I believe the RAF has been on the winning side for some time now so they must be giving a "reasonable return".
You also level the accusation that "work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull" but how did you measure these and against what yardstick?
Please enlighten ppruners further or your assertions will be dismissed for lack of evidence.
You throw out some wild criticism of the RAF in your post with absolutely no attempt to justify your remarks.
I am at a loss to work out how the RAF could possibly "give reasonable return on investment" or is there a modern way of counting returns by the flying hour or number of practise bombs on target? I have always thought that all money spent on defence was a dead loss unless there was a need to use the forces and then the only calculation that mattered was winning. I believe the RAF has been on the winning side for some time now so they must be giving a "reasonable return".
You also level the accusation that "work routines and productivity at all levels of the service are dreadfull" but how did you measure these and against what yardstick?
Please enlighten ppruners further or your assertions will be dismissed for lack of evidence.
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For the wrinklies who contribute to this forum the Red Arrows display maybe maybe boring but to young children at their first airshow it is still awesome.
For a country that is going downhill fast why shouldn't we have the Red Arrows who show off one of the things we are good at?
For saving money shouldn't we look at the £210.000 it costs us for every MP - the only job where you are assessed only every four or five years and decide among yourselves how much you want to be paid, the £400 000 000 a year we allegedly spend on immigrates who are HIV positive per annum-would any other country allow this to happen?and the Scottish parliament building which is £350 000 000 over budget - the lunatics really are running the asylum!
For a country that is going downhill fast why shouldn't we have the Red Arrows who show off one of the things we are good at?
For saving money shouldn't we look at the £210.000 it costs us for every MP - the only job where you are assessed only every four or five years and decide among yourselves how much you want to be paid, the £400 000 000 a year we allegedly spend on immigrates who are HIV positive per annum-would any other country allow this to happen?and the Scottish parliament building which is £350 000 000 over budget - the lunatics really are running the asylum!
Last edited by capt.sparrow; 28th Jun 2004 at 19:56.
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How much did the "gay lesbian work life balance" event cost MoD??
How much do Focus and the other Pravda-style freesheets cost?
Etc....
I'll be glad to get out of this Service, each day there is something that grates even more. We are not about doing a job anymore, rather about creating a PR image to bolster egocentric politicians at a minimum of cost to the taxpayer regardless of the burden placed on individual servicemen and women. The burden will rise and we will be expected to grin even more as part of the "corporate comms" PR machine with no means of complaint when the screw continues to turn.
We're getting to be like every other failing public service that has been "reformed" and the major difference is there is no-one to fight our corner!
How much do Focus and the other Pravda-style freesheets cost?
Etc....
I'll be glad to get out of this Service, each day there is something that grates even more. We are not about doing a job anymore, rather about creating a PR image to bolster egocentric politicians at a minimum of cost to the taxpayer regardless of the burden placed on individual servicemen and women. The burden will rise and we will be expected to grin even more as part of the "corporate comms" PR machine with no means of complaint when the screw continues to turn.
We're getting to be like every other failing public service that has been "reformed" and the major difference is there is no-one to fight our corner!
Peeking Duck,
..."In the light of recent defence cuts I tend to agree!"......
What Defence Cuts?
...."I cannot imagine France or Italy or the good ol' US of A doing the same. But then again the UK is now on such a spiral of decline that I think it is probably enevitble that this defence cut would probably happen. God forbid!"........................................
Yep, the world's 4th largest economy with the lowest unemployment in Europe, the healthiest set of finances of all the G8 nations, the highest growth in the EU and more people employed in our economy than ever before, we're really in a spiral of decline!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people!
..."In the light of recent defence cuts I tend to agree!"......
What Defence Cuts?
...."I cannot imagine France or Italy or the good ol' US of A doing the same. But then again the UK is now on such a spiral of decline that I think it is probably enevitble that this defence cut would probably happen. God forbid!"........................................
Yep, the world's 4th largest economy with the lowest unemployment in Europe, the healthiest set of finances of all the G8 nations, the highest growth in the EU and more people employed in our economy than ever before, we're really in a spiral of decline!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some people!
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Capt Sparrow - I am a wrinkly. In fact I'm now quite saggy and dangly (even more so since last September). So I'm going to be unfashionable, show my age, and express my unwavering admiration for this enduring British icon.
Over the past 40 years or so the Red Arrows have demonstrated excellence, flown the flag worldwide, entertained, provided inspiration for millions and aspiration for many. They continue to do so when not a few of our once-revered institutions/values are going down the gurgler at an ever-increasing and saddening rate.
