Comms in the Gulf
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Comms in the Gulf
Two pleas from this ATCO and I'm almost certain I speak for most units in the Gulf;
We have callsign confusion every day now in this neck of the woods. Please, please listen carefully for your callsign and don't answer if you're not sure the call is for you. Don't worry, we'll let you know if it's you we're after
Secondly, when you're given frequency change instructions, don't just select the new frequency and burst forth without thinking. Count 10 seconds or wait till you can definitely identify a clear break in comms and then talk. You wouldn't believe how many important exchanges are interrupted by needless thoughtlessness and safety is compromised.
If you do that, my blood pressure will resume normal ops.
Thanks for listening.
We have callsign confusion every day now in this neck of the woods. Please, please listen carefully for your callsign and don't answer if you're not sure the call is for you. Don't worry, we'll let you know if it's you we're after
Secondly, when you're given frequency change instructions, don't just select the new frequency and burst forth without thinking. Count 10 seconds or wait till you can definitely identify a clear break in comms and then talk. You wouldn't believe how many important exchanges are interrupted by needless thoughtlessness and safety is compromised.
If you do that, my blood pressure will resume normal ops.
Thanks for listening.
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When it comes to call sign confusion, please can you and your controller colleagues report all occurrences when you feel the similarity between call signs is too significant.
Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.
Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.
I couldn't agree more. See it so many times, crew rush to reply only to find it wasn't their call/clearance in the first place, but they have blocked the correct recipient giving an incorrect read-back, or frequency.
Why are radio replies seen as some sort of race? Take your time - especially on the frequency changes!
Why are radio replies seen as some sort of race? Take your time - especially on the frequency changes!
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When it comes to call sign confusion, please can you and your controller colleagues report all occurrences when you feel the similarity between call signs is too significant.
Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.
Too little is being done by operators to help remedy the situation and perhaps a little external pressure may help.
About 2 years ago a local airline decided to change all their call signs by removing the '0' as the 1st digit.
The reason apparently, to reduce call sign confusion.
Result, now a lot of this airline's flight numbers are exactly the same as another airline's numbers and on similar routes...and probably for the next couple of FIRs.
When on the frequency, no problem if it's just 2 of you.
2 days ago, 7 aircraft on frequency, all the same airline, 6 with "similar" call sign, most having the same digit at start and end with only the middle digit differing.
That is 6 extra transmissions to point that out to each and everyone.
Last edited by Smirre13; 24th Jun 2015 at 12:10. Reason: Corrections
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wait before transmit?
Generally we don't need an ATCO to tell us what was learnt on day one of flying training about radiotelephony but sadly in this part of the world the basics are lost, especially with indians on the air, speaking at the speed of light, the definition of a millisecond being between when one transmission ends and theirs begins, a bit like when the light goes green at an intersection.
Callsign confusion - ironic when in 3/4 of calls no one even bothers using a callsign anyway..
ATC could lift the game a little too. Answer instead of ignoring a call as often happens leaving pilots to wonder if they're on the wrong freq, how about if busy, at least say "Standby." How long does that take? Saudi, India, Oman are the worst offenders. The 'S' in ATS means 'service'
The need to constantly re-establish contact before making a call does my head in around this place. You've just been speaking on VHF, then need to re-establish contact all over again back and forth just to make another routine call. This place really is full of retards.
PS: 1962 I've had transmissions from ARR and DEP I know are to my flight but addressed to the wrong but similar flight number. ATCOs need to think before transmitting when similar numbers are in the air. It does work both ways.
The bottom line 1962 is that some commercial departments overrule all operational considerations in the flight ops department run by toothless tigers who only have the balls to pick on their own pilots, not tackle real issues.
Ahhhh... there, 1962, like you I've had a cathartic outpouring. Feels good but nothing will ever change........... Let's all meet for a beer.
Callsign confusion - ironic when in 3/4 of calls no one even bothers using a callsign anyway..
ATC could lift the game a little too. Answer instead of ignoring a call as often happens leaving pilots to wonder if they're on the wrong freq, how about if busy, at least say "Standby." How long does that take? Saudi, India, Oman are the worst offenders. The 'S' in ATS means 'service'
The need to constantly re-establish contact before making a call does my head in around this place. You've just been speaking on VHF, then need to re-establish contact all over again back and forth just to make another routine call. This place really is full of retards.
PS: 1962 I've had transmissions from ARR and DEP I know are to my flight but addressed to the wrong but similar flight number. ATCOs need to think before transmitting when similar numbers are in the air. It does work both ways.
The bottom line 1962 is that some commercial departments overrule all operational considerations in the flight ops department run by toothless tigers who only have the balls to pick on their own pilots, not tackle real issues.
Ahhhh... there, 1962, like you I've had a cathartic outpouring. Feels good but nothing will ever change........... Let's all meet for a beer.
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Points taken, Outatowner. We're guilty and I don't know how to solve the problem of nonchalance. From what I've gleaned from 35 years in the business, most ATC training departments around the world teach their people to answer all calls as soon as is humanly possible (there are a few exceptions to that rule, as always, but you should get an explanation as to why e.g."I had urgent co-ord going on"). I am professionally appalled at the manner of many of our brethren who seem to think that it's OK to leave pilots hanging when they're trying to establish comms.
And, mea culpa, due to the many similar callsigns around here, I've messed up, too, and wondered why the guy I wanted to answer hasn't been there. In the heat of battle and sector loadings over the 30 mark, it's not hard to see why this happens.
