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EK 25/3 Pilot forum Agenda .pdf

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK 25/3 Pilot forum Agenda .pdf

Old 12th Mar 2018, 23:43
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: lost
Posts: 86
I can only wish you the Best outcome, for everyone who are still there. Inshallah !
desertcamel is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 03:06
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by The Turtle View Post
64 posts about 2 women flying and only 43 about your professional career speaks for itself....

Focus, gentlemen!
... and ladies
zero/zero is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 05:09
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingston upon Thames
Posts: 79
my 2 cents

Probably stating the obvious....

more money
less flying
no stupid limits on how many days off (6 in a row, 15 a month, only 1 with leave etc..)

company should understand that no one who is 50% sane would move here if it wasn't for gaining more money and live an easier life.

less money... less life... less pilots.

morituri te salutant

Last edited by KippaLippa; 13th Mar 2018 at 05:11. Reason: correction
KippaLippa is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 05:20
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 460
Originally Posted by KippaLippa View Post
Probably stating the obvious....


no stupid limits on how many days off (6 in a row, 15 a month, )
I wish I could get 6 in a row or 15 in a month! Those days have long gone. 9 a month is the normal these days and usually in blocks of 2 and 1, occasionally 3
felixthecat is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 06:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In the desert
Posts: 152
5 things that I consider critical

> back to 78 hours flying pr month (after that overtime pay at a rate that is at least double of now)
> step plus missing steps plus substantial increase in basic and pay for own sims
> no limits to amount/strings of days off
> credit hours for leave and sim
> 42 days of leave
DuneMentat is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:07
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: OneDegSouth
Posts: 78
I agree with all the above. Keep it short and simple.

My list.

20% pay increase minimum (2 steps + VAT + Inflation)

78 hour OT threshold with a punitive scale. Exceed 84 hours and OT pay rate doubles. Exceed 90 and OT pay rate triples.

Credit hours for leave and sim. 3 hours per leave day. 5 hours for sim or ground duty.

Drop restrictions on rostering requests and on swaps.

Offer life style rosters in seniority.
Arcla is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 08:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Dubai
Posts: 19
about 2 dozen new joiners being given a tour of the arrivals area when I returned yesterday morning, so they're still coming!

pay yes, rules yes, but I also want the choice again of where I can live in Dubai!
sandsthrudahrglass is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 11:57
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: evicted
Posts: 337
Nice Christmas list indeed. That would take 3 years to negotiate in a collective bargaining environment.


Here it might take 300 years.
PositiveRate876 is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 12:22
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dubai
Posts: 8
This is a long-overdue list of very valid and pertinent points. Obviously, some people will view certain points as being over the top, while others may see those same points as very important. Our opinions have fallen on deaf ears for so long that now the list could be twice as long as it is.

While I could add numerous items to the list, many of my concerns are addressed in some manner already. Different to a typical negotiation with a company’s management however, is that many of the mentioned items are not really negotiation points; they are really just the bare bones minimums that ought to have been in place already.

Days off, vacation and the pay are my biggest issues. The step increment on pay is not a pay raise; it is a pre-agreed contractual item. The company may have conveniently moved all sorts of things to the policy manual so they can manipulate them without touching the contract itself but that is against the spirit of the agreement we made with them when we joined. And the spirit of an agreement is as important as the words in the agreement itself. The company has violated both the contract and the spirit of the agreement and these matters must be corrected to give us back the baseline from which we can work towards a better company all round.

XX days on a roster are set and supposed to be guaranteed days off. Days off before and after an ULR trip are a scheduling requirement but are not part of the ULR pairing. If your ULR is removed for whatever reason, the days off before and after must still remain as days off. It is ridiculous to have no control over four of your days off every time you are scheduled for an ULR pairing. Furthermore, since days off after a ULR are scheduling requirements they should be scheduled even if you have vacation after the ULR. The company cannot use vacation to cover the legal scheduling requirements. These are just two, out of many examples, of where our rosters are being violated.

Similarly, Scheduling needs to stop calling days on which we work, rest days. If we are on duty during any amount of time in a given day, it’s a work day. For example, on the 201/202 pairing, the return flight leaves New York just before midnight on the second day of the three day pairing, which is actually well into day three based on Dubai time. The flight arrives in Dubai at 20:25 having flown entirely during the third day of the pairing. Why and how can this be classified as a rest day?? The entirety of the flight takes place during the calendar day of the destination station and it’s a rest day? Ummm… no!!

Respect is clearly a major problem. The lack of respect is reflected in every correspondence and interaction with the company. Office staff who fail to answer their phones or reply to messages, and if you do manage to reach anyone its like you woke them from a deep sleep. What ever happened to basic professional phone etiquette?

Then there’s the amount of time we have to wait for the bus to arrive after a flight, the excessive time waiting for our suitcases to be offloaded from the plane, and the ridiculous amount of time waiting for those bags to arrive at the baggage belt. If we were paid till we collected our suitcases in the office, rather than chocks on, we’d have a bus, loaded with our suitcases, waiting for us after arrival instead of the other way round.

The point is that while we have many big issues to deal with, there are plenty of smaller points that could, and should, be changed immediately. We’ve often commented that many of the smaller points are ‘no-cost’ items that would have a very positive impact if there were to be an attitude change across the board.

It has been far too long that we have endured empty promises of improved rosters and adequate crew numbers. Its high time the company took the necessary steps to correct their shortcomings and make this company the first choice of airlines to work for once again, instead of the last resort that qualified pilots shy away from.
Osprey55 is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2018, 14:14
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 137
I don't think the sentence about the sub-humans would go down too well...just saying.
Mach_Krit is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2018, 05:38
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 4
So Seaman Staynes why didn't you ASK some more seriously Non Ridiculous questions at that forum then? It was a very poorly attended Forum, and at the time the Head of accommodations was addressing us and I prophetically enquired about the Garage Ports in MS was inadequate as opposed to Meydan Heights where the company had to install new Closed in Garage ports and I asked this while living in Semmer Villas. This was early 2017 and I had no clue we were going to be forced out later that year. The meeting was coming to a close and after asking the Head of Accommodations about the situation in Semmer Villas assuring me that we're good for at least another 2-3 years, I decided to press him on another "Accommodation" issue that I believed to be pertinent, which believe it or NOT I'm now in Meydan South and face the same ISSUE that you so easily disregard. A car is for some the most expensive purchase we would ever buy in Dubai and seeing that they did it for Meydan Heights, I thought it fair that MS would get the same treatment. Remember I did this while living in Semmer and NOT knowing what my fate had in store only a few months later while being assured that will NOT BE The Case!. So I ask YOU SIR, What exactly was YOUR earth shattering questions that day again? I forgot!!!!
CNJB777 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2018, 05:40
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dubai
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by Seaman Staynes View Post
It will be interesting to see what they say at the forum, how it is conducted and what the general atmosphere is during the meeting.

In the past unless you were there you didn't really get the "feel" of the meeting. I've been to a couple of the forums last year and the managers that were there (DSVP / ADSVP / SVP training / Chief pilots / Managers from accommodation and manpower and planning) took as bashing, questions flying everywhere ranging from the ridiculous - bloke who thought lack of car port covers at meydan south a real priority, to the sublime - a seriously senior guy calmly asking why he was not allocated any leave - none / nada / zip and finally to the really sad - a chap who'd just got divorced purely due to the company high hours then lack of leave / days off so not seeing his wife and young family etc!! Special angst was shown to the aussie (?) muppet from manpower and planning (the guy who manages the roster system) - he thought it would be a great start to say about rosters "I am never going to make you happy!"

Could there be some sort of precis here about the way the forum went, atmosphere, responses and general feeling so that those of us that will not be able to attend will have some idea of what went on....? Thanks
So Seaman Staynes why didn't you ASK some more seriously Non Ridiculous questions at that forum then? It was a very poorly attended Forum, and at the time the Head of accommodations was addressing us and I prophetically enquired about the Garage Ports in MS was inadequate as opposed to Meydan Heights where the company had to install new Closed in Garage ports and I asked this while living in Semmer Villas. This was early 2017 and I had no clue we were going to be forced out later that year. The meeting was coming to a close and after asking the Head of Accommodations about the situation in Semmer Villas assuring me that we're good for at least another 2-3 years, I decided to press him on another "Accommodation" issue that I believed to be pertinent, which believe it or NOT I'm now in Meydan South and face the same ISSUE that you so easily disregard. A car is for some the most expensive purchase we would ever buy in Dubai and seeing that they did it for Meydan Heights, I thought it fair that MS would get the same treatment. Remember I did this while living in Semmer and NOT knowing what my fate had in store only a few months later while being assured that will NOT BE The Case!. So I ask YOU SIR, What exactly was YOUR earth shattering questions that day again? I forgot!!!!
CNJB777 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2018, 15:36
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 728
As the Union word is unspeakable (like at my place...) maybe you need to place the pilot workforce in a new wrapper. "The Emirates pilot representation family" or some such bullshit name. Get the point across with numbers but using terms that cannot be construed as illegal.
Deep and fast is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2018, 18:59
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: nomad
Age: 59
Posts: 3
2 fils!

Can anyone writing on this forum really impact what’s happening at Emirates, I doubt it! But hopefully we can make a few people feel uncomfortable personally and that might change attitudes.
Perception is reality if you a starved of fact and we are starved!
The Forum later this month is an appeasement exercise, nothing more, unless we take the initiative.
Whilst I ‘largely’ agree with the multiple gripes previously mentioned we are missing an opportunity. Emirates called this meeting. Why? Let’s ask them.
Simply put, what initiatives have management under taken in the last 10? years that may have brought us to our present hiatus? Let’s hear what they have to say. I think they know very well.
Let’s hear how they justify their actions. They’re not really interested in what we want at this stage but I would be very interested in their response to:
The general ‘Bully Culture’ of Flight Ops, Fleet, Training, HR, Medical Services, Housing etc towards the Pilot community. We have let these departments forget that ‘they’ are appendages. Their sole function is to provide support to their most important customer, the Pilot Workforce. If they are not able or willing to provide the necessary support they should be removed.
To make progress we need acknowledgment and accountability from management. Then we can start tabling the specific issues.
14D
14DStrasse is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2018, 20:23
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dubai rock city
Age: 47
Posts: 171
My god. What are you two last clowns on about?
motley flight crue is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2018, 15:53
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 29
I would like to add for the list: All pilots are required to download GABI packages, update software on the EPT from home, the telephone allowance should be increased, we use our own internet connections for operational matter.
jarops is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2018, 16:07
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: FL370
Posts: 132
jarops probably what you mean is the extra dewa cost from running your ept 24/7 at home so it can download the daily updates
sealear is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2018, 17:41
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by jarops View Post
I would like to add for the list: All pilots are required to download GABI packages, update software on the EPT from home, the telephone allowance should be increased, we use our own internet connections for operational matter.
So we get 200Dhs phone allowance cheapest Internet and phone package is about 350Dhs so you are proposing to use a forum with limited time to raise issues to senior management to request a 150Dhs per month pay rise because you don’t want to use your home internet for the EPT? This is why they’ll never take us seriously.. can’t we just stick to the big headline issues like pay/roster/leave?
speedbirdhopeful1 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2018, 20:42
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Kingston upon Thames
Posts: 79
speedbird,

you are right, the telephone/Internet issue is a minor one.
And you are wrong, it's not because of these things that we are not being taken seriously.
actually, it's not even a matter of being taken seriously.
We simply aren't taken into consideration.
IF a company cares about the employees and their needs and fair expectations, no issue raised in such a meeting would be considered minor or useless.
and to answer to someone else who said that if we (we, hahaha, like there is a "we") ask for several things the company will just give us the peanuts and say we should be happy because our requests were taken into account, even this is wrong. why?
for a very similar reason.... The "company" is not an abstract entity, it is our management, and these are people, who know that there is a problem.
it's not by saying that our concerns were addressed that this problem is magically solved.
If they give us the 150aed per month and say now you must be happy, they aren't fooling us, they are fooling themselves, and the numbers will tell them.
In fact, they are already trying to actually address the problem.... by calling every pilot who left in the last two years and asking why they left, and what could have made them change their mind and make them stay instead.
which is actually a better idea than doing this forum, why?
because here the only choice we have is to stay or to leave, those who stay, mainly it's because they can't leave or don't want to, hence they would stay even if nothing changes.
those who left are the ones the company has to get the information from, because they know why they left, and they know what could bring them (or someone else) back.

I am totally convinced now that this forum will be useless.

have a good day

KL
KippaLippa is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2018, 23:10
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: home
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by KippaLippa View Post


In fact, they are already trying to actually address the problem.... by calling every pilot who left in the last two years and asking why they left, and what could have made them change their mind and make them stay instead.

KL

I wasn't called before I left.

I haven't been called since I left.

None of my many colleagues who have also left have been called.
greenfields is offline  

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