Those out there who believe that BAe rode/rides high on the back of the team, and think that a single Hawk was exported because of the Red Arrows are lacking brain cells. They might instead contemplate the benefit to 'UK Ltd' brought about by the many demanding overseas tours, of which BAe was just one proud sponsor, and be just a little proud of the reaction that always followed their foreign displays - most of which went un-noticed within the general public back here. And those who talk of prima-donnas (pilots or groundcrew) are either acutely aware of their own dearth of testosterones, just plain envious, or thick.
For those of you who are bored with the routine, my son-in-law and grandson recently saw them for the first time - awesome said the 11 year-old: his dad used an expletive. I'll also bet all our veterans watching the D-Day flypast over Arromanche on the 6th June felt a bit of the same. Bored? - then forget aviation, take up croquet (sorry to croquet lovers).
And as for the cost? A snip. A year's wages for Ericsson and four of his 'professionals'. I know, I know, that's not real public money - but it underlines the sadness associated with one of those institutions that I mentioned to begin with.
Far from going down the gurgler, our National Aerobatic Team will outlast all those good British things that are fast becoming memories.
Soap box back in shed
Over the past 40 years or so the Red Arrows have demonstrated excellence, flown the flag worldwide, entertained, provided inspiration for millions and aspiration for many. They continue to do so when not a few of our once-revered institutions/values are going down the gurgler at an ever-increasing and saddening rate.
Those out there who believe that BAe rode/rides high on the back of the team, and think that a single Hawk was exported because of the Red Arrows are lacking brain cells. They might instead contemplate the benefit to 'UK Ltd' brought about by the many demanding overseas tours, of which BAe was just one proud sponsor, and be just a little proud of the reaction that always followed their foreign displays - most of which went un-noticed within the general public back here. And those who talk of prima-donnas (pilots or groundcrew) are either acutely aware of their own dearth of testosterones, just plain envious, or thick.
For those of you who are bored with the routine, my son-in-law and grandson recently saw them for the first time - awesome said the 11 year-old: his dad used an expletive. I'll also bet all our veterans watching the D-Day flypast over Arromanche on the 6th June felt a bit of the same. Bored? - then forget aviation, take up croquet (sorry to croquet lovers).
And as for the cost? A snip. A year's wages for Ericsson and four of his 'professionals'. I know, I know, that's not real public money - but it underlines the sadness associated with one of those institutions that I mentioned to begin with.
Far from going down the gurgler, our National Aerobatic Team will outlast all those good British things that are fast becoming memories.
Soap box back in shed
Last edited by smartman; 28th Jun 2004 at 22:37.
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Yep, the world's 4th largest economy with the lowest unemployment in Europe, the healthiest set of finances of all the G8 nations, the highest growth in the EU and more people employed in our economy than ever before, we're really in a spiral of decline!
All for nought if we haven't the means to defend it.
All for nought if we haven't the means to defend it.
B(I)8,
Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?
Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?
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It's all about a fast buck
Been around a long time, same staid displays - okay maybe they could do with a bit more pizazz but tradition is what makes the military. Afterall, how many haven't wished that we could have some stability in our work rather than the constant change heaved upon us.
Unfortunately this government as rightly said know the cost of everything and the value of nothing and will stop at nothing to win political points and endeavour to be seen to be surving the publics interests whilst instead lining their own pockets. Blair will find some mechanism for spinning the cost of the Reds into better healthcare even if they are paid for by private companies investments.
Lets face it defence and protecting this country is way down his list of priorities. Afterall he's about to slash all three services after a galant demonstration of how we adapt, improvise and overcome with some of our less capable kit.
If you don't produce money like a fruit machine in return for the odd quid you're buggered and they won't take the blame - they'll hang some-else out to dry. A topical example is DVLA - they have a nationwide computer that not only knows you've not paid your road tax when queried by anyone, anywhere in the UK but will actually issue the penalty notice automatically. If that t@&t Blunkett invested in the police computer system maybe he wouldn't be demanding the resignation of a Police Chief. But then crime don't pay - not to the g'ment anyway.
So what money do the forces make - none. Time for a slash and burn policy then. Perhaps its time for a hostile takeover - to use words of the commercial sector maybe they'll understand.!!!
Unfortunately this government as rightly said know the cost of everything and the value of nothing and will stop at nothing to win political points and endeavour to be seen to be surving the publics interests whilst instead lining their own pockets. Blair will find some mechanism for spinning the cost of the Reds into better healthcare even if they are paid for by private companies investments.
