Movers v Loadies (Merged)
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Grimweasel:
'Check your bags sir? Did you pack them yourself? Reply" Oh yes, like I am the governor on India in the colonial days. Patek packs my bags for me??!!!" Of course I packed them myself you feckwit!'
Is this what you say every time you check your bags in and fly on a civilian airline? No, you just stay quiet because you can't hide behind your rank. The civvies can have regulations but the movers/ATSy can't? You a**e.................
'Check your bags sir? Did you pack them yourself? Reply" Oh yes, like I am the governor on India in the colonial days. Patek packs my bags for me??!!!" Of course I packed them myself you feckwit!'
Is this what you say every time you check your bags in and fly on a civilian airline? No, you just stay quiet because you can't hide behind your rank. The civvies can have regulations but the movers/ATSy can't? You a**e.................
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AAArrgghhhhh! For those I am about to insult, be insulted!
The following of Regulations is kind of what the military does. Yes - there is some room for common sense (if you'd ever met me, you'd know it is all I have - no education to speak of!).
If my guys had missed a Leatherman/knife etc, it was usually the operating crew that went harpic and roared at us! Not so usual on the Fat Albert & C-17 (worship its form and function in awe) but more usual on the 10 & Tri*. ATSY Is supposed to be the RAFP's world - if they don't show, the Movers have to do their best and may apply the regs wrongly. Tough.
Those who slag the 'following orders' line. Not the Nuremberg Trials here - not a prison camp - not slotting POWs. Military. That means someone higher up the tree can make rules, get them written down and MAKE others follow them. Those not or no longer in the military - please express yourself to your management in a way I cannot. Better? Good.
As a lowly JO it is waaaay over my pay band and if you think petitioning someone on the AFB means you can carry your knife, please do it.
None of us likes all the rules, but we like enough of them to still be here.
And yes - most ALMs do a great job - just like most people in most branches and trades.
I love you all.
The following of Regulations is kind of what the military does. Yes - there is some room for common sense (if you'd ever met me, you'd know it is all I have - no education to speak of!).
If my guys had missed a Leatherman/knife etc, it was usually the operating crew that went harpic and roared at us! Not so usual on the Fat Albert & C-17 (worship its form and function in awe) but more usual on the 10 & Tri*. ATSY Is supposed to be the RAFP's world - if they don't show, the Movers have to do their best and may apply the regs wrongly. Tough.
Those who slag the 'following orders' line. Not the Nuremberg Trials here - not a prison camp - not slotting POWs. Military. That means someone higher up the tree can make rules, get them written down and MAKE others follow them. Those not or no longer in the military - please express yourself to your management in a way I cannot. Better? Good.
As a lowly JO it is waaaay over my pay band and if you think petitioning someone on the AFB means you can carry your knife, please do it.
None of us likes all the rules, but we like enough of them to still be here.
And yes - most ALMs do a great job - just like most people in most branches and trades.
I love you all.
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Oggin
In response to your question about pax on duty trips never in a million years using thier knives.
I guss then, that it would be fair to say that never in a million years would a pilot get airborne and do something daft (jump, fly over grandad's gaff, beat up the (ex-) girlfriend's shop). Nah, course not Malcolm, never happen.
No, no, no, never. No chance. Not whilst there are dogs on the street.
Where did I put me coat....
In response to your question about pax on duty trips never in a million years using thier knives.
I guss then, that it would be fair to say that never in a million years would a pilot get airborne and do something daft (jump, fly over grandad's gaff, beat up the (ex-) girlfriend's shop). Nah, course not Malcolm, never happen.
No, no, no, never. No chance. Not whilst there are dogs on the street.
Where did I put me coat....
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Whenever I am aircraft captain (yes it happens a lot in the RN - backseaters legally in charge 
) I would not allow my pilots to do anything stupid or illegal. Its just not worth it. I have flown over my parents house at low level and waved hello, however this was on a properly planned, briefed and legally authorised sortie. Events like these can happen well within the rules. What other aircrew get up to is their business.
