Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
Join Date: May 2004
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What a load of bol*loZks,semaphore and Nige.
The Arrows are a supreme example of what the services can offer,be it RAF,RN,Army,USN,USAF etc,its a great show,inspirational,and very slick.I joined,flew fast jets,QWI,but,ejected,now civvy,happy enough,no regrets,no axe to grind.
I was never a Red,but I would have loved to have had the chance,to see,hear,and inspire,new aviators,a small price,in a HUGE budget.
Madness,to stop it.Political correctness?
World famous,to stop it would be supreme folly,I dont think TB is quite that dim.
QB
The Arrows are a supreme example of what the services can offer,be it RAF,RN,Army,USN,USAF etc,its a great show,inspirational,and very slick.I joined,flew fast jets,QWI,but,ejected,now civvy,happy enough,no regrets,no axe to grind.
I was never a Red,but I would have loved to have had the chance,to see,hear,and inspire,new aviators,a small price,in a HUGE budget.
Madness,to stop it.Political correctness?
World famous,to stop it would be supreme folly,I dont think TB is quite that dim.
QB
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Sorry but old aircraft,similar year on year,id rather see my tax money being spent on something a bit more productive than a world tour of freebees to promote a decaying underfunded socalled airforce.
This is not a jibe at the RAF flying community but I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education,and if you want to see the display,buy the video.
Rgds K.I.L.
This is not a jibe at the RAF flying community but I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education,and if you want to see the display,buy the video.
Rgds K.I.L.
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Actually happened in Oz albeit a looong time ago. The RAAF formation team at the time (the "Telstars") were disbanded in April 1968.
The "Roulettes" were formed two years later and remain operational today.
The "Roulettes" were formed two years later and remain operational today.
We just returned last night from an interesting vacation in England, having noticed several signs to bases, such as RAF Fairford. Even went twice by the base near Stonehenge which is the Test Pilot School (?). Had about three old orange/red F-4s parked near the grass-covered bunkers. While driving from Sports Park (near Cotswolds) to Bath, saw 1011s at RAF ####.
Hope the Arrows survive in the long-term. It is so rewarding to drive again on the right side of the road
.
Hope the Arrows survive in the long-term.
It is so rewarding to drive again on the right side of the road .
Last edited by Ignition Override; 21st Jun 2004 at 03:34.
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Event organisers pay MOD for EVERY military aircraft that appears in their show, including statics. That also includes military shows. Wadington pays a fortune out of gate money for their aircraft, including THEIR OWN!!! [E3D & Nimrod R1].
That means a lot less money for military charities of course...
That means a lot less money for military charities of course...
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The point to consider, surely, is that today's RAF is frighteningly small in comparison to the task it has to support, in common with the Royal Navy and the army. To suggest that the Red Arrows is an operational unit in waiting is purest sophism so the essential question is - could an extra combat squadron be raised if the Arrows were disbanded? If the answer is yes, then they should go, much as it pains me to say it.
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In my years flying in the UK I have had two captains and one F/O in my crew, who had been Red Arrows. Contrary to what some seem to think, in every case, I had to prise this information out of them and never experienced any arrogance, self-aggrandisement or amused tolerance on their part. They were professionals to the core. One of them used to tell me that he could train anybody to be a Red Arrow, it was purely a matter of practice (I didn't believe him).
I generally have no time for the military, I have seen too many arrogant idiots who couldn't let go of their boyhood. They often tell you how good they are, but then can't explain why all their skill is being employed in flying a smallish turboprop, after many years in a company that flies mainly jets. Anyway, thought I would mention the contents of the first paragraph, to even the score slightly.
And to those who think this could be an election issue - dream on. 99% of the electorate couldn't care less. The only ones that will care are the RAF and the relatively tiny number of air show devotees. The idea that their demise could affect an election is a powerful demonstration of how far removed from reality some aviation enthusiasts really are.
It reminds me of the campaign to save the Vulcan.
I doubt that they are an effective recruiting tool.
