Mail On Sunday Apache story
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Mail On Sunday Apache story
The Mail On Sunday, most commonly known for its sometimes excessive right wing stance and often blind unquestioning support for the Armed Forces, seems to have taken a lesson in journalistic stirring from the Mirror.
Today it published an article entitled 'Shocking Evidence of American Brutality', linked to here. This story in turn has a link to some sighting video from an AH-64 here . The video is probably not suitable for sensitive types.
You can draw your own conclusions from the video vs the story, but to me it smacks of gutter journalism - try to generate a 'sensational' story when there really isn't one there. Anyone who agrees with the copy or is shocked by the content of the video clearly has no concept of what warfare is about. I don't know what these people imagined was going on in Iraq in the early months of last year, but I would expect everyone to realise that in full-on war, people get shot. This is not brutality. This is a fact of war.
I am an SH pilot (who has been to Iraq and will again soon), not an IntO or apache type, but to me, the 'object' at 'left of arc' looks very much like an anti aircraft gun, with a hot barrel, behind a towing vehicle. A chappy is seen to climb out of what I would suggest is the gunner's seat before getting some hot lead. A legitimate target. The Mail is known for fairly crappy journalism but at least is normally on side. This whole story stinks and misleads the general public.
Rant over. Discuss.
Today it published an article entitled 'Shocking Evidence of American Brutality', linked to here. This story in turn has a link to some sighting video from an AH-64 here . The video is probably not suitable for sensitive types.
You can draw your own conclusions from the video vs the story, but to me it smacks of gutter journalism - try to generate a 'sensational' story when there really isn't one there. Anyone who agrees with the copy or is shocked by the content of the video clearly has no concept of what warfare is about. I don't know what these people imagined was going on in Iraq in the early months of last year, but I would expect everyone to realise that in full-on war, people get shot. This is not brutality. This is a fact of war.
I am an SH pilot (who has been to Iraq and will again soon), not an IntO or apache type, but to me, the 'object' at 'left of arc' looks very much like an anti aircraft gun, with a hot barrel, behind a towing vehicle. A chappy is seen to climb out of what I would suggest is the gunner's seat before getting some hot lead. A legitimate target. The Mail is known for fairly crappy journalism but at least is normally on side. This whole story stinks and misleads the general public.
Rant over. Discuss.
The same gung-ho mentality of brutal overkill which was evident back in Viet Nam. The left-of-arc 'target' looks to me like a farm tractor with a hot exhaust pipe and rear transmission towing a harrow.
"He's wounded"
"Hit him"
And people wonder why much of the world doesn't love Americans?
"He's wounded"
"Hit him"
And people wonder why much of the world doesn't love Americans?
A_b_i_w, it looks just like the old, pre-cab tractors of my youth still used in that part of the world. Look carefully and you can see the steering wheel, mirror and the hot rear transmission casing. No AAA system I've ever seen looked like that, nor would it be stuck out in the open in that way with a hot barrel after being used.
Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.......
No evidence of secondary explosions which would be expected if this really was a AAA site and crew.
Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.......
No evidence of secondary explosions which would be expected if this really was a AAA site and crew.
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What a bunch of Heroes!!! At least it wasnt our own guys!!
Lets all shout "woop woop woop!"
And they dont understand why they are hated and not trusted!!
Makes me sick of being from the western world!!
Lets all shout "woop woop woop!"
And they dont understand why they are hated and not trusted!!
Makes me sick of being from the western world!!
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Well gentlemen, as I said I am not an IntO and I will now bow down to Beag's superior tractor recognition. I found a longer piece of video on the internet, from which the aformentioned clip is taken. If you have broadband and file sharing software search for a video file entitled 'Apache kills in Iraq' (36MB).
Yes I was wrong the AAA is a tractor and the thing below it is a furrow. However, before the Mail clip kicks off you see that the chaps are up to no good, moving weapons into the field from the truck.
The American (and allegedly the Brits') handling of Iraqi POWs recently has been deplorable and I feel this article is just trying to jump on the bandwagon.
I still think that this particular article is a non-story.
Yes I was wrong the AAA is a tractor and the thing below it is a furrow. However, before the Mail clip kicks off you see that the chaps are up to no good, moving weapons into the field from the truck.
The American (and allegedly the Brits') handling of Iraqi POWs recently has been deplorable and I feel this article is just trying to jump on the bandwagon.
I still think that this particular article is a non-story.