Then again I may be in the minority but I dont think so.
Mr C, I do agree about rules being followed, but this small issue of not allowing the carrying (= physically attached to flightsuit by a piece of cord) of aircrew knives by aircrew on duty on service aeroplanes does annoy me. Perhaps you as a JO could talk to someone senior and get an amendment to the rules, then we would all be happy. You might even get a Herbert Lott for increasing morale amongst aircrew pax
Oggin
) I would not allow my pilots to do anything stupid or illegal. Its just not worth it. I have flown over my parents house at low level and waved hello, however this was on a properly planned, briefed and legally authorised sortie. Events like these can happen well within the rules. What other aircrew get up to is their business.Then again I may be in the minority but I dont think so.
Mr C, I do agree about rules being followed, but this small issue of not allowing the carrying (= physically attached to flightsuit by a piece of cord) of aircrew knives by aircrew on duty on service aeroplanes does annoy me. Perhaps you as a JO could talk to someone senior and get an amendment to the rules, then we would all be happy. You might even get a Herbert Lott for increasing morale amongst aircrew pax
Oggin
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Question for Oggin aviator
Do you really need your knife that badly, is it just because you feel that if you go down in the oggin you can cut your self out of the frame or are you planning on doing some woodwork or maybe some fruit sculpture to pass the many hours of boredom when travelling as a passenger?
I’m afraid non of these are possible because if you go down in the oggin chances are the frame will sink like a stone and also the aircrew knife cannot cut through butter never mind the airframe. Or is it because it makes you stand out.(look at my big knife girls)
I have a suggestion why don’t you propose to amend the current security procedures to say all sharp objects are banned from hand luggage. UNLESS
They are attached by a piece of flimsy string to your leg.
In that case can take my 9MM on board as the holster attaches to my leg? (This is my weapon this is my gun)
I still firmly believe that officers should not be issued with any thing that can cut; this includes paper.
All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell
Do you really need your knife that badly, is it just because you feel that if you go down in the oggin you can cut your self out of the frame or are you planning on doing some woodwork or maybe some fruit sculpture to pass the many hours of boredom when travelling as a passenger?
I’m afraid non of these are possible because if you go down in the oggin chances are the frame will sink like a stone and also the aircrew knife cannot cut through butter never mind the airframe. Or is it because it makes you stand out.(look at my big knife girls)
I have a suggestion why don’t you propose to amend the current security procedures to say all sharp objects are banned from hand luggage. UNLESS
They are attached by a piece of flimsy string to your leg.
In that case can take my 9MM on board as the holster attaches to my leg? (This is my weapon this is my gun)
I still firmly believe that officers should not be issued with any thing that can cut; this includes paper.
All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell
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TAC - Well you really are a Queen as well as having a pathetic sense of humour.
My knife may one day save my life in my sinking helicopter, indeed they have in the past. I dont see why I should alter my uniform just to keep some snotty nosed non comm happy.
and BTW, I dont give a toss what you do with your 9mm, if it was mine I'd take that along as well.
I still firmly believe that other ranks should be gently reminded now and again about being respectful to Officers; this includes SNCOs i.e. Lets start this conversation again shall we, and this time lets realise that I am the Officer and you are the NCO.
With respect to all the decent hard working SNCOs who keep the Services running. Its just these jumped up ar$eholes I cant stand.
Oggin
My knife may one day save my life in my sinking helicopter, indeed they have in the past. I dont see why I should alter my uniform just to keep some snotty nosed non comm happy.
and BTW, I dont give a toss what you do with your 9mm, if it was mine I'd take that along as well.
I still firmly believe that other ranks should be gently reminded now and again about being respectful to Officers; this includes SNCOs i.e. Lets start this conversation again shall we, and this time lets realise that I am the Officer and you are the NCO.