They are, however, a symbol of excellence in a drab and dreary world, and, if for that reason only, should be retained.
I generally have no time for the military, I have seen too many arrogant idiots who couldn't let go of their boyhood. They often tell you how good they are, but then can't explain why all their skill is being employed in flying a smallish turboprop, after many years in a company that flies mainly jets. Anyway, thought I would mention the contents of the first paragraph, to even the score slightly.
And to those who think this could be an election issue - dream on. 99% of the electorate couldn't care less. The only ones that will care are the RAF and the relatively tiny number of air show devotees. The idea that their demise could affect an election is a powerful demonstration of how far removed from reality some aviation enthusiasts really are.
It reminds me of the campaign to save the Vulcan.
I doubt that they are an effective recruiting tool.
They are, however, a symbol of excellence in a drab and dreary world, and, if for that reason only, should be retained.
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I agree with a lot of the sentiments posted on this subject, from both sides of ther argument.
However, take a moment to consider.
1. Article appears suggesting abolishment of the Red Arrows.
2. More newspapers get the story - it becomes a headline.
3. Step forward Blair.
" There has never been any intention of abolishing the Red Arrows. This is precisely the sort of scaremongering dreamed up by tabloid editors in company with Michael Howard........."
3. Blair achieves a win/win, he points out the zero cost of the team against their huge contribution to overseas 'investment' in our country. He gets positive publicity and some brownie points from those who believe he has 'changed his mind' and even more brownie points from those who supported him anyway, but enjoyed airshowsand are now reassured that no money is being wasted which could otherwise be 'invested' in more bureaucracy forthe Public Services.
4. Now put this technique in the context of the European Constitution, one has to admire the b###ard. One can see how all the Franco/German/Brit squabbling is purely designed for soundbites on the news. They all look macho, they are all seen to be patriotic, they are all seen to have secured a good deal for their voters.....in fact the original confidential deal is the one that has happened, and they have all played their parts to perfection.
5. To conclude,
one can see how most pilots are generally far too honest and straightforward to succeed in management jobs. We tend to believe what people say, because we tell the factual truth most of our lives - the job demands it. We tend to believe what we read (well, mostly, lol 
) because most of our professional reading is factual and hard data copy. We always give management another chance - usually - even though we believe the bat will be shoved in further. When it comes to dealing with politicians, we are babes in arms.
I won't go on in depth, but for anyone really interested, take a look at the EASA web site, and read their intentions carefully. The proposed adjustments to the FTL scheme are the thinnest of thin edges of the wedge!
Oh - and watch for Blair's statement on the Arrows - you heard it here first!!
However, take a moment to consider.
1. Article appears suggesting abolishment of the Red Arrows.
2. More newspapers get the story - it becomes a headline.
3. Step forward Blair.
" There has never been any intention of abolishing the Red Arrows. This is precisely the sort of scaremongering dreamed up by tabloid editors in company with Michael Howard........."
3. Blair achieves a win/win, he points out the zero cost of the team against their huge contribution to overseas 'investment' in our country. He gets positive publicity and some brownie points from those who believe he has 'changed his mind' and even more brownie points from those who supported him anyway, but enjoyed airshowsand are now reassured that no money is being wasted which could otherwise be 'invested' in more bureaucracy forthe Public Services.
4. Now put this technique in the context of the European Constitution, one has to admire the b###ard. One can see how all the Franco/German/Brit squabbling is purely designed for soundbites on the news. They all look macho, they are all seen to be patriotic, they are all seen to have secured a good deal for their voters.....in fact the original confidential deal is the one that has happened, and they have all played their parts to perfection.
5. To conclude,
one can see how most pilots are generally far too honest and straightforward to succeed in management jobs. We tend to believe what people say, because we tell the factual truth most of our lives - the job demands it. We tend to believe what we read (well, mostly, lol ) because most of our professional reading is factual and hard data copy. We always give management another chance - usually - even though we believe the bat will be shoved in further. When it comes to dealing with politicians, we are babes in arms.I won't go on in depth, but for anyone really interested, take a look at the EASA web site, and read their intentions carefully. The proposed adjustments to the FTL scheme are the thinnest of thin edges of the wedge!
