Movers v Loadies (Merged)
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Movers & Loadies
Gentlemen,
In deference to Muppet Leader whose "Loadies for the RSAF" has turned into a battleground I am starting this new topic so that all combatants can partake in a bit of sparring.
6N,
If you stop blowing your trumpet for a moment I will refresh your memory.
Prior to the ALM was the AQM and before that,up to the mid 1960's (as I recall) the role was carried out by NCO's from Trade Group 18 (Supply) on two or three year tours.
Running parallel to this, other members of the Supply trade were being trained as Movers.
However, whereas Loadmasters only had knowledge of one aircraft type, The Movers could work on multi type aircraft.
So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers.
It was only when the manning levels of NCO Suppliers got dangerously low that the Loadmaster trade was opened up to volunteers from Clerk Secretarial and Dog Handlers !!
In deference to Muppet Leader whose "Loadies for the RSAF" has turned into a battleground I am starting this new topic so that all combatants can partake in a bit of sparring.
6N,
If you stop blowing your trumpet for a moment I will refresh your memory.
Prior to the ALM was the AQM and before that,up to the mid 1960's (as I recall) the role was carried out by NCO's from Trade Group 18 (Supply) on two or three year tours.
Running parallel to this, other members of the Supply trade were being trained as Movers.
However, whereas Loadmasters only had knowledge of one aircraft type, The Movers could work on multi type aircraft.
So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers.
It was only when the manning levels of NCO Suppliers got dangerously low that the Loadmaster trade was opened up to volunteers from Clerk Secretarial and Dog Handlers !!
Last edited by Echo 5; 28th Aug 2003 at 19:04.
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Heard a rumour.
About 2/3 months back apparently, all ALM course members were informed that the Ministry of Defence would no longer designate them as `loadmasters` but some other generic name. The `new` name being a more generic type. The reason apparently is to allow for flexibility in allocating personnel to various aircrew functions. They are to say the least peed-off big time although they will retain Sgt rank and actually slightly higher pay as a result, they feel the badge is downgraded.
From 1st Apr 2003, RAF 'Airmen (Aircrew)' became known as 'Non-Commissioned Aircrew'. The new branch of Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) replaced all four trades (Air Electronics Operator, Air Engineer, Air Signaller and Air Loadmaster) and new graduates will be awarded a new 'Rear Crew' brevet. Air Electronics Officers and Navigators will now be known as Weapon System Officers (WSOs).
http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.c...e/nca_home.htm
What about the other new one, WSOb (Warming Systems Oven and Brew).
There is a difference from base movements to down route, or mobile movements.
C130.
Who plans the load?
Who builds the pallets?
Who loads the pallets?
Who loads the backbreaking 6-hour flat floor load?
Who trims the aircraft?
Who hands the completed airframe over, for someone in a growbag to say “Ooooh thank you. And by the way could you lash my suitcase down on the ramp, as I’ve got new gloves and I mustn’t get them dirty”.
And then you get down-route.
Who unloads the aircraft?
Who completes a role change from flat floor to 17c / 17f (and vice versa)
Who loads the aircraft?
And then gets the aircraft back in the air again in three hours (with a six man team –Officer, Sgt, Cpl and three airmen)?
Showing my age now, talking about BFPO666 in the early eighties.
Who manages an ERO of 42 tons of grain in Ethiopia, and gets a rubber-to-rubber time of 14 minutes?
Who wins ERO competitions for a vehicle and two trailers, in the States two years running (although gets disqualified for cheating 1st year) then competes in the assault course with the Regiment?
Now change aircraft type . . . . . . . .
VC10
Who kindly loads all the crew bags and their DFs after loading a full vent bag load in 120-degree heat? (And don’t mind too much that the cup of luke warm water offered by the Steward has got things floating in it, like dead sheep and canoeists!)(Where did the loadie get to?)
Who gets back to the hotel 7 hours after the front-end chaps, to find out that the Co left the imprest in the hotel safe 2500 miles away?
