Nice
 

Such a sweet analogy Taras B .. I hope my flying aptitude will be as good as my skill on the Piano :cool: btw, I also love "Quasi una fantasia" especially the 3rd movement :ok:

Only FI's and Piano Teachers Will Understand...
 

Hi Guys!!

Well, I wrote to Martin from the sales department of Alpha aviation group. He replied me saying that it is GUARANTEED that we will complete 1,500 Total time with Air Arabia. I'm very suspicious about that, so I wrote him back and asked to send me a copy of contract that we will sign with Alpha aviation group. Is anyone going to do the assessment?

future-pilot you will get the contract and face to face interview with Air Arabia so if you complete your course successfully you will get 1500 on A320 :ok:

I will receive the contract in a few days by Martin. If it is stated that we will complete 1,500 hours with Air Arabia, I will think about joining alpha aviation UAE.

Do you get paid while building the 1500 hours on the A320 with Air Arabia ?

yes, u do get the 1500 hours and u do get paid while u do it.

But, u can still be fired after u do the 1500 hours for whatever reason. It may be even because Air Arabia has too many MPL pilots. It will happen at some point. If that happens the license u hold is 100% useless. No airline will even look at u.

Are you sure about that? Heard that once you have 1500 hours you also get an ATPL since you already passed the subjects. Also Alpha says on their FAQ:

'With an MPL license you only need to acquire 1.500 hours of flying experience to turn your license in to a worldwide recognized Full ATPL license. There are no additional exams or test required for the conversion.'


Can anyone say what kind of flying is expected during the 70 hours SE? and do previous hours or PPL count towards this requirement?

MPL to ATPL conversion
 

That's what the told me also ..
Once we've completed the 1500hrs, if Air Arabia wants us to stay, we can stay but if not or we choose not to stay, then we can convert the license into ATPL without any hassle (perhaps only some conversion exams) then apply to our desired airline ;) ..
But I've never seen the contract copy though ..
I must ask them to send me one as well ..

G Full Cyrilroy Future Pilot
Please go through this thread and read carefully before making this vital decision. There is high ratio of entrenchments and you could me one of them. Do not even trust their entrance assessment since they take you even if you have low scores and lack the ability to become a pilot and later entrench you while you lose all your money. It has happened before and will continue to happen. Think twice before joining this flying school.

OK here is the problem when converting an MPL with 1500 hours to a full ATPL it might be possible BUT I doubt you will have the skill requirements according to the 'traditional' GCAA ATPL which follows ICAO guidelines and airlines worldwide will raise an eyebrow to this

All of your time is co-pilot (at least a huge chunk of it) you need at least 250 hours of PIC time in order to get a full ATPL - This is pretty difficult considering ABY does not offer PIC under supervision (I know very few airlines that actually do it)


Theses are the Requirments as per the traditional ATPL :

The applicant shall have completed in aeroplanes not less than 250 hours, either as pilot-in-command, or made up by not less than 100 hours as pilot- in-command and the necessary additional flight time as co-pilot performing under the supervision of a pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command, providing the method of supervision employed is satisfactory to the GCAA.

(c) The applicant shall have completed not less than 1500 hours of flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes, including at least-
(1) 500 hours as pilot-in-command under supervision or 250 hours, either as pilot-in-command, or made up by not less than 70 hours as pilot-in- command and the necessary additional flight time as pilot-in- command under supervision;
(2) 200 hours of cross-country flight time, of which not less than 100 hours shall be as pilot-in-command or as pilot-in-command under supervision;
(3) 100 hours of night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot; and
(4) 75 hours of actual or simulated instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time.

ABY does not offer PIC(US)?????? Am I missing something here???? Tons of FOs have upgraded to ATPL in ABY....couple of them only had 200 hrs on pistons!
????????

@google

Im not sure what there policy. It would be interesting to see what their operations manual says. Although I know many airlines are reluctant to offer PIC Under Supervision.