Oh - and watch for Blair's statement on the Arrows - you heard it here first!!
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Keepitlit
"I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education"
Surely you don't think the British companies that presently finance the Arrows' tours are going to divert their contributions to social needs? They support the Arrows because they are in business, no other reason. It is the taxes derived from increased business activity that pays for health and education.
"I think they have had their day,spend it on health or education"
Surely you don't think the British companies that presently finance the Arrows' tours are going to divert their contributions to social needs? They support the Arrows because they are in business, no other reason. It is the taxes derived from increased business activity that pays for health and education.
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We just returned last night from an interesting vacation in England, having noticed several signs to bases, such as RAF Fairford. Even went twice by the base near Stonehenge which is the Test Pilot School (?). Had about three old orange/red F-4s parked near the grass-covered bunkers. While driving from Sports Park (near Cotswolds) to Bath, saw 1011s at RAF ####.
I will obviously take flak for this, but all these flying groups are so much waste of resources. The RAF, USAF & USN are there to fight wars; military bands, groups such as Red Arrows, T'Birds, Blue Thingys, etc, take money needed to wage effective war, and put them into bread and circuses
Good chap.
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Unlike some of the contributors I have had some first hand experience of the Red Arrows starting back in 1970.
They were around the place when I was on the CFS course and I noticed then the somewhat arrogant and sneering attitude that many of the CFS staff had towards the team.
I then got to know another bunch when I was one of their support team for the odd trip around Europe when they used a C130 for the equipment and the ground crew.
Finally, I knew or flew with several ex-arrows in civilian aviation when we had both left the Services.
I found them to be a great bunch of blokes who were an unfailingly good source of PR for the Service and great company off duty. I have seen their kindness and patience to the public and the way in which they insisted on the groundcrew and support crew being included in any social events. None of them seemed to believe that they were God's gift to aviation and subsequently many proved to be mere mortals in other forms of flying.
They were however brilliant at putting the RAF into the face of Joe Public and I would be sad to see them closed down by a Government who specialise in making demands on the services that they then fail to back up with rescources.
They were around the place when I was on the CFS course and I noticed then the somewhat arrogant and sneering attitude that many of the CFS staff had towards the team.
I then got to know another bunch when I was one of their support team for the odd trip around Europe when they used a C130 for the equipment and the ground crew.
Finally, I knew or flew with several ex-arrows in civilian aviation when we had both left the Services.
I found them to be a great bunch of blokes who were an unfailingly good source of PR for the Service and great company off duty. I have seen their kindness and patience to the public and the way in which they insisted on the groundcrew and support crew being included in any social events. None of them seemed to believe that they were God's gift to aviation and subsequently many proved to be mere mortals in other forms of flying.
They were however brilliant at putting the RAF into the face of Joe Public and I would be sad to see them closed down by a Government who specialise in making demands on the services that they then fail to back up with rescources.
I predict that, if it becomes necessary to close the Arrows, there will be a howling jingo campaign by tabloids and spotters, and the axe will fall on something useful instead. As usual, we will choose flagwaving and symbols over concrete interest.
Letsby Av,
Hhmmmm................waste bullets or rope? Well, rope has to be cheaper so I'd opt for that, or we could keep them as a Royal Family, ruling by divine right and God's representatives on earth, and just not give them one single penny of public money.
..........RAF Boscombe Down? Don't think it's ever been that, MOD(PE) for ages and now Qinetiq, a commercial outfit. ETPS, BTW, are also a part of Qinetiq.
Hhmmmm................waste bullets or rope? Well, rope has to be cheaper so I'd opt for that, or we could keep them as a Royal Family, ruling by divine right and God's representatives on earth, and just not give them one single penny of public money.
..........RAF Boscombe Down? Don't think it's ever been that, MOD(PE) for ages and now Qinetiq, a commercial outfit. ETPS, BTW, are also a part of Qinetiq.