Who sorts it out by sweet-talking the local Embassy staff?
Now change aircraft type. . . . . . .
L1011
CH47
Puma
Belfast
C17
And so the story carries on.
About 2/3 months back apparently, all ALM course members were informed that the Ministry of Defence would no longer designate them as `loadmasters` but some other generic name. The `new` name being a more generic type. The reason apparently is to allow for flexibility in allocating personnel to various aircrew functions. They are to say the least peed-off big time although they will retain Sgt rank and actually slightly higher pay as a result, they feel the badge is downgraded.
From 1st Apr 2003, RAF 'Airmen (Aircrew)' became known as 'Non-Commissioned Aircrew'. The new branch of Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) replaced all four trades (Air Electronics Operator, Air Engineer, Air Signaller and Air Loadmaster) and new graduates will be awarded a new 'Rear Crew' brevet. Air Electronics Officers and Navigators will now be known as Weapon System Officers (WSOs).
http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.c...e/nca_home.htm
What about the other new one, WSOb (Warming Systems Oven and Brew).
There is a difference from base movements to down route, or mobile movements.
C130.
Who plans the load?
Who builds the pallets?
Who loads the pallets?
Who loads the backbreaking 6-hour flat floor load?
Who trims the aircraft?
Who hands the completed airframe over, for someone in a growbag to say “Ooooh thank you. And by the way could you lash my suitcase down on the ramp, as I’ve got new gloves and I mustn’t get them dirty”.
And then you get down-route.
Who unloads the aircraft?
Who completes a role change from flat floor to 17c / 17f (and vice versa)
Who loads the aircraft?
And then gets the aircraft back in the air again in three hours (with a six man team –Officer, Sgt, Cpl and three airmen)?
Showing my age now, talking about BFPO666 in the early eighties.
Who manages an ERO of 42 tons of grain in Ethiopia, and gets a rubber-to-rubber time of 14 minutes?
Who wins ERO competitions for a vehicle and two trailers, in the States two years running (although gets disqualified for cheating 1st year) then competes in the assault course with the Regiment?
Now change aircraft type . . . . . . . .
VC10
Who kindly loads all the crew bags and their DFs after loading a full vent bag load in 120-degree heat? (And don’t mind too much that the cup of luke warm water offered by the Steward has got things floating in it, like dead sheep and canoeists!)(Where did the loadie get to?)
Who gets back to the hotel 7 hours after the front-end chaps, to find out that the Co left the imprest in the hotel safe 2500 miles away?
Who sorts it out by sweet-talking the local Embassy staff?
Now change aircraft type. . . . . . .
L1011
CH47
Puma
Belfast
C17
And so the story carries on.
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Who's smart enough to get someone else to load, trim, re-role the a/c for them whilst they are eating thier inflight meal / getting thier DF's, keeping thier gloves clean? Yet they are trained to do all these jobs and supervise the muppets and get paid more for it!.
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Ive loaded a Puma, several times in fact.
But then I am Aircrew and movers are not!!
I do suspect there is an escaped Troll on PP at the moment. Good hunting you loadies!
But then I am Aircrew and movers are not!!
I do suspect there is an escaped Troll on PP at the moment. Good hunting you loadies!
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I know I'm a bit long in the tooth,
But there once was a unit by the name of JHSU.
I joined at its' inception.
Only Pumas.
Oh dear, is that all.
What about the Super Puma, Gazelle, Wessex, Chinnook,
And then what about the various types of former Eastern Bloc rotaries that I handled in places like Ethiopia, South Africa, Beruit, and so forth. So many I can't remember all their designations
So you're only qualified in the one then?
But there once was a unit by the name of JHSU.
I joined at its' inception.
Only Pumas.
Oh dear, is that all.
What about the Super Puma, Gazelle, Wessex, Chinnook,
And then what about the various types of former Eastern Bloc rotaries that I handled in places like Ethiopia, South Africa, Beruit, and so forth. So many I can't remember all their designations
So you're only qualified in the one then?
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E number,
"So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers".
