Mail On Sunday Apache story
You may have been
However you condemned the actions minus the facts. You unequivocally determined what transpired, came to judgment and were later proven wrong. In hind sight it looks even worse for you. Your burden of proof was a doctored video tape and nothing else.
"I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise"
Whether it was happily or otherwise is irrelevant. Your rush to find fault (incorrectly) is the crux of the argument.
However you condemned the actions minus the facts. You unequivocally determined what transpired, came to judgment and were later proven wrong. In hind sight it looks even worse for you. Your burden of proof was a doctored video tape and nothing else.
"I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise"
Whether it was happily or otherwise is irrelevant. Your rush to find fault (incorrectly) is the crux of the argument.
Believe what you will.
The rest of the world will as well.
Such actions as have been exposed in Iraq over the last few days will hardly endear your 'American way' to many.
Have a nice day........
The rest of the world will as well.
Such actions as have been exposed in Iraq over the last few days will hardly endear your 'American way' to many.
Have a nice day........
Yes - I had far better things to do.
Anyway, other people will be getting bored with all this....
Forty funerals and a wedding. We'll leave it to history to decide whether it was just.
Anyway, other people will be getting bored with all this....
Forty funerals and a wedding. We'll leave it to history to decide whether it was just.
Not too important or you wouldn't be back so soon.
Leave it to history to decide huh? That's a change considering you were ready to do it unilaterally just a number of posts ago.
Leave it to history to decide huh? That's a change considering you were ready to do it unilaterally just a number of posts ago.
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West Coast
I fear that you and yours are missing the point somewhat.
We are now fighting against a terrorist force in Iraq. "No 5hit" you may say. But what this means is that as democratic, fair and humane societies we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way.
Terrorists don't play fairly! Get used to "innocent children" and "civilians" being used as they may have been in this latest wedding party situation. This is the way that the terrorist operates. I'm no expert, but it took us 30 painful years to learn that you can't beat these people with conventional military might. (Just look at Israel). It must not take you guys 30 years to learn the same lesson.
Hearts and minds along with an extensive inteligence (especially HumInt) network is the ONLY way to do this.
I don't wish to join in the American bashing that we have seen previously on this thread and so please see this post for what it is. It IS a critisism of American methods, but it is also a critisism of the way that our government has failed to pass on the lessons that we have learnt the hard way.
I fear that you and yours are missing the point somewhat.
We are now fighting against a terrorist force in Iraq. "No 5hit" you may say. But what this means is that as democratic, fair and humane societies we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way.
Terrorists don't play fairly! Get used to "innocent children" and "civilians" being used as they may have been in this latest wedding party situation. This is the way that the terrorist operates. I'm no expert, but it took us 30 painful years to learn that you can't beat these people with conventional military might. (Just look at Israel). It must not take you guys 30 years to learn the same lesson.
Hearts and minds along with an extensive inteligence (especially HumInt) network is the ONLY way to do this.
I don't wish to join in the American bashing that we have seen previously on this thread and so please see this post for what it is. It IS a critisism of American methods, but it is also a critisism of the way that our government has failed to pass on the lessons that we have learnt the hard way.
BTT
An excellent post I thought and I agree with most of it.
"we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way"
In an idealistic form, your correct. To do as you say infers many battles. One in the military sense, another in gaining the trust of the Iraqi's. However the most important battle for purposes of perception is in the media. You can win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi's and still lose the war in the media, ala tet offensive. Notice that few of the accomplishments that would showcase the ideals you raise are reported?
How many Zogby polls from Iraq that show a general optimism for the future of Iraq receive the air time that they should? Its not news if an Iraqi is optimistic about his future. If it bleeds it leads, If it talks it walks. I remember those words from a class I attended in the military on how the press decides stories.
An excellent post I thought and I agree with most of it.
"we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way"
In an idealistic form, your correct. To do as you say infers many battles. One in the military sense, another in gaining the trust of the Iraqi's. However the most important battle for purposes of perception is in the media. You can win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi's and still lose the war in the media, ala tet offensive. Notice that few of the accomplishments that would showcase the ideals you raise are reported?
How many Zogby polls from Iraq that show a general optimism for the future of Iraq receive the air time that they should? Its not news if an Iraqi is optimistic about his future. If it bleeds it leads, If it talks it walks. I remember those words from a class I attended in the military on how the press decides stories.
Daily Telegraph 22 May 04:
Eight more Iraqi prisoner deaths investigated
The US military is investigating the deaths of eight further prisoners - including a general of Saddam Hussein - as homicides.
To classify the deaths as homicides, the authorities must think they involved suspected assaults on detainees before or during interrogation sessions that may have led to the detainees' deaths.
The US army has investigated the deaths of 32 Iraqi prisoners and another five deaths of prisoners in Afghanistan since August 2002. In total, 10 of them have been categorised as homicides.
Autopsies of prisoners have been released by the Pentagon. Causes of death include strangulation, blunt forces injuries and asphyxia, and multiple gunshot wounds. Others died from natural causes.
Earlier in the month, the Pentagon said that two prisoners had been murdered, one by an US army soldier, who shot a prisoner who was throwing stones at him. Despite being thrown out of the army, he escaped jail.
The Pentagon's decision to investigate the further deaths in custody comes in the wake of the Washington Posts's publication of more pictures that appear to show Iraqi detainees being abused within prison.
The graphic pictures have added to gathering unease about treatment of Iraqi prisoners, in particular those held in the now notorious Abu Ghraib jail.
Earlier in the month at least 20 examples of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib and other prisons was leaked.
The report, by Maj Gen Antonio Taguba, included serious findings that breached international law standards.
Eight more Iraqi prisoner deaths investigated
The US military is investigating the deaths of eight further prisoners - including a general of Saddam Hussein - as homicides.
To classify the deaths as homicides, the authorities must think they involved suspected assaults on detainees before or during interrogation sessions that may have led to the detainees' deaths.
The US army has investigated the deaths of 32 Iraqi prisoners and another five deaths of prisoners in Afghanistan since August 2002. In total, 10 of them have been categorised as homicides.
Autopsies of prisoners have been released by the Pentagon. Causes of death include strangulation, blunt forces injuries and asphyxia, and multiple gunshot wounds. Others died from natural causes.
Earlier in the month, the Pentagon said that two prisoners had been murdered, one by an US army soldier, who shot a prisoner who was throwing stones at him. Despite being thrown out of the army, he escaped jail.
The Pentagon's decision to investigate the further deaths in custody comes in the wake of the Washington Posts's publication of more pictures that appear to show Iraqi detainees being abused within prison.
The graphic pictures have added to gathering unease about treatment of Iraqi prisoners, in particular those held in the now notorious Abu Ghraib jail.
Earlier in the month at least 20 examples of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib and other prisons was leaked.
The report, by Maj Gen Antonio Taguba, included serious findings that breached international law standards.
Which particular Apache story - there seem to be one or two to choose from:
US helicopter attack kills 40 'at Iraqi wedding party'
At least 40 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday in a remote village near the Syrian border after an American helicopter fired on a wedding party, according to Iraqi officials and media reports.
Al Arabiya television said that the attack was launched after guests engaged in the tradition of firing guns in the air in celebration.
Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, a US military spokesman, said around 40 people had been killed in an attack near the Syrian border, but insisted that they were suspected foreign fighters.
He disputed reports that the victims were members of a wedding party and said the attack was within the military's rules of engagement.
If the wedding party reports are confirmed, the incident could not have come at a worse time for the US-led coalition as it strives to prevent a collapse in the security situation before the June 30 handover of sovereignty to an interim Iraqi government.
Lt Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, the deputy police chief in Ramadi, capital of al-Anbar province which includes the village of Makr-al Deeb, said between 42 and 45 people, including 15 children and 10 women, died in an air strike at about 2.45 am.
Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck piled with bodies of those allegedly killed.
The footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves in Makr-al Deeb, near the town of al Qaim. The al Qaim area is a hotbed of insurgency where five US Marines were killed last month.
Dr Salah al-Ani, speaking from a hospital in Ramadi, said wedding guests fired AK47s in celebration. US troops who came to investigate subsequently left but helicopters then swooped, killing dozens and destroying two houses.
In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by an American air strike in the Uruzgan province. A US military report said the action was justified because its aircraft had come under attack.
US helicopter attack kills 40 'at Iraqi wedding party'
At least 40 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday in a remote village near the Syrian border after an American helicopter fired on a wedding party, according to Iraqi officials and media reports.
Al Arabiya television said that the attack was launched after guests engaged in the tradition of firing guns in the air in celebration.
Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, a US military spokesman, said around 40 people had been killed in an attack near the Syrian border, but insisted that they were suspected foreign fighters.
