Red Arrows To Finish - Has Tony Gone Too Far?? (Merged x 2)
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The Red Arrows are certainly the public face of the RAF to the general public but just what value they bring I'm not sure I could say, as one of the public. I'm sure if the Red Arrows did get chopped then the tabloids would be full of stories about money being wasted on elementary Thai cooking lessons for single mothers or whatever the latest PC need for money is.
Just a thought, what would be the outcome if the Red Arrows annual budget got put into the BBMF pot instead?
Just a thought, what would be the outcome if the Red Arrows annual budget got put into the BBMF pot instead?
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Mad_Mark
Silly boy. When I posted, this thread was residing on Rumour and News. I don't read the military forums. I don't wear camo gear, ponce about in a surplus RAF flightsuit, or use ex-forces kit bags either.
Silly boy.
I find it strange then that you 'have time' to read a military forum
Silly boy.
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A couple of points:
I proposed some years ago (via the RAF News letters page) that the Reds ought to trade their Hawks for Tucanos. Ever seen what the Continentals can do with their PC-6/9 display teams? Nice. Turbo-props may please the bean counters, but would still show off piloting skills/RAF. Sure, BAe Systems would lose a marketing tool, but were contracts ever really decided by an air display? Back-handers more like!
Not realistic perhaps, if the Brits have to 'compete' with the other jet teams.
I don't think the spotter brigade (speaking as a lapsed spotter) would miss their demise - it's the family (including tax-paying Mum & Dad) on their day out who would be the poorer.
I proposed some years ago (via the RAF News letters page) that the Reds ought to trade their Hawks for Tucanos. Ever seen what the Continentals can do with their PC-6/9 display teams? Nice. Turbo-props may please the bean counters, but would still show off piloting skills/RAF. Sure, BAe Systems would lose a marketing tool, but were contracts ever really decided by an air display? Back-handers more like!
Not realistic perhaps, if the Brits have to 'compete' with the other jet teams.I don't think the spotter brigade (speaking as a lapsed spotter) would miss their demise - it's the family (including tax-paying Mum & Dad) on their day out who would be the poorer.
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oh, and don't forget to shoot all the horses - maybe you could get rid of the royal family as well ...... another few millions for more war!!!!
Keep the Horses,but get rid of the Royal family they are passed their sell by Date.
Keep the Horses,but get rid of the Royal family they are passed their sell by Date.
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Encouraging news tonight, in that a group of stalwarts in a Hertfordshire pub have got together to buy the Queen ( and Commonwealth) a new yacht. Maybe this is the future for the Arrows? Dig deep chaps and we could buy her a whole new Air Force - run on low-cost lines of course.
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I remember being doubtful about the value of the Reds and in the crowd at an airshow while they were performing yawning and waiting for something more nostalgic when most of the crowd broke out in spontaneous applause and one chap said "Makes me proud to be British". Doubt removed.
With the best will in the world, the Red Arrows have been flying the Hawk since the late seventies in pretty much the same colour scheme and there must be a limit to their shelflife. I know the spotters have long been bored with them but as previous respondents have noted, they are still popular with the public at large. Whether they provide a recruiting impetus is a moot point but they still enjoy a good public profile.
Mind you with T****r Blair in No 10 and Buffoon at MOD - all things military are vulnerable.
Perhaps, just perhaps, a new aircraft would help with a tighter display - as I remember from Valley, the Hawk needs about 5000ft for a loop ( it was a long time ago if that figure is b******s). Then again, what aircraft is available - needs to be jet for noise but I cannot really see a Eurofighter display team when they are already trying to sell aircraft that have not been delivered.
Then again - never believe what the Mail or Express say in the first place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mind you with T****r Blair in No 10 and Buffoon at MOD - all things military are vulnerable.
Perhaps, just perhaps, a new aircraft would help with a tighter display - as I remember from Valley, the Hawk needs about 5000ft for a loop ( it was a long time ago if that figure is b******s). Then again, what aircraft is available - needs to be jet for noise but I cannot really see a Eurofighter display team when they are already trying to sell aircraft that have not been delivered.