OK clever dickey got any of your baldricks on 43K....................................thought not, whose smart now ok
ML,
Too many who's
Maybe you should have done better at school, but whatever sod off and do the course, if your good enough get the badge, then come back and tell us all about it.
all spelling mistakes are "df"alcohol induced
"So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers".
OK clever dickey got any of your baldricks on 43K....................................thought not, whose smart now ok
ML,
Too many who's
Maybe you should have done better at school, but whatever sod off and do the course, if your good enough get the badge, then come back and tell us all about it.all spelling mistakes are "df"alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 23rd Aug 2003 at 16:38.
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ML,
As a civie your input is welcome, however I somewhat doubt the integrity of your last post. but rest assured I will be off to Thomas Cook on monday to see if there are any tickets left for trips to your ideal world.
Stop press ........"Bagage handlers on sh@t loads" In your dreams
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
As a civie your input is welcome,
however I somewhat doubt the integrity of your last post. but rest assured I will be off to Thomas Cook on monday to see if there are any tickets left for trips to your ideal world.Stop press ........"Bagage handlers on sh@t loads" In your dreams
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Okay, I was an oggie, but I spent the best part of 4 years of my service working as a Mover pretty much full time, including lots of MAMS tasking. I had been a civvy loadmaster prior to that.
Muppet Leaders post about the inception of JHSU reminded me of a chat with a few of my ex Sqdn colleagues who were there at the start as well. The story went that the Army and RAF decided to combine for helo ops. The RAF selected the best and fittest Movers they had. The army selected the best and fittest logistics guys they had. When they finally amalgamated together for the basic course, the RAF guys had to take time out while the 'brown jobs' had to spend much time and effort to even get close to the Movers fitness and ability.
I am sure ML will confirm or deny, but thats how I heard it. 'Nuff said about a Movers ability for me.........
Muppet Leaders post about the inception of JHSU reminded me of a chat with a few of my ex Sqdn colleagues who were there at the start as well. The story went that the Army and RAF decided to combine for helo ops. The RAF selected the best and fittest Movers they had. The army selected the best and fittest logistics guys they had. When they finally amalgamated together for the basic course, the RAF guys had to take time out while the 'brown jobs' had to spend much time and effort to even get close to the Movers fitness and ability.
I am sure ML will confirm or deny, but thats how I heard it. 'Nuff said about a Movers ability for me.........
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ML
Following your layout:
So who sleeps down the back of the aircraft for 8 hours at a time?
So who claims crew pay for not working in the air - actually sleeping? Nice bit of staffing and Empire building though.
Who sends a 6 man team on 'nice trips' knowing that the team will be scratching around for jobs to do?
So who are the biggest poseurs at airshows in flying suits? Surely the Mkwhatever flying suit cannot be the best clothing to carry big boxes in?
So who lurks on Military Aircrew sites when ground sites would be more appropriate?
So who loads/trims the C130 for TS roles - believe it or not the aircraft is tactical. The aircraft has spent a large portion of its existence without a mover in sight doing para, AE, MSPs, RIB, etc,etc not to mention AAR, fighter affil, etc. Maybe its because the ALM trims the aircraft pre-flight for the sortie and also calculates the trim that will occur when the first and then the second MSP have departed without the benefit of sleeping ballast aft of the wheel -well.
I have to admit I have never seen a bunch of movers get an aircraft back in the air - unless you know differently? Did not know you could reach the throttles from aft of the paradoors!
Following your layout:
So who sleeps down the back of the aircraft for 8 hours at a time?
So who claims crew pay for not working in the air - actually sleeping? Nice bit of staffing and Empire building though.
Who sends a 6 man team on 'nice trips' knowing that the team will be scratching around for jobs to do?
So who are the biggest poseurs at airshows in flying suits? Surely the Mkwhatever flying suit cannot be the best clothing to carry big boxes in?
So who lurks on Military Aircrew sites when ground sites would be more appropriate?