He disputed reports that the victims were members of a wedding party and said the attack was within the military's rules of engagement.
If the wedding party reports are confirmed, the incident could not have come at a worse time for the US-led coalition as it strives to prevent a collapse in the security situation before the June 30 handover of sovereignty to an interim Iraqi government.
Lt Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, the deputy police chief in Ramadi, capital of al-Anbar province which includes the village of Makr-al Deeb, said between 42 and 45 people, including 15 children and 10 women, died in an air strike at about 2.45 am.
Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck piled with bodies of those allegedly killed.
The footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves in Makr-al Deeb, near the town of al Qaim. The al Qaim area is a hotbed of insurgency where five US Marines were killed last month.
Dr Salah al-Ani, speaking from a hospital in Ramadi, said wedding guests fired AK47s in celebration. US troops who came to investigate subsequently left but helicopters then swooped, killing dozens and destroying two houses.
In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by an American air strike in the Uruzgan province. A US military report said the action was justified because its aircraft had come under attack.
Last edited by BEagle; 22nd May 2004 at 18:35.
Someone is about to take a fall off a high horse....
Like I said earlier, everything we learned we learned from the Brits.
http://www.iht.com/articles/519344.html
You do funerals also...
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text5-11-2004-54006.asp
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8221&TagID=7
A touch of history to put current events in perspective
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/2836413.stm
This is an example of why I say we learned it all from you. The US and other countries I should say.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jul2000/sier-j22.shtml
As to prision abuse, looking like your lads are just as guilty as ours. We have owned up to it. Yours is still trying to do an end run around responsibility by claiming fakes.
Read on Beagle
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119270,00.html
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/special_packages/iraq/8626118.htm?1c
Former prisoners to sue the British gov in the Hague, shall I post a link to that also?
All the things the US is either guilty or have alledged to have done have also been committed by the British. Imagine that Beagle, your no better then us despite your inferences of such.
Like I said earlier, everything we learned we learned from the Brits.
http://www.iht.com/articles/519344.html
You do funerals also...
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text5-11-2004-54006.asp
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8221&TagID=7
A touch of history to put current events in perspective
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/2836413.stm
This is an example of why I say we learned it all from you. The US and other countries I should say.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jul2000/sier-j22.shtml
As to prision abuse, looking like your lads are just as guilty as ours. We have owned up to it. Yours is still trying to do an end run around responsibility by claiming fakes.
Read on Beagle
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119270,00.html
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/special_packages/iraq/8626118.htm?1c
Former prisoners to sue the British gov in the Hague, shall I post a link to that also?
All the things the US is either guilty or have alledged to have done have also been committed by the British. Imagine that Beagle, your no better then us despite your inferences of such.
I didn't need to search Irish Republican sites for 'Brits shoot up funeral' as you have - instead I just looked under 'My Lai' to remind myself about The American Way of waging war:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam...hes/mylai.html
And that was 1970. Way before the Noraid-sponsored propaganda which you've posted.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam...hes/mylai.html
And that was 1970. Way before the Noraid-sponsored propaganda which you've posted.
At least try to be accurate, My Lai took place in 1968, March 16th to be exact. The trial took place in 1970.
All I needed to do was a google search for the British way of waging war. That's were I found reports of the killing of innocents including children at the hands of Brit troops.
Funny thing beagle, I am not claiming the US to be as pure as the driven snow. I simply am reminding YOU that YOUR government is guilty of the same things you pounce on the US for. You post ad nauseam about the US actions in Iraq. I thought you might want to see what your tommy's have been up to since you seem to focus in entirely on the US.
You want to talk about the way the US wages war huh? Review a few stories about the British way of waging war in Iraq and find its remarkably like the US. Like I said, we learned it all from your lot. And we gave you the quiet part to manage also, and still we hear about the same things there as happen in the hot spots of Iraq.
The Brits shooting up the wedding and the funeral were in Iraq, had nothing to do with the IRA. Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it? Shooting up public gatherings seems to be the exclusive charter of US troops if one was to listen to you, has the biased broadcasting corporation somehow failed you and this is the first you have heard of it? My guess is your anti American bias allows you to look past your atrocities and find out the American body count for the day.
Spud
I agree with you, I am simply knocking Beagle off his high horse.
It hasn't been hard.
All I needed to do was a google search for the British way of waging war. That's were I found reports of the killing of innocents including children at the hands of Brit troops.