With respect to all the decent hard working SNCOs who keep the Services running. Its just these jumped up ar$eholes I cant stand.
Oggin
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Oggin,
Stop that officer sh@t RIGHT NOW
It has no place on here
As a fellow ALM I am not sure where TQ is coming from however the last few lines of your post sound very childish to say the least.......b@ll@kin finish's
Bearing in mind everything said on here so far, by those who actually count, as regards the knife/gerber subject has clearly stated the rule is b@ll@ks, enforced by atomatons whose JO's and SNCO's are incapable of standing out from the crowd by trying to make a reduction in "trade fun", lets now give the subject a rest as it aint going to change
Didntdoit.........now I see why you lot are called muppets
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
PS Over to you Mr C........prove us wrong
Stop that officer sh@t RIGHT NOW
It has no place on here As a fellow ALM I am not sure where TQ is coming from however the last few lines of your post sound very childish to say the least.......b@ll@kin finish's
Bearing in mind everything said on here so far, by those who actually count, as regards the knife/gerber subject has clearly stated the rule is b@ll@ks, enforced by atomatons whose JO's and SNCO's are incapable of standing out from the crowd by trying to make a reduction in "trade fun", lets now give the subject a rest as it aint going to change
Didntdoit.........now I see why you lot are called muppets
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
PS Over to you Mr C........prove us wrong
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Thats SNCO to you sir!
Granted you require your knife when flying in your helicopter. But please explain why you need it when paxing on a multi engine aircraft.
Please use small words as I am only a SNCO and cannot read very fast.
I am standing to attention and saluting as I type this.
Yes I have thought about ditching on my previous and current aircraft type and have looked into examples as it is my job to get every one down the back out. Have you?
I do agree that the rule does not make sense as you have troops who have just had a automatic weapon with x amount of round walking around but they then cannot get on a aircraft with a pen knife. I would just like some one to justify why they need it. I don’t care one bit if they carry them or not. I’m just sick to the back teeth of people wining over bollocks.
Granted you require your knife when flying in your helicopter. But please explain why you need it when paxing on a multi engine aircraft.
Please use small words as I am only a SNCO and cannot read very fast.
I am standing to attention and saluting as I type this.
Yes I have thought about ditching on my previous and current aircraft type and have looked into examples as it is my job to get every one down the back out. Have you?
I do agree that the rule does not make sense as you have troops who have just had a automatic weapon with x amount of round walking around but they then cannot get on a aircraft with a pen knife. I would just like some one to justify why they need it. I don’t care one bit if they carry them or not. I’m just sick to the back teeth of people wining over bollocks.
Well stop causing such bollocks then!
Years ago when I was first on the VC10K, we didn't carry loadmasters. We once took some Buccaneer mates home from Cyprus, plus their flying kit. Which included LSJs (+ miniflares etc), knives etc. The pompous 'Master Engineer' (who was ex-shiny fleet) started mouthing off about 'DAC regs.....not allowed.....'. So, in a particular CRM moment he was told to "Shut the f*ck up, the LSJs will go in a poly bag behind the seats and that's that. Oh - and don't forget, mister Engineer, they are aircrew officers. So if you don't treat them as such, expect to be in front of the boss when you get home!"
Heady days - when captains were king. As a co-pilot, I was very impressed at this captain's ability to put d*ckheads back in their box when it mattered.
Years ago when I was first on the VC10K, we didn't carry loadmasters. We once took some Buccaneer mates home from Cyprus, plus their flying kit. Which included LSJs (+ miniflares etc), knives etc. The pompous 'Master Engineer' (who was ex-shiny fleet) started mouthing off about 'DAC regs.....not allowed.....'. So, in a particular CRM moment he was told to "Shut the f*ck up, the LSJs will go in a poly bag behind the seats and that's that. Oh - and don't forget, mister Engineer, they are aircrew officers. So if you don't treat them as such, expect to be in front of the boss when you get home!"