So who loads/trims the C130 for TS roles - believe it or not the aircraft is tactical. The aircraft has spent a large portion of its existence without a mover in sight doing para, AE, MSPs, RIB, etc,etc not to mention AAR, fighter affil, etc. Maybe its because the ALM trims the aircraft pre-flight for the sortie and also calculates the trim that will occur when the first and then the second MSP have departed without the benefit of sleeping ballast aft of the wheel -well.
I have to admit I have never seen a bunch of movers get an aircraft back in the air - unless you know differently? Did not know you could reach the throttles from aft of the paradoors!
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FMT
Nice to see you're getting excited! Why is there a bunk bed on the flight deck and are you saying it's never used? The ground eng's also claim the crew pay and don't work in the air. On nice trips it is Group policy to task a MAMS team just in case the aircraft gets re-tasked as happened a couple of years ago for the Montserrat Volcano and Hurricane relief. A nice swan turned into a month of shuttles between the islands. The movers very rarely wear the Mk14 Nomex Loading Suit these days as a previous OC thought he would save the RAF some money and make them dress as pongos instead! Shame the GEs, Aeromed. ATSy etc didn't follow suit. Doing TS trims is not black magic - remember they used the same procedure for the PLR Airbridge tasks Ascension to the Falklands for years..... they can even work out the tipping index on the reverse of the trim, aren't they clever.
ABIW
Bit ill informed re-Laarbruch! The i/c JHSU was an Army Captain and the 2i/c was a real RAF WO. Methinks you're confusing the Motleys (MAOTs) with the real management. True they haven't got one back in the air yet although I manage quite well on my Microsoft version. However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United. Until he recently moved to Spain the Chief Glider Pilot at Lasham was also an ex-muppet. Not to worry though as I still like you - you make a brill cup of tea.
Nice to see you're getting excited! Why is there a bunk bed on the flight deck and are you saying it's never used? The ground eng's also claim the crew pay and don't work in the air. On nice trips it is Group policy to task a MAMS team just in case the aircraft gets re-tasked as happened a couple of years ago for the Montserrat Volcano and Hurricane relief. A nice swan turned into a month of shuttles between the islands. The movers very rarely wear the Mk14 Nomex Loading Suit these days as a previous OC thought he would save the RAF some money and make them dress as pongos instead! Shame the GEs, Aeromed. ATSy etc didn't follow suit. Doing TS trims is not black magic - remember they used the same procedure for the PLR Airbridge tasks Ascension to the Falklands for years..... they can even work out the tipping index on the reverse of the trim, aren't they clever.
ABIW
Bit ill informed re-Laarbruch! The i/c JHSU was an Army Captain and the 2i/c was a real RAF WO. Methinks you're confusing the Motleys (MAOTs) with the real management. True they haven't got one back in the air yet although I manage quite well on my Microsoft version. However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United. Until he recently moved to Spain the Chief Glider Pilot at Lasham was also an ex-muppet. Not to worry though as I still like you - you make a brill cup of tea.
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B875,
You are correct, as my recolection of Laarparts was somewhat clouded by some very nice ice cold "df" liquid. But I do take umbridge with the following:-
"However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United"
Just a thought but if it's that great out there why the fu@k are you still in
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
You are correct, as my recolection of Laarparts was somewhat clouded by some very nice ice cold "df" liquid. But I do take umbridge with the following:-
"However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United"
Just a thought but if it's that great out there why the fu@k are you still in
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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This is the first time I have posted on PP but I felt I had to
As a Ex Mover and a current ALM I feel I can justify my post.
1. ALM's do not just do catering. In fact there are some that dont do any. If catering is the reason people are not applying for aircrew, then can can they stop posting on this AIRCREW FORUM.
If you feel you can do it better then apply and prove it if not shut up. I did it so its not that hard.
2, Some movers like to talk about how they can do the job better. But talk about in depth regulations, Tech and Gen and emergancy proceedures and CATERING
they go all quiet.
3. Movers dont always plan, build and load the aircraft with a completed trim. Infact I can't remember the last time I was given a trim down route.