Then again - never believe what the Mail or Express say in the first place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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In my last 3 years in the RAF I often flew a squirrel in support of the reds. One of my last flights in the mob was a back seat in the synchro pair, organised as a thank you. (An AVM gave his seat up for me!!) Anyone who accuses the team of being arrogant and egotistical are talking bo***cks. There were nights when the team were exhausted and wanted to crash out and they were pestered for photos, autographs and 'interesting conversation' with members of the public. They NEVER let people down, even the weirdos. In a 3 year tour, they are always on duty with families and partners often taking second place. Instead of slagging dedicated professionals off, think before you post. They actually make YOU as part of the military, look better......
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I think the Express quoted savings of £40m if the Arrows were disbanded. We could, however, make some SERIOUS savings by, say, cancelling the Typhoon and buying F-18s off the shelf. Or stopping MEPs from claiming megabucks every time they can't be bothered to turn up at Strasbourg. Or not letting contracts (defence and others) on purely political grounds. Or keeping tighter control of costs of contracts, particularly if MoD is involved. Or designing the gun/aeroplane/boat properly in the first place. Or making Blair and co drive around in Astras rather than Jags. Or - how's this - not going to war when we shouldn't go to war. £40m?? Absolute peanuts in comparison.
Cool Mod
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LightTwinDriver.
I know of four ex Reds who are in the LHS. One is a former Group Captain. But then there is a growing number of C130 drivers in almost all of the airlines. Two ex Sea King drivers with MyTravel.
Might be a good thread this. Then again...................but what the heck!
Who was a Red and now with the airlines. Or RAF, Army or Navy.
Might be more than we imagine.
Oh! Just to stay on topic. It would be a terrible shame if we were no longer able to show of our homegrown premier aerobatic team. How many teams are 40 years old? There is only one Red Arrows and they should remain in the 'front line.'
Although not myself trained by the RAF I have grown to regard all ex RAF pilots as the best, both in my career (now retired) and on the display circuit. The Reds and the other teams encourage new blood to enter the services. If not the Reds how? Fly stickers on the Underground? On the buses and billboards. I don't think so!
I know of four ex Reds who are in the LHS. One is a former Group Captain. But then there is a growing number of C130 drivers in almost all of the airlines. Two ex Sea King drivers with MyTravel.
Might be a good thread this. Then again...................but what the heck!
Who was a Red and now with the airlines. Or RAF, Army or Navy.
Might be more than we imagine.
Oh! Just to stay on topic. It would be a terrible shame if we were no longer able to show of our homegrown premier aerobatic team. How many teams are 40 years old? There is only one Red Arrows and they should remain in the 'front line.'
Although not myself trained by the RAF I have grown to regard all ex RAF pilots as the best, both in my career (now retired) and on the display circuit. The Reds and the other teams encourage new blood to enter the services. If not the Reds how? Fly stickers on the Underground? On the buses and billboards. I don't think so!
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Sad as it may be, I think that the demise of the Reds is an inevitable function of an ever decreasing ( real terms ) defence budget.
Though in the big scheme of things it may be tiny, it still doesn't matter how much the Red Arrows actually cost, it's about presentation. There is no tangible or accountable benefit for the retention of the Reds no matter what our opinions or the effect they may have on morale/recruitment/public perception. It's extremely difficult to justify unnecessary expenditure to a largely hostile media and despite the huge waste that is abundant throughout public life, the Reds are out in the public eye and are therefore an easy target.
Right or wrong? My personal juries out, I love the show but wonder if the money may be better spent. On what I'm not sure!
The Reds? Some years they seem like a great set of guys and other years not. Sadly, like most Sqns there are R Solls everywhere and the individual pratt can give a bad impression of the team. Mind you, anybody who introduces themselves in happy hour as 'Hi, I'm Red #' deserves every bit of banter he gets!
Though in the big scheme of things it may be tiny, it still doesn't matter how much the Red Arrows actually cost, it's about presentation. There is no tangible or accountable benefit for the retention of the Reds no matter what our opinions or the effect they may have on morale/recruitment/public perception. It's extremely difficult to justify unnecessary expenditure to a largely hostile media and despite the huge waste that is abundant throughout public life, the Reds are out in the public eye and are therefore an easy target.
Right or wrong? My personal juries out, I love the show but wonder if the money may be better spent. On what I'm not sure!