Funny thing beagle, I am not claiming the US to be as pure as the driven snow. I simply am reminding YOU that YOUR government is guilty of the same things you pounce on the US for. You post ad nauseam about the US actions in Iraq. I thought you might want to see what your tommy's have been up to since you seem to focus in entirely on the US.
You want to talk about the way the US wages war huh? Review a few stories about the British way of waging war in Iraq and find its remarkably like the US. Like I said, we learned it all from your lot. And we gave you the quiet part to manage also, and still we hear about the same things there as happen in the hot spots of Iraq.
The Brits shooting up the wedding and the funeral were in Iraq, had nothing to do with the IRA. Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it? Shooting up public gatherings seems to be the exclusive charter of US troops if one was to listen to you, has the biased broadcasting corporation somehow failed you and this is the first you have heard of it? My guess is your anti American bias allows you to look past your atrocities and find out the American body count for the day.
Spud
I agree with you, I am simply knocking Beagle off his high horse.
It hasn't been hard.
" Like I said, we learned it all from your lot."
Really? Susbtantiate that claim, if you can.
Thank heavens that the likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and Dimwit Dubya weren't around to inflict their ideas on the world in 1962. Had they been, we wouldn't have been here now....
Really? Susbtantiate that claim, if you can.
Thank heavens that the likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and Dimwit Dubya weren't around to inflict their ideas on the world in 1962. Had they been, we wouldn't have been here now....
Last edited by BEagle; 22nd May 2004 at 23:46.
Wow, what a truly fantastic willy-waving contest this is. 
West Coast - All that work to prove a point and you cocked up every link. Don't worry about going back to sort it out though, I think we all get the idea!
Apache video - good job.
Wedding vs Terrorist gathering - Who knows, not I
Prisoner abuse - completely unacceptable. The fact that it has been done before doesn't make it any more acceptable now.
West Coast - All that work to prove a point and you cocked up every link. Don't worry about going back to sort it out though, I think we all get the idea!
Apache video - good job.
Wedding vs Terrorist gathering - Who knows, not I
Prisoner abuse - completely unacceptable. The fact that it has been done before doesn't make it any more acceptable now.
Man!!
I need to take a computer class I reckon. Guess that shows Beagle didn't even take time to open them or he would have been on my ass about it. Now I understand his error about the IRA and the funeral, he assumed and didn't read.
When you got a willy this big, you can't help but wave it from time to time.
Beagle
Is that the best you can do? Late hour and/or a pint interfering with your retort?
Now are you sure you meant 1962? You have been a little off on your research as of late.
That's President Bush to you. Who knows what would have happened, well except you of course. I applaud your ability (imagination actually) to draw firm conclusions about an event with then notional characters.
I need to take a computer class I reckon. Guess that shows Beagle didn't even take time to open them or he would have been on my ass about it. Now I understand his error about the IRA and the funeral, he assumed and didn't read.
When you got a willy this big, you can't help but wave it from time to time.
Beagle
Is that the best you can do? Late hour and/or a pint interfering with your retort?
Now are you sure you meant 1962? You have been a little off on your research as of late.
That's President Bush to you. Who knows what would have happened, well except you of course. I applaud your ability (imagination actually) to draw firm conclusions about an event with then notional characters.
Last edited by West Coast; 23rd May 2004 at 00:02.
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West Coast
Aren't you even slightly concerned, that even your so-called ALLIES have such a disparraging view of your country's 'foreign policy?'
I can't make your links work at all, but I did have to laugh if you are suggesting any links between Irish Republican 'terrorism' (That's right, the kind your countrymen sponsored through Noraid!) and the continuing slaughter in Iraq!
It must be so comforting to view the rest of the World in the same way your countrymen viewed their charges in Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, etc. etc.
I ask you again, aren't you even slightly concerned about the pictures being broadcast by American news networks, along with the BBC, and the rest of the World's media?
Aren't you even slightly concerned, that even your so-called ALLIES have such a disparraging view of your country's 'foreign policy?'
I can't make your links work at all, but I did have to laugh if you are suggesting any links between Irish Republican 'terrorism' (That's right, the kind your countrymen sponsored through Noraid!) and the continuing slaughter in Iraq!
It must be so comforting to view the rest of the World in the same way your countrymen viewed their charges in Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, etc. etc.
I ask you again, aren't you even slightly concerned about the pictures being broadcast by American news networks, along with the BBC, and the rest of the World's media?