4, ML, Its not hard to load a PUMA so please dont tell us how hard it is. It is a lot harder to rig a underslung load though. Is that what you are talking about???
5, ALM's dont know every thing, not this one anyway. They are not the font of all knowledge. I am definitely not; but I do not ever, ever, ever blame the other shift.
7, Yes aircrew do whine like a servicable J engine
All spelling mistakes are because I can't spell.
As a Ex Mover and a current ALM I feel I can justify my post.
1. ALM's do not just do catering. In fact there are some that dont do any. If catering is the reason people are not applying for aircrew, then can can they stop posting on this AIRCREW FORUM.
If you feel you can do it better then apply and prove it if not shut up. I did it so its not that hard.
2, Some movers like to talk about how they can do the job better. But talk about in depth regulations, Tech and Gen and emergancy proceedures and CATERING
they go all quiet. 3. Movers dont always plan, build and load the aircraft with a completed trim. Infact I can't remember the last time I was given a trim down route.
4, ML, Its not hard to load a PUMA so please dont tell us how hard it is. It is a lot harder to rig a underslung load though. Is that what you are talking about???
5, ALM's dont know every thing, not this one anyway. They are not the font of all knowledge. I am definitely not; but I do not ever, ever, ever blame the other shift.
7, Yes aircrew do whine like a servicable J engine
All spelling mistakes are because I can't spell.
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ABIW
There you go again - on about alcohol. Really sad.I hope your boss doesn't suss out who you are else you'll be into the drying out clinic minus brevet.
Blakey875.
Yes I remember well having to complete the remaining sorties due to the Loadmaster being injured.I think the story may be worth telling.
A 3 ton truck was being loaded onto the aircraft when it snagged the paratroop jump step which was stowed in the top of the fuselage and secured with lashing tape.
The Loadmaster was actually present while the graft was going on and he asked one of the other (flying) crew members to go up and cut the tape.
Now, nobody knew what was going through the Loadie's mind but any child will tell you that when an object is released from any height it will drop.
As the Movers watched on somewhat bemused the tape was cut, the inevitable happened,and the result was the Loadie received a severly gashed and fractured leg,a bruised ego, and an in depth
introduction to Terminal Velocity. On the positive side I got back to base several hours before the rest of the team.
ABIW (again).
I am SO sorry but when you said 43K I thought you meant KNOTS but you really meant MONEY.
Well yes - I am lucky enough to earn that type of salary,and I have a paid up house in UK, and I have an apartment in Cyprus.
And you know what, when I'm lying on my sun bed at Curium Bay and I see Albert fly over I think to myself " I bet he's carrying at least 200 pounds of excess baggage.
TAC Queen,
Were you really an ex Mover? I thought TAC Queen would have been more appropriate for someone on the Cabin Crew Forum.
I bet your SAMO gave you a glowing report when you went skipping off to aircrew selection. I suppose you must have found 95 % of the training pretty easy what with your Movements background. Coming up with something a bit more adventurous than NATO Standard tea or coffee was probably a bit more difficult eh.
Anyway back to your post. Check out Para1 particularly the last sentence. OWN GOAL or what!!
While you are at it go back to the menu and read what it says under the heading "Military Aircrew". Yes that's right, the forum isn't just for those in grow bags is it?
There you go again - on about alcohol. Really sad.I hope your boss doesn't suss out who you are else you'll be into the drying out clinic minus brevet.
Blakey875.
Yes I remember well having to complete the remaining sorties due to the Loadmaster being injured.I think the story may be worth telling.
A 3 ton truck was being loaded onto the aircraft when it snagged the paratroop jump step which was stowed in the top of the fuselage and secured with lashing tape.
The Loadmaster was actually present while the graft was going on and he asked one of the other (flying) crew members to go up and cut the tape.
Now, nobody knew what was going through the Loadie's mind but any child will tell you that when an object is released from any height it will drop.