Heady days - when captains were king. As a co-pilot, I was very impressed at this captain's ability to put d*ckheads back in their box when it mattered.
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Way back on this thread Pig Clarke said
The last few posts seem to be proving him right...
It is a shame that teamwork still takes such a back burner in the RAF to individual posturing and one-upmanship which is so valued in the Military.
When the lofty loadie serves the meal to the Captain he in turn looks down his nose at Sgt Lofty, and so the never ending saga goes on.
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ABIW
If nothing else you're persistent (and repetetive!). you made the same comments in March on the "Sorry, you're a pax now" thread. Same answers apply as well, the Movers don't make these rules they are ATSy one's. You're also the guy who says he promptly hands back out the sharp implements to the pax after "doors closed". If you and your brethren don't like the rule why don't you bring it up at the ALM Standardisation Meeting and get it changed rather than constantly bleating about it here?
Personally I don't recollect the poor LAC on the check-in desk confiscating the knives - it's alawys been the plods by the scanner. The comment about knives being on the end of a cord is not always true neither is it? I thought that the knives had been removed from all aircrew at Lyneham but the Loadies got theirs back on the grounds they needed it to stab the milk carton....
Scapegoat
The question of who packed the bags is one of five that are mandatorily asked by all civvy and military pax staff and has been so for at least the last 25 years. One of the other questions is "Are you carrying anything for someone else?" On that one even in recent years the answer has produced some remarkable answers including:
1. Fast Jet guys arrived from Bruggen who had placed LSJs in their hold baggage whilst flying from Germany courtesy of Britannia.
2. A female medic on her way to Sierra Leone carrying fully charged Sarbe beacons for the SH crews on det from Odiham - the squipper Sgt said it was okay...
3. Tins of paint "to touch up the caravan with"....
4. Christmas Crackers - yes, it was the festive season and aren't the movers killjoys....
Once the mover receives a positive answer to the latter he sadly cannot 'turn a blind eye' as if he did the RAFP who are next in the chain would no doubt make an issue of it.
I did a course with British Airways a few years ago and their Senior Dangerous Cargo Instructor said his worst nightmare was of someone carrying a pot of 'Instant expanding foam' as used to seal leaks on yachts, the thought of it initiating in a lower hold is unimaginable.
Right guys, stupid rule concerning sharp implements on military aircraft so let's get it changed. ABIW, what kind of man are you Gladys? Go and start a campaign and see how far you get.
If nothing else you're persistent (and repetetive!). you made the same comments in March on the "Sorry, you're a pax now" thread. Same answers apply as well, the Movers don't make these rules they are ATSy one's. You're also the guy who says he promptly hands back out the sharp implements to the pax after "doors closed". If you and your brethren don't like the rule why don't you bring it up at the ALM Standardisation Meeting and get it changed rather than constantly bleating about it here?
Personally I don't recollect the poor LAC on the check-in desk confiscating the knives - it's alawys been the plods by the scanner. The comment about knives being on the end of a cord is not always true neither is it? I thought that the knives had been removed from all aircrew at Lyneham but the Loadies got theirs back on the grounds they needed it to stab the milk carton....
Scapegoat
The question of who packed the bags is one of five that are mandatorily asked by all civvy and military pax staff and has been so for at least the last 25 years. One of the other questions is "Are you carrying anything for someone else?" On that one even in recent years the answer has produced some remarkable answers including:
1. Fast Jet guys arrived from Bruggen who had placed LSJs in their hold baggage whilst flying from Germany courtesy of Britannia.
2. A female medic on her way to Sierra Leone carrying fully charged Sarbe beacons for the SH crews on det from Odiham - the squipper Sgt said it was okay...