Don't confuse this thread as anything but what it is, political banter. There are a few here that think that the UK isn't guilty of the same abuses in Iraq as the US. My mission is to fill the gap in their knowledge as to what the UK is doing down in the south.
I see the UK as having blood on the hands just the same as the US, do you disagree?
Absolutely I am concerned about the prison abuse going on. Those responsible need to be punished. I read today that it so far as has been linked as high as a 3 star general. (Sanchez)
The images you and I see on the news have to be balanced. One would have to wear blinders to think reporters don't have an agenda to pursue vis a vis politics. An example is the tape that was the genesis of this thread. It was shown in an edited format to sway opinion. Many willingly bought off on it and roundly damned the US for killing simple farmers. The truth showed something completely different. As to the wedding, I don't know. I try to balance reports of heavy weapons, sniper rifles and other war paraphernalia against the emotive pictures of bodies being laid to rest. I won't make my judgment based on what the media has to say.
As to "so called allies" (your words) I have long suspected a realigning of camps would occur post cold war. That may be happening now.
As far as our traditionally closest political ally, the UK they are shoulder to shoulder with us on the Iraq war. If you speak of the electorate, then you may be correct.
Apoligies about the threads not working. The historical perspective I inferred was about Brit soldiers killing civilians in NI.
I see the UK as having blood on the hands just the same as the US, do you disagree?
Absolutely I am concerned about the prison abuse going on. Those responsible need to be punished. I read today that it so far as has been linked as high as a 3 star general. (Sanchez)
The images you and I see on the news have to be balanced. One would have to wear blinders to think reporters don't have an agenda to pursue vis a vis politics. An example is the tape that was the genesis of this thread. It was shown in an edited format to sway opinion. Many willingly bought off on it and roundly damned the US for killing simple farmers. The truth showed something completely different. As to the wedding, I don't know. I try to balance reports of heavy weapons, sniper rifles and other war paraphernalia against the emotive pictures of bodies being laid to rest. I won't make my judgment based on what the media has to say.
As to "so called allies" (your words) I have long suspected a realigning of camps would occur post cold war. That may be happening now.
As far as our traditionally closest political ally, the UK they are shoulder to shoulder with us on the Iraq war. If you speak of the electorate, then you may be correct.
Apoligies about the threads not working. The historical perspective I inferred was about Brit soldiers killing civilians in NI.
I'm not sure why the links didn't work - I opened them OK. Which is why I commented upon the Noraid propaganda 'Irish Prisoners of War - NORAID Online' which is the third item in the second link - the one which shows a search under 'brits shoot up funeral'.
We agree that prisoner abuse is a scandal, and whether it's conducted by the UK, US or Martian forces, it's equally despicable and those guilty must be punished.
I conceded that the Apache video may have been 'selective' in nature and quite probaly was an attack on a legitimate target - all except the murder of the last man, clearly injured by the truck fire and then butchered by the Apache.
I gave the US the benefit of the doubt over the 'safe house/wedding party' item - and later said "I hope that this doesn't turn out to have been a serious blunder?" when further inormation appeared in the presss, implying that I hope that my original view was correct.
I have no faith in any of the current US administration, neither do I in Bliar et al.
I'm equally as glad that Dubya wasn't running things in the US at the time of the Cuban missile crisis as I am that Trust-me-Tone wasn't around to suck US bottom during the Viet Nam war.
However, at least the US is still prepared to invest in its military forces - I'll certainly give you that, West C.
And yes - it was rather late. But I'm still intrigued to know how the US 'learned' its techniques from the UK..........
We agree that prisoner abuse is a scandal, and whether it's conducted by the UK, US or Martian forces, it's equally despicable and those guilty must be punished.
I conceded that the Apache video may have been 'selective' in nature and quite probaly was an attack on a legitimate target - all except the murder of the last man, clearly injured by the truck fire and then butchered by the Apache.
I gave the US the benefit of the doubt over the 'safe house/wedding party' item - and later said "I hope that this doesn't turn out to have been a serious blunder?" when further inormation appeared in the presss, implying that I hope that my original view was correct.
I have no faith in any of the current US administration, neither do I in Bliar et al.
I'm equally as glad that Dubya wasn't running things in the US at the time of the Cuban missile crisis as I am that Trust-me-Tone wasn't around to suck US bottom during the Viet Nam war.
However, at least the US is still prepared to invest in its military forces - I'll certainly give you that, West C.
And yes - it was rather late. But I'm still intrigued to know how the US 'learned' its techniques from the UK..........