The Reds? Some years they seem like a great set of guys and other years not. Sadly, like most Sqns there are R Solls everywhere and the individual pratt can give a bad impression of the team. Mind you, anybody who introduces themselves in happy hour as 'Hi, I'm Red #' deserves every bit of banter he gets!
Last edited by rudekid; 22nd Jun 2004 at 21:11.
rudekid - a chum of mine (who later became a senior captain on the national flag carrying airline - Virgin Atlantic) was once rather the worse for wear at a post airshow party in the US. Unfortunately, as he turned his bleary eyed Jockistani face around, he was greeted by a character in a tight fitting flying suit....
"Hi - I'm Blue 3" quoth the Blue Angel (for verily it was indeed one of Uncle Spam's Finest Naval Aviators)'
"Heh? Blue 3 you say? Och, well, I'm Obnoxious 1 - so F*CK OFF!" came the well-fuelled and highly diplomatic response....
We apologised for our cultural ambassador - but Blue mate thought it was quite a laugh!
"Hi - I'm Blue 3" quoth the Blue Angel (for verily it was indeed one of Uncle Spam's Finest Naval Aviators)'
"Heh? Blue 3 you say? Och, well, I'm Obnoxious 1 - so F*CK OFF!" came the well-fuelled and highly diplomatic response....
We apologised for our cultural ambassador - but Blue mate thought it was quite a laugh!
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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just a short note
many years ago I was part of a crew displaying a large and venerable aircraft at an air display the red arrows were present at. Our display pilot, very experienced on type, was pleasantly surprised to be greeted at post display bash by a member of the red arrows who had seen his display and complemented him on doing a great job. Arrogant and egotistical? I think not.
We all used to extract the micheal a little from them but in all honesty they repeatedly produce the goods, season in season out. The RAF and UK plc would be a smaller and greyer place without them.
many years ago I was part of a crew displaying a large and venerable aircraft at an air display the red arrows were present at. Our display pilot, very experienced on type, was pleasantly surprised to be greeted at post display bash by a member of the red arrows who had seen his display and complemented him on doing a great job. Arrogant and egotistical? I think not.
We all used to extract the micheal a little from them but in all honesty they repeatedly produce the goods, season in season out. The RAF and UK plc would be a smaller and greyer place without them.
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Mad_Mark
Well, yes, I did come here, but I clicked the link that is still in Rumours and News. I therefore never deliberately selected a military forum, but was forced by external forces to come here. My military virginity is therefore still intact. We kissed, but we didn't inhale.
Go the Reds.
Tally ho, pip pip and all that fine military stuff.
MOR (silly mode engaged)
Well, yes, I did come here, but I clicked the link that is still in Rumours and News. I therefore never deliberately selected a military forum, but was forced by external forces to come here. My military virginity is therefore still intact. We kissed, but we didn't inhale.
Go the Reds.
Tally ho, pip pip and all that fine military stuff.
MOR (silly mode engaged)
Red On, Green On
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Perhaps Anthony B Liar and G Hooligoon are just teeing things up for a PFI'd Red Arrows?
Serco/Hunting/R Branson would be happy to bid.......
Serco/Hunting/R Branson would be happy to bid.......
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Before they are disbanded, I would, just for once, like to see the whole TT display over Ramsey Bay, Isle of Man, from start to finish:
1998 - rained, display cut short.
1999 - traffic patrol, wrong end of Island
2000 - settled down to watch opposite the pier, Reds commence run in, get called to serious bump
2001 - foot and mouth
2002- at serious bump, wrong end of Island
2003- nothing serious, just wrong end of Island
2004 - postponed race on the Tuesday, meaning I was stuck doing point duty. Could hear them but couldn't see them.
This alone should be enough for at least one more season.
1998 - rained, display cut short.
1999 - traffic patrol, wrong end of Island
2000 - settled down to watch opposite the pier, Reds commence run in, get called to serious bump
2001 - foot and mouth
2002- at serious bump, wrong end of Island
2003- nothing serious, just wrong end of Island
2004 - postponed race on the Tuesday, meaning I was stuck doing point duty. Could hear them but couldn't see them.
This alone should be enough for at least one more season.
Suspicion breeds confidence
I have to agree with Keepitlit. If cuts are to be made , then the red arrows are an obvious luxury we just don't need anymore. I'm sure the pilots concerned can be more usefully employed on other more important duties.