Nonetheless they are certainly not going to give it to you during your first 1500 hours of MPL training. Therefore you will not have the requirements to convert your license under ICAO.

On the flip side 1500 hours of Airbus time is golden and the laws world over are changing. So there are risks but this is the fastest way of getting jet time with a reputable airline.

I've done the COMPASS tests before and I had very high scores. My problem is, what can I do once Air Arabia change their mind and don't hire MPL students. Can I build hours in order to achive 1,500 hours in order to get the ATPL?

@psvspnf...totally not true man!!!! Even a fresh cadet when he/she completes the line training and passes the final line check AND operates as PF in a particular sector log pic(us) ..or shall I say can consider 50% of his hrs as pic (only towards issue of ATPL) its possible and being done in ABY!

Moveover, all airlines I worked with had no issues giving pic under supervision time...wonder why you say they are reluctant :rolleyes: :ooh:

I am not sure if Arabia is giving 1500 hrs though....I had heard 750...but if they really are, with 1500 on A320 and an ATPL, there's nothing stopping you!

Cheers

answer is NO.

Why? Because MPL is different from ATPL.

You cannot even join another airline. For example lets say u did 500 hours with Air Arabia and then they leave u. You then go to say Emirate since they are offering MPL spots. They will never accept you. This is because u have been trained the Air Arabia way. They will have to waste money training u in their way. They much rather take a new student and train him for scratch.

Even now i have no flying hours in the A320 and I wanted to leave Alpha. At the end i could not. Why? Because the flight school I spoke to did not accept my ground school results or most of my flying. So if i wanted to join their school I would have to start from scratch. That is a waste of money and time.

Imagine now if u did all the training and joined the A320 and they asked u to do all from scratch. You just cannot go and do the ATPL exams even though u have the MPL results as proof. U need to resit the whole course to rebuild the ground school hours to get the ATPL license.

If u really want to go train as a pilot and you think u will make a good one the please get the EASA license. Once u have that u will not face many problems. Yes, it will be hard to get the inital job and you will properly need to fly in a cargo plane or bush flying in Africa but u are building hours and eventually u will get the ATPL license with no problems

On the other hand read a few posts back. I mentioned an airline that offers from MPL training. Then again it is only for British students but still it shows that there are airlines who pay for it. Why? Because it is risky

Honestpilot....what happens once u get 1500+ hours????

As an FO you cannot log PIC as you are not the commander you are CM2. Right seat time is only logged as P2 even if you are PF.

Well if u fly well in those 1500 hours Air Arabia will hire u a first officer IF they have places. With the number of students at Alpha now I do not think everyone will be offered a job?!

If u do not fly well you will be asked to leave. I am not sure if u will get an ATPL. I still think u will need to do the ATPL ground school again atleast. Those 2 licenses are very different

Then again when i asked alpha the question above they always said that i will face never face problems They said that I can go to any flying school and they will take my results if anyone wanted to leave. I did that to check if they are honest and no they were not! So i no longer believe anything Alpha says!

@google

From my experience PF can not and is not the same as PIC. There are exceptions to this rule depending on where in the world you go. I dont know of any in the UAE.

Is the 50% rule in the GCAA Civil Aviation Regulations? Could you please quote me the CAR? - I couldn't find anything about it in the Personal Licensing System.

It would also be great to hear from cadets who have done the program and find out how they have been told to log their hours. (Co-pilot or PIC)


Thanks

@ honestpilot...no need to do another ground school. I am from old school of thought and would still prefer to go via the conventional route of CPL/IR...however this is one of the good sides of MPL..it's is basically a frozen ATP (as per the carops). If you go to alpha they should be able to give you the ref...in the mean time let me see if I can dig out from my old documentation. I had done a comparative study between MPL/CPL and had gone thru the entire MPL regs...you will however have to do a skill-test (check ride) once you have the required hours....