3. Tins of paint "to touch up the caravan with"....
4. Christmas Crackers - yes, it was the festive season and aren't the movers killjoys....
Once the mover receives a positive answer to the latter he sadly cannot 'turn a blind eye' as if he did the RAFP who are next in the chain would no doubt make an issue of it.
I did a course with British Airways a few years ago and their Senior Dangerous Cargo Instructor said his worst nightmare was of someone carrying a pot of 'Instant expanding foam' as used to seal leaks on yachts, the thought of it initiating in a lower hold is unimaginable.
Right guys, stupid rule concerning sharp implements on military aircraft so let's get it changed. ABIW, what kind of man are you Gladys? Go and start a campaign and see how far you get.
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Ah yes, the day is finally here when rodney and teaboy are complaining about airmen who not only know their jobs, but are not afraid to enforce the regs.(Airman dont you know who I am? )
I think the Valujet disaster is the only message we need ref DAC carriage.
Does anyone remember the photo of the confiscated Hexamine mountain at WID?
I remember the fight I had with OC rockapes at Wittering when he was caught trying to smuggle CS canisters on an Ex flt in his baggage.
The 'did you pack your bags?' question appeared after a terrorist conned his girlfriend into carrying his suitcase bomb after he did a runner at LHR - this was picked up by check-in and security staff.
Also the jumpseating Fedex FE? that attacked the crew on his flight with a hammer - attempted suicide, no less.
While loading a vent hold on a VC10 I picked up a bag that was red hot. Some pongo hadn't removed the batteries from his razor and it had somehow switched itself on.
The bag was about 10 mins away from starting a hold fire.
The fire service had an agreement with us at that time , we keep the fires on the ground and they will fight them.
Small things that seem insignificant have a habit of ballooning to great big things with big teeth that will bite you.
Even I remember those Flight Safety films that we were dragged to.
Not too many Officers or aircrew at those, if I remember correctly.
On ops and ex flights, weapons are usually collected and placed in bundles, the pax do not carry them on board.
The only time they carry them on board is when they will be needed at the destination, although things may have changed.
These regulations may not make sense to the great unwashed but the guys that enforce them know why.
Most have probably had at least one experience that justifies the enforcement of one reg that seemed pointless to them previously.
I think the Valujet disaster is the only message we need ref DAC carriage.
Does anyone remember the photo of the confiscated Hexamine mountain at WID?
I remember the fight I had with OC rockapes at Wittering when he was caught trying to smuggle CS canisters on an Ex flt in his baggage.
The 'did you pack your bags?' question appeared after a terrorist conned his girlfriend into carrying his suitcase bomb after he did a runner at LHR - this was picked up by check-in and security staff.
Also the jumpseating Fedex FE? that attacked the crew on his flight with a hammer - attempted suicide, no less.
While loading a vent hold on a VC10 I picked up a bag that was red hot. Some pongo hadn't removed the batteries from his razor and it had somehow switched itself on.
The bag was about 10 mins away from starting a hold fire.
The fire service had an agreement with us at that time , we keep the fires on the ground and they will fight them.
Small things that seem insignificant have a habit of ballooning to great big things with big teeth that will bite you.
Even I remember those Flight Safety films that we were dragged to.
Not too many Officers or aircrew at those, if I remember correctly.
On ops and ex flights, weapons are usually collected and placed in bundles, the pax do not carry them on board.
The only time they carry them on board is when they will be needed at the destination, although things may have changed.
These regulations may not make sense to the great unwashed but the guys that enforce them know why.
Most have probably had at least one experience that justifies the enforcement of one reg that seemed pointless to them previously.
You are confusing items which are clearly 'hazardous' as defined in the DAC manuals, and items which ATSY plod have decided might be used as weapons in their post 9/11 plod paranoia.
Hexamine falls into the former category, aircrew flying equipment falls into the latter.
What is needed is someone with the company neurone to act sensibly in order to stop the current stupidity.