With a sloooooooooooooooooooowwwwwww connection, I've not had time to look at the footage yet - but from the discussion it sounds remarkably similar to an mpeg of a tractor being shot up by an AH-64 that was doing the rounds in January (it was discussed on the army means that dare not speak its URL).
If it is the same, it would seem that either a) the Mail is very, very slow or b) that there is an element of bandwaggoning [is that a word?] going on.
Can anyone confirm whether it is the same footage? If it isn't, farm labouring in Iraq has become vastly more dangerous...
If it is the same, it would seem that either a) the Mail is very, very slow or b) that there is an element of bandwaggoning [is that a word?] going on.
Can anyone confirm whether it is the same footage? If it isn't, farm labouring in Iraq has become vastly more dangerous...
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No more Tractors for me.........
.........I've renounced tractor spotting, and have moved into the better world of air recirculation........................
Yes, you've guessed it......I'm an Ex-Tractor Fan!!
(On a more serious note, it seems like a good 'ol Massey Ferg or similar to me)
Yes, you've guessed it......I'm an Ex-Tractor Fan!!
(On a more serious note, it seems like a good 'ol Massey Ferg or similar to me)
Beagle
Guess who is hated only slightly less than the Americans around the world?
Hint, your one of them. Got them on both sides of you, the Irish and the French.
Guess who is hated only slightly less than the Americans around the world?
Hint, your one of them. Got them on both sides of you, the Irish and the French.
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War is hell, but good grouping, good grouping ? 
I'd be interested to see the footage of the previous ten minutes or so to put the scenario in context. (For example, maybe they were just shooting in the air to celebrate Jaffar's wedding ?)
West Coast, I really do hope you mean the Welsh
I'd be interested to see the footage of the previous ten minutes or so to put the scenario in context. (For example, maybe they were just shooting in the air to celebrate Jaffar's wedding ?)
West Coast, I really do hope you mean the Welsh
No - he means the Klingons!
When I was serving in a combined ops theatre to which we were regularly deployed over the last 10 years, I noticed a distinct change in the manner of our allies. Earlier, we had been involved in supporting armed recce of certain areas; during my last deployment there was a sickening attitude of "You guys will go stir them up so we can bomb them". In other words the tempo had become increasingly aggressive for no clear reason. I even heard a comment that "We'd better get something today, otherwise the ??? ANG will go home without having bombed anything". This would never have been acceptable in previous years; quite who was responsible for this alarming change in attitude, I do not know. It surely wasn't Saddam!
The truths beginning to emerge are backing up precisely what many already suspected. I was flamed for daring to suggest that there was a bit of a Reichstag fire reaction after the World Trade Center outrage (Goebbels was desperate to prove that the fire was the work of Communists so that he could erase them- Bush seemed equally hell bent on trying to find an Iraqi link with the WTC attacks) - the truth about the planning to remove Saddam (not an unreasonable concept, of course, so long as there was a sound, internationally supported reason) seems to be backing up all the doubters' suspicions.
When I was serving in a combined ops theatre to which we were regularly deployed over the last 10 years, I noticed a distinct change in the manner of our allies. Earlier, we had been involved in supporting armed recce of certain areas; during my last deployment there was a sickening attitude of "You guys will go stir them up so we can bomb them". In other words the tempo had become increasingly aggressive for no clear reason. I even heard a comment that "We'd better get something today, otherwise the ??? ANG will go home without having bombed anything". This would never have been acceptable in previous years; quite who was responsible for this alarming change in attitude, I do not know. It surely wasn't Saddam!
The truths beginning to emerge are backing up precisely what many already suspected. I was flamed for daring to suggest that there was a bit of a Reichstag fire reaction after the World Trade Center outrage (Goebbels was desperate to prove that the fire was the work of Communists so that he could erase them- Bush seemed equally hell bent on trying to find an Iraqi link with the WTC attacks) - the truth about the planning to remove Saddam (not an unreasonable concept, of course, so long as there was a sound, internationally supported reason) seems to be backing up all the doubters' suspicions.
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I'm fairly sure that you're right Beag's, which leads me to conclude that the boys (&girls) were sent into harm's way, some not to return, on the strength of a known falsehood.
If that's not an act of treason - what is?
If that's not an act of treason - what is?
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Yes Beagle,
Have to agree on a distinct aggressive stance from most of my cousins out here.
Saddam just flipped the finger at the US once too often. Qaddafi saw the results and turned in for the rest of his life despite the macho rhetoric to save face with some of the people around him, who perceive his rapprochement as weakness.