@ pfpnf and vfenext...obviously u cannot log PIC! But can log PIC(US) I.e under supervision...these hours are counted towards requirements for the issue of higher grade of license...From the GCAA licensing part II below:

2.1.10 Crediting of Flight Time

2.1.10.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual instruction and pilot in command flight time towards the total flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.10.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, he/she shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.10.3 The holder of a pilot licence when acting as co-pilot performing under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the functions and duties of a pilot-in-command, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.


Hope this helps...cheers

The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, he/she shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

This is common in most ICAO countries but this does not mean that if you are PF you will be given 50% of the time as PIC. 50% of the time will count towards your ATPL. Co-pilot time PF or PNF is 50% that counts towards the ATPL. Total Time remains the same.

You have to be under supervision. I would really like to know from people here if ABY offers it. If you are not PIC under supervision you cannot log this towards the ATPL even if you are PF.

I know it's being done at ABY...just don't know the exact logistics...maybe the new FOs can throw some light....Marlim/etc where are you?????

The questions and concerns regarding MPL to ATPL are and have been approached numerous of times. As much as anyone can copy paste extracts from the CAR's or ICAO regulations it all comes down to interpretation of the law.
To justify this is the current situation not only in the UAE but also in the Philippines. Like myself, there are many MPL First officers, in both countries, who have reached more than 1500 hours logged in. And at this moment neither ATO has authorized a MPL conversion into an ATPL.
It becomes fruitless everyone here giving their opinion, even when its based on the CAR's because people in the right positions in their countries ATO, have and are discussing this matter.
I am happy this topic was approached because it seems to be another miss presentation on Alpha Aviation Group's FAQ part on their website to lure those with flying aspirations.

G-FULL
As much as everyone here will copy/paste definitions from the CAR's to either justify their point of view or give reason to what they are trying to say. The fact of the matter is that, like myself, no one with more than 1500 hours logged on the A320 have been able to convert to an ATPL.
Please take this information into consideration as you pursue your carrier as a pilot. I do wish you the best of success.

stormiscoming .. have you logged 1500 hrs on A320 under the MPL ?

Any regulator who has issued you the MPL will issue you the ATPL once you complete all the published requirements for the ATPL. When a country accepted the ICAO MPL; the regulator will recognise all hours flown under the MPL. GCAA & CAAP will do the same.
Hence you should have no issue ins converting your MPL to a standard ATPL once you have met the requirements.:ok:

To answer your question nicely, Yes.
Not only have I logged a lot more then 1500 hours on type A320, so has many of my other colleagues in the various airlines in the Philippines. And from my knowledge so have the cadets that went to Air Arabia from Clark Av.

To answer the same question bluntly, Yes dear, why you would ask such a stupid question is beyond my comprehension since its clearly stated that, not only myself but many others have a MPL with more than 1500 hours.

Again one must ask the big question to you. Just how much do you know of what you are marketing. It is clear to everyone here for awhile now, that your knowledge is limited to what AAG tells you, and that you understand AAG past the way they want you to know. And that's fine with us, no one can blame you for what you know have been told and what in fact is the truth.

Advice has been given to you by many to stick to the marketing side, which is what you get paid to do in any case. No one will throw a stone at someone who does a good honest job.
So again, stick to posting facebook links and what not but don't talk about things you have no idea about. If you have any doubts on an issue, check, verify and check again before posting.

@storm

That clears up a lot. Did they give you PIC under supervision? From my understanding it is not done.

How much PIC total time do you have? Is that the reason for the delay?

k so now you are basically saying that storm and his colleagues are lying?

To get an ATPL u need a CPL. Not the same as an MPL

Essentially, the MPL is not a portable license, and was never intended to be.

And if what ua re saying is true please show us PROOF.

Something which you fail at every time!

bliss
 

No Strato, the only ignorant here is you and it seems you have no problems in telling the world that your one, with the type of "factual" posts you write.

You are the spitting example of when people say "IGNORANCE IS BLISS".