As the Movers watched on somewhat bemused the tape was cut, the inevitable happened,and the result was the Loadie received a severly gashed and fractured leg,a bruised ego, and an in depth
introduction to Terminal Velocity. On the positive side I got back to base several hours before the rest of the team.
ABIW (again).
I am SO sorry but when you said 43K I thought you meant KNOTS but you really meant MONEY.
Well yes - I am lucky enough to earn that type of salary,and I have a paid up house in UK, and I have an apartment in Cyprus.
And you know what, when I'm lying on my sun bed at Curium Bay and I see Albert fly over I think to myself " I bet he's carrying at least 200 pounds of excess baggage.
TAC Queen,
Were you really an ex Mover? I thought TAC Queen would have been more appropriate for someone on the Cabin Crew Forum.
I bet your SAMO gave you a glowing report when you went skipping off to aircrew selection. I suppose you must have found 95 % of the training pretty easy what with your Movements background. Coming up with something a bit more adventurous than NATO Standard tea or coffee was probably a bit more difficult eh.
Anyway back to your post. Check out Para1 particularly the last sentence. OWN GOAL or what!!
While you are at it go back to the menu and read what it says under the heading "Military Aircrew". Yes that's right, the forum isn't just for those in grow bags is it?
Last edited by Echo 5; 23rd Aug 2003 at 21:36.
Gentlemen, please. This site shouldn't descend into a LYN slagging match. Every one in the RAF/Army is an integral part of the system that helps to get the equipment from A to B. This squabble shows the viewing civil populus that we are nothing more than a bunch of up-tight pompus tw@ts who can't get on with each other. I work daily with both ALM's and Movers. Each and every one to their own is what I say. If Movers are so narked by the whole aircrew thang then why not shut up whinging and go for Aircrew selection? Both Loadie's and movers work very hard and when they are not busy they can play hard to.
There are too many people in the forces that are fazed by rank and seem to have an infieriority complex. You know that when you join the forces there will always be people above you and to give you orders. You accept it. It this starts to bother you then maybe you are now too long in the tooth and would be better served by getting out and being a Civie. FAR too many 'Blue-jobs' get above their station all the time, believing themselves to be the person in complte charge. Too much empire building. Not enough team work!!
The movers have always wanted our job (B2 hangar) but as long as we keep doing the job with half the manpower and twice the productivity and 1/8th of the moaning, we shall prevail.
Personally I believe the biggest waste of RAF cash to be the PJI's who swan around the world just to shout "go!....go!.......go!...." and look good(well so they think!!). Next time you are down route and unoading the kite, have a good look for the PJI. You will find him making excuses not to help and getting others to offload their baggage for them. Wasters....rant over.
There are too many people in the forces that are fazed by rank and seem to have an infieriority complex. You know that when you join the forces there will always be people above you and to give you orders. You accept it. It this starts to bother you then maybe you are now too long in the tooth and would be better served by getting out and being a Civie. FAR too many 'Blue-jobs' get above their station all the time, believing themselves to be the person in complte charge. Too much empire building. Not enough team work!!
The movers have always wanted our job (B2 hangar) but as long as we keep doing the job with half the manpower and twice the productivity and 1/8th of the moaning, we shall prevail.
Personally I believe the biggest waste of RAF cash to be the PJI's who swan around the world just to shout "go!....go!.......go!...." and look good(well so they think!!). Next time you are down route and unoading the kite, have a good look for the PJI. You will find him making excuses not to help and getting others to offload their baggage for them. Wasters....rant over.
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Well Movers and ALM, this forum just shows what important lifes you all lead: you must be rushed off your feet !
Slagging each other off never won any war , work with each other and compliment one anothers abilities. Take a look at JHSU and the rotary world , an excelent team working together towards a common goal.
Get a life will you !
Any spelling errors are cos i cant be arsed
Slagging each other off never won any war , work with each other and compliment one anothers abilities. Take a look at JHSU and the rotary world , an excelent team working together towards a common goal.
Get a life will you !
Any spelling errors are cos i cant be arsed