Iran has lovely people but the clerics ensure it remains a third world toilet, Afghanistan is as under control as it could ever be given the Kalshnikov culture and basic enforced lack of intellect of the male population there. I honestly don't think the Americans are in a mood to give a stuff what anyone else might think about them for the time being. The populations of various countries will remain poverty stricken and/or with their noses pressed up against the window for a long time to come due to their leaders stance and celebration of 9/11.
Problem is our 24 hour media fed culture wants instant results, instant sanitised, bloodless victory in War, instant satisfaction, instant democracy.....
Interestingly, if you look at West Germany, Taiwan and Japan, they all benefited handsomely from American "interference" after the War. Who is to say Iraq might not be a glowing example of democracy and industrial growth too in a couple of decades ?
Luckily, Vickers/ROF never made Tractors
Have to agree on a distinct aggressive stance from most of my cousins out here.
Saddam just flipped the finger at the US once too often. Qaddafi saw the results and turned in for the rest of his life despite the macho rhetoric to save face with some of the people around him, who perceive his rapprochement as weakness.
Iran has lovely people but the clerics ensure it remains a third world toilet, Afghanistan is as under control as it could ever be given the Kalshnikov culture and basic enforced lack of intellect of the male population there. I honestly don't think the Americans are in a mood to give a stuff what anyone else might think about them for the time being. The populations of various countries will remain poverty stricken and/or with their noses pressed up against the window for a long time to come due to their leaders stance and celebration of 9/11.
Problem is our 24 hour media fed culture wants instant results, instant sanitised, bloodless victory in War, instant satisfaction, instant democracy.....
Interestingly, if you look at West Germany, Taiwan and Japan, they all benefited handsomely from American "interference" after the War. Who is to say Iraq might not be a glowing example of democracy and industrial growth too in a couple of decades ?
Luckily, Vickers/ROF never made Tractors
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I saw this video months ago on another site. Resurrecting it now is just opportunism and an example of how the media in general has swung further against the war based on the current scandals.
The video was picked over by many people. The long version makes it clear what's happening. For those of you who think they were innocent farmers. Ask yourself what they were doing farming in the middle of the night? When the first man is hit, look at the reaction of second man. Does he dive for cover? No, like a good soldier he desperately tries to unwrap something on his tractor. Not the reaction of farmer. The third man dies because he's there.
From my point of view it's war, not the sanitised version we've been fed. It's nasty and unpleasant
But it gives Beagle and Av18tor and all the others a chance to exercise the anti American prejudices.
Well that's OK then.
The video was picked over by many people. The long version makes it clear what's happening. For those of you who think they were innocent farmers. Ask yourself what they were doing farming in the middle of the night? When the first man is hit, look at the reaction of second man. Does he dive for cover? No, like a good soldier he desperately tries to unwrap something on his tractor. Not the reaction of farmer. The third man dies because he's there.
From my point of view it's war, not the sanitised version we've been fed. It's nasty and unpleasant
But it gives Beagle and Av18tor and all the others a chance to exercise the anti American prejudices.
Well that's OK then.
Please accept that I am not 'anti-American'. Yes, I'm certainly anti a number of American policies, attitudes and personalities, but not so generally.
Quite a bit of farming goes in in the middle of the night since the invention of the headlamp. It's a ****'s sight cooler, for one thing.
The cold-blooded killing of the wounded man by the Apache crew is, however, utterly inexcusable.
Quite a bit of farming goes in in the middle of the night since the invention of the headlamp. It's a ****'s sight cooler, for one thing.
The cold-blooded killing of the wounded man by the Apache crew is, however, utterly inexcusable.
C'mon beag's wear your colors proudly. You are most certainly anti American. Your sniping goes far beyond politics and personalities. You can talk all you want, your body of work speaks with a far different voice.
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I'm certainly not anti American, I love the place and most of the people.
But.......
Your boss is a complete buffoon who makes even our government look competant (except Prescott of course!) and I think that the American people and most of the rest of us for that matter will be paying for his "war against terrorrism" for many years to come.
But.......
Your boss is a complete buffoon who makes even our government look competant (except Prescott of course!) and I think that the American people and most of the rest of us for that matter will be paying for his "war against terrorrism" for many years to come.
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Beags, for once I have to agree with you. Unfortunatley, some wish not to see the wood for the trees.
As soon as you criticise, they brand you anti this, anti that.
BTT, scary aint it.
As soon as you criticise, they brand you anti this, anti that.
BTT, scary aint it.