You and Alpha Aviation Group have the same professional and operating standards and so neither of you belong in the aviation business.... [quoteJust pop along to your licensing authority, fill in the correct paperwork and Bob's your uncle][/quote] In the real World there are rules, regulations and Laws that everyone has to abide by and follow.
Its the same "Bob's your uncle" attitude, the whole reason why AAG has the mess they have right now.
And NO again strato, no one will also forget the "EMOTIVE" side of the :mad: that AAG has and still causes. Flying is a carrier as it is a passion for all of us and having a company like ALPHA AVIATON GROUP mess with the dreams of people just for a "buck" with a "Bob's your uncle" professional standard, is a sin.

PICUS Hours
 

Hi Guys, just to clarify things about MPL/ATPL conversion & the way we ABY FOs Log our hours...

A GCAA MPL can be upgraded/changed to ATPL Provided you meat the following:
- Completed ATPL Ground School/GCAA exams
- Total of 1500 hours of flight time of which:
1. Only a Max of 100 hours of Sim time can be considered (proper licensed Sim)
2. Minimum of 500 Hours of PIC or PIC(US) time
3. Certain Number of Minimum Cross-Countries to do (Not Applicable to us)...since we are Cross-Country(s) flyers
4. Some night time as PF or PNF doesn't matter
- ATPL Check (can be done on a real aircraft or Sim...usually Sim) done by ANY certified GCAA examiner...usually FOs here do it when they go for their PPCs (Pilot Proficiency Check) that is done twice a year as usual...

That is as far as I know about the requirements for ATPL


Going to the Logbook Part:

Whenever I am the PF, I log the hours in the PIC column, then write in the remarks on the far right side "PICUS" and ask the Captain to sign for me just beside it with his ATPL License number...this was an email from the GCAA inspector to us, the email included the 500 hour requirement aswell :ok:

GCAA has also lowered the required number of base training for all future AAG MPL cadets .. 9 TO and LNDG from the earlier requirement of 12 TO/LNDG.

This is after regular reports complied by ABY training team to GCAA to prove the flying capability of MPL cadets.:ok: :D

Another sign MPL is fast gaining more acceptance.

Fleet | Air Arabia

given the expansion plans more MPL cadets will be needed.

Thanks marlim,

So it looks like they are letting you log PIC Under Supervision.

If someone could post the relevant CAR or Advisory circular regarding MPL. That would be great.

I agree with this 100%. The students from the previous batch all told me that the number of T/O and Landings are not confirmed. Apparently there was a meeting with one of the officers from Air Arabia. He apparently told the students that they will change their programmes to suit the quality of the MPL programme

GCAA shares e-licensing experience with Bahraini counterpart | GCAA | AMEinfo.com

The General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA), represented by Licensing Department, received a delegation from the Kingdome of Bahrain Civil Aviation Affairs. The delegation headed by Eng. Adel Al Sabah, Chief Aviation Permits and licensing, was received by Captain Khalid Humaid Al Ali, Director of Licensing at GCAA, along with several representations from aeromedical section and E-licensing team.



The visit took place in GCAA's Regional Office in Dubai last week.

The visit comes in line with GCAA and Bahraini Civil Aviation Affairs' efforts exchange experience and expertise about license, and specifically in the e-licensing service launched by GCAA last months.

"E-Licensing service reflects the framework of the UAE Government aiming at developing electronic services across all governmental sectors," expressed Captain Al Ali, Director of Licensing at GCAA.

"Implementing E-licensing would save a lot of time for pilots, engineers and others working in the aviation sector and we are glad to share our experience with other states in the GCC region." Al Ali added.

An official visit to Alpha Aviation Academy took place where both delegates were received by the Academy Quality Manager and Head of Training.
A prolonged brief and representation of the Academy activities have been discussed with a focus on the Multi-Crew Pilot License (MPL) Program as one of the promising programs in the aviation sector.

GCAA's Licensing department issued during last month alone 1,163 license varied between Cabin Crew, Air Traffic Controller, and aeromedical licensing.