Lets face it defence and protecting this country is way down his list of priorities. Afterall he's about to slash all three services after a galant demonstration of how we adapt, improvise and overcome with some of our less capable kit.
If you don't produce money like a fruit machine in return for the odd quid you're buggered and they won't take the blame - they'll hang some-else out to dry. A topical example is DVLA - they have a nationwide computer that not only knows you've not paid your road tax when queried by anyone, anywhere in the UK but will actually issue the penalty notice automatically. If that t@&t Blunkett invested in the police computer system maybe he wouldn't be demanding the resignation of a Police Chief. But then crime don't pay - not to the g'ment anyway.
So what money do the forces make - none. Time for a slash and burn policy then. Perhaps its time for a hostile takeover - to use words of the commercial sector maybe they'll understand.!!!
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we may have a strong economy and high employment but we have a government who are unprincipled, they do not care about the Red Arrows, defence, law and order etc. it is all lip service.
Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending, he wants to cut crime but the courts are ineffective and
so often the punishment doesn't fit the crime, school children are
unruly and teachers are scared to discipline them because of the consequences, doctors and nurses are regularly verbally and physically asaulted by drunken thugs every weekend because this people they are helping are scum who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves and WE are paying for this!
Thats why we are in a spiral of decline.
Having a strong economy doesn't necessarily make the country good, its about pride, being proud, pricinciples, fighting for the under dog, knowing what is right and wrong.
The Red Arrows and other militay display teams shows the world what we can achieve, its shows and tells them our servicemen and women are the best because if we don't believe it no body else will - without pride you are nothing.
The military have got to get in the PR business, they need to be seen in a positive way, most people who have no interest in aircraft will not go to an airshow to see a line up of drab looking aircraft, but they will go to see the Red Arrows, once you got them through the gate they can get to see what the forces are about, they may not join up but they can see the positive things the military do which may directly effect them i.e. SAR, mountain rescue, intercepting drug runners in the carribean, how the army are not just policing the worlds trouble spots but helping communities through building projects etc.
That why keeping the red Arrows and other teams is important
Persuade people that money spent on the military is a good thing
and maybe, just maybe things may change - unlikely but you never know? [/list]
Tony wants to play world policeman but is cutting defence spending, he wants to cut crime but the courts are ineffective and
so often the punishment doesn't fit the crime, school children are
unruly and teachers are scared to discipline them because of the consequences, doctors and nurses are regularly verbally and physically asaulted by drunken thugs every weekend because this people they are helping are scum who don't care about anyone or anything but themselves and WE are paying for this!
Thats why we are in a spiral of decline.
Having a strong economy doesn't necessarily make the country good, its about pride, being proud, pricinciples, fighting for the under dog, knowing what is right and wrong.
The Red Arrows and other militay display teams shows the world what we can achieve, its shows and tells them our servicemen and women are the best because if we don't believe it no body else will - without pride you are nothing.
The military have got to get in the PR business, they need to be seen in a positive way, most people who have no interest in aircraft will not go to an airshow to see a line up of drab looking aircraft, but they will go to see the Red Arrows, once you got them through the gate they can get to see what the forces are about, they may not join up but they can see the positive things the military do which may directly effect them i.e. SAR, mountain rescue, intercepting drug runners in the carribean, how the army are not just policing the worlds trouble spots but helping communities through building projects etc.
That why keeping the red Arrows and other teams is important
Persuade people that money spent on the military is a good thing
and maybe, just maybe things may change - unlikely but you never know? [/list]
Last edited by ROLLERSKATE; 28th Jun 2004 at 23:00.
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Good points, ROLLERSKATE. The Red Arrows show what can be achieved by hard work and discipline - qualities that are not high on our Nation's list of priorities.
I suspect that this government has little regard for such values - looking good in their eyes is much more important than being good.
Time to stick to traditional values and not be seduced by 'New Labour' or any other gimmicks.
I suspect that this government has little regard for such values - looking good in their eyes is much more important than being good.
Time to stick to traditional values and not be seduced by 'New Labour' or any other gimmicks.
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pr00ne
Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?
Oh I don't know, let's see . . . they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?
That, and instilling a sense of national pride in Joe Public.
Er, remind me again just how the Red Arrows defend us?
Oh I don't know, let's see . . . they help provide a source of professionally competent ground crews and pilots that are imbude with skills and flair tempered with discipline. Isn't that what the RAF is about?
That, and instilling a sense of national pride in Joe Public.