No longer affects me personally though as I no longer wear a green bag with or without knife.........or horribly dangerous mini-maglite
. Can't use that, sir, it's not Han Happroved Tool. Neither is this pen, idiot!
Hexamine falls into the former category, aircrew flying equipment falls into the latter.
What is needed is someone with the company neurone to act sensibly in order to stop the current stupidity.
No longer affects me personally though as I no longer wear a green bag with or without knife.........or horribly dangerous mini-maglite
. Can't use that, sir, it's not Han Happroved Tool. Neither is this pen, idiot!
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Two things.
First,
I remember during one Gurkah move from Hong Kong to Kathmandu, seeing two guys sitting on the floor getting a brew on with their mess tins over a hexi stove !
Dangerous Air cargo, is just that.
By itself, the product or compund may be inert, but once in contact with another substance . . . .
Like the good old admin pack up.
Spare square batteries. On top would be the wire wool to make a nice circuit, next to that was the carbon paper and thinners for the dry wipe boards.
Second,
I must concur with Mr BEagle with regard to the current stupidity, with which the regulations are being enforced.
On a flight back from Dallas the other week, my old trusty Leatherman had to be either handed into the crew, or stowed in my hold luggage for the duration of the flight, but I was however allowed to keep on my person a BIC biro and a 50 pence piece !
Leatherman blade two and a half inches - BIC biro protruding through my knuckles and resting on the 50p in my palm, a good five and three quater inches.
Please someone sort this out.
First,
I remember during one Gurkah move from Hong Kong to Kathmandu, seeing two guys sitting on the floor getting a brew on with their mess tins over a hexi stove !
Dangerous Air cargo, is just that.
By itself, the product or compund may be inert, but once in contact with another substance . . . .
Like the good old admin pack up.
Spare square batteries. On top would be the wire wool to make a nice circuit, next to that was the carbon paper and thinners for the dry wipe boards.
Second,
I must concur with Mr BEagle with regard to the current stupidity, with which the regulations are being enforced.
On a flight back from Dallas the other week, my old trusty Leatherman had to be either handed into the crew, or stowed in my hold luggage for the duration of the flight, but I was however allowed to keep on my person a BIC biro and a 50 pence piece !
Leatherman blade two and a half inches - BIC biro protruding through my knuckles and resting on the 50p in my palm, a good five and three quater inches.
Please someone sort this out.
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18 Sep 2001 Air Canada flight to St Johns and then Goose Bay.
Can't take nail scissors in hand baggage as it could be used as an offensive weapon.
Meal served - no metal cutlery only plastic, same reason as above. Offered a drink wiht the meal - asked a red wine and given a small GLASS bottle which was left with me.
Can't take nail scissors in hand baggage as it could be used as an offensive weapon.
Meal served - no metal cutlery only plastic, same reason as above. Offered a drink wiht the meal - asked a red wine and given a small GLASS bottle which was left with me.
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Whislt I think Beag's has a valid point about changing things it seems, if we are to believe all the posts so far submitted it would obviously be too difficult.
We need to educate the travelling military "public" to accept the fact that entry into any RAF terminal instantly inccurs an enforced, and often extended period of "dick dancing"
which needs enduring until the aircraft doors finally close and normal service life resumes
The downside of this is the fact that, due to fuel carrying limitations along with galley and bog capacity the aircraft will eventually have to land and this will normally entail another round of the afore mentioned "cha cha" before emerging out through the sliding doors and back to the real world
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
it would obviously be too difficult.We need to educate the travelling military "public" to accept the fact that entry into any RAF terminal instantly inccurs an enforced, and often extended period of "dick dancing"
which needs enduring until the aircraft doors finally close and normal service life resumes The downside of this is the fact that, due to fuel carrying limitations along with galley and bog capacity
the aircraft will eventually have to land and this will normally entail another round of the afore mentioned "cha cha" before emerging out through the sliding doors and back to the real world all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 14th Oct 2003 at 05:12.