MPL
 

Guys, I can read in other people's posts that MPL's quality & outcome is not good or not upto the standard or not trust worthy...etc. :eek:

My friends & I (guys who made it through line training & who are still doing it from the other batches) would say something else, I am 100% sure if I wasn't upto the standards ABY wouldn't pass me in the line training & let me become the SECOND in Command, so please give me & Air Arabia a break here...want to go after AAG, it is a COMPLETELY different story...but kep in-mind that ABY's feedback & our feedback is present & a lot has changed to make it more practical (unlike a normal abinitio CPL training) :ok:

Almost every single Captain doesn't care whether I am MPL or CPL (alotough very very few did & I personally changed their opinion as well as my friends, especially from Top of Descent to approach & landing), as long as I have the 3 stripes NOBODY cares, some of them would be interested in "since when I joined the Company" and if anybody from my family is with ABY...etc. normal colleague to colleague discussion...

@ pfvspnf, no wories...my pleasure ^_^ I will try to find something regarding it, but as far as GCAA MPL is concerned, we are following the PIC(US) recording procedure that the GCAA told us about (what I mentioned in my latest post) :ok:

FYI, CAAP MPL holders who came into UAE & are now with ABY, are currently under the process, I will ask them & get back to you about the LIVE conversion process, I guess being a previous CAAP license holder would need some more work...just a guess though...brb ;)

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marlim none of us are saying anything bad about Air Arabia or ur flying skills!

Infact tarasb praised Air Arabia!

What we are saying is that it maybe difficult to change MPL into ATPL. After all ATPL is slightly harder and more time consuming!

When i searched the net I got negative feedback which did not exactly please me! :(

I've been all through the GCAA website and there is nothing about the conversion of MPL into a Full ATPL but I will give them the benefit of the doubt because their website CAAP/CAR's have not been updated since 2010. I have sent an official letter to the GCAA in order to query about the conversion and will let you guys know what's the outcome.

In contrast, I contacted AAG and this is exactly what they said

and

Let's see what the GCAA will answer.

GFULL

if what AAg says is true then here is some info for you.

I planned to leave AAG after i had completed my ground school exams. I went to a few of the flying school across the middle east and they all asked me to redo the ground school exams. To make matters worse I had to resit the whole of the ground school hours!?

Why? Because I was doing the MPL.

If it is so easy to convert then why is it that i had such difficulty. I provided them with proof that I passed all my exams. Yet, they showed no interest.

If an MPL can be converted when u do the 1500 hours then sure;y u can convert the exams. Same books and same exams after all.

My opinion on the MPL program

1. From my limited knowledge of the MPL program it contains more simulator hours on a full flight simulator ( take the A320 for eg ) before the candidates are sent for line training on the actual aircraft . I believe this is in excess of 100 hours on an FFS
Am I right ?

2. Compare that to a regular low hour CPL holder who receives on average 34-50 hours on average on the Full Flight Simulator before being released to the actual aircraft for flying duties . These hours are the bare minimum required to be qualified on the said aircraft type .

Comparing the above two an MPL holder will naturally perform better in flying a multi crew aircraft due to the higher number of hours in the full motion sim than your average low hour CPL holder

How many agree with me in the above said point ?

An MPL holder will have more time to fiddle around in the sim , make mistakes , learn from them....... than a bare CPL holder who has to use the limited amount of SIM time to learn as much as they can learn .

Why the limited amount of SIM time for a bare CPL holder ?

Money ofcourse .

It costs a lot money to train someone in excess of 100 hours on a Full Flight Sim . Something the airlines have been avoiding all this while even though they knew from before that it takes a lot more than the bare minimum to teach someone to properly fly a Multi Crew Jet Engined Aircraft .

Now that the MPL program has come up airlines can easily pass this cost on to the candidate .

I believe that for the MPL program to survive airlines in the future will have to bear the cost or a part of the cost of training as there are only a hand full of people who will be able to pay the cost of an MPL program . If they dont pay for it , it will lead to a pilot shortage .


Cyril Roy