As pie-in-the-sky as it may seem, it would be timely for a number of the ATS providers and main airline players to get together and do something to enhance safety. Less junkets; more substantive meetings with clear targets that benefit all of us. Dreams are free; if they weren't, we'd all be poor men.
Take care and apologies from us when you haven't received the service you paid for. Cheers.
And, mea culpa, due to the many similar callsigns around here, I've messed up, too, and wondered why the guy I wanted to answer hasn't been there. In the heat of battle and sector loadings over the 30 mark, it's not hard to see why this happens.
As pie-in-the-sky as it may seem, it would be timely for a number of the ATS providers and main airline players to get together and do something to enhance safety. Less junkets; more substantive meetings with clear targets that benefit all of us. Dreams are free; if they weren't, we'd all be poor men.
Take care and apologies from us when you haven't received the service you paid for. Cheers.
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ATCO1962,
Thanks for the classy and humble post. The callsign similarity blame has to rest completely with EK, who has done the sum total of nothing to address it. There was briefly an initiative to use alternate callsigns, it never came to anything and was quietly removed from the company NOTAMS. Keep up the good work, men!
For those who slag the level of ATC in the UAE/Dubai, I suggest in the interests of educating themselves they take one of the APC ("the organization formerly known as the Emirates Pilots Club") El Mundo cruises. Lots of ATCO/pilots aboard and besides being a great piss-up will enlighten you as to why a lot of things that seem to make no sense, are done. The controllers in the region are as good or better than any in the world, and if you actually understood the limitations they work under you might not be so critical. The faults are 99% with the infrastructure, not the operators.
And for the EK (SUPER) heroes who constantly check in with Dubai and proceed to tie up the frequency with 15 seconds of verbal diarrhea, please...READ THE BLOODY AOI! Give your callsign, your passing level, and your type. That's it! No need to give your cleared level, the ATIS, the QNH, your squawk, your blood type, sexual preference, and on and on. YOU are the problem, not the solution.
Just f-ing read it, it's not rocket surgery.
AOI 1-30
Geezuz I'm not even Australian and I can figure it out!
Thanks for the classy and humble post. The callsign similarity blame has to rest completely with EK, who has done the sum total of nothing to address it. There was briefly an initiative to use alternate callsigns, it never came to anything and was quietly removed from the company NOTAMS. Keep up the good work, men!
For those who slag the level of ATC in the UAE/Dubai, I suggest in the interests of educating themselves they take one of the APC ("the organization formerly known as the Emirates Pilots Club") El Mundo cruises. Lots of ATCO/pilots aboard and besides being a great piss-up will enlighten you as to why a lot of things that seem to make no sense, are done. The controllers in the region are as good or better than any in the world, and if you actually understood the limitations they work under you might not be so critical. The faults are 99% with the infrastructure, not the operators.
And for the EK (SUPER) heroes who constantly check in with Dubai and proceed to tie up the frequency with 15 seconds of verbal diarrhea, please...READ THE BLOODY AOI! Give your callsign, your passing level, and your type. That's it! No need to give your cleared level, the ATIS, the QNH, your squawk, your blood type, sexual preference, and on and on. YOU are the problem, not the solution.
Just f-ing read it, it's not rocket surgery.
AOI 1-30
On initial contact with ARR report:
- ACFT callsign
- Passing LVL
- ACFT type
- ACFT callsign
- Passing LVL
- ACFT type
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READ THE BLOODY AOI! Give your callsign, your passing level, and your type. That's it! No need to give your cleared level, the ATIS, the QNH, your squawk, your blood type, sexual preference, and on and on.
On one of the other matters I reckon going on 50% of the people I fly with don't listen out before pressing the t*t on frequency change. Just how did they get this far in this job without being put right? Why did they start doing it in the first place?
Another thing, do I have to listen to the other guy give our squawk code, and with one radiostar recently the next waypoint too, on every single frequency change all the way from the UAE up to Europe and further. Why do these people do this?
EK by the way.
Last edited by theidler; 25th Jun 2015 at 06:02. Reason: ...and why bother with a callsign anyway...
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We are in a situation at present where it feels like it's going to take an incident for EK to sit up and address the issue of call sign confusion. None of us want to see that.
As nolimitholdem has said, the company is not choosing to tackle this issue and for reasons that I simply cannot fathom either. I appreciate that there can be issues with overflight clearances with call signs that are not the same as the flight number but these are not insurmountable. There is one European operator that uses an alpha numeric call sign on their daily outbound flight to DXB. Therefore EK has no excuse for not at least tackling the call sign confusion amongst the late evening European arrivals, that all arrive at the DESDI hold at a similar time.
Call sign confusion will not improve unless we either have an incident involving lots of paperwork or pressure to act is applied from a third party. Internal ASRs simply get dismissed on the fact that since no specific safety event (loss of separation or an RA etc) took place, then there is no problem to rectify.
I know that ATCOs in the Gulf are being stretched and putting pen to paper at the end of a shift is perhaps not something that will be a high priority, unless an incident actually took place. A few minutes of form filling might bring us a step closer to seeing a solution, to this ever growing problem. The internal mechanisms within EK are ineffective at resolving this problem at present and some external pressure may help.
As nolimitholdem has said, the company is not choosing to tackle this issue and for reasons that I simply cannot fathom either. I appreciate that there can be issues with overflight clearances with call signs that are not the same as the flight number but these are not insurmountable. There is one European operator that uses an alpha numeric call sign on their daily outbound flight to DXB. Therefore EK has no excuse for not at least tackling the call sign confusion amongst the late evening European arrivals, that all arrive at the DESDI hold at a similar time.
Call sign confusion will not improve unless we either have an incident involving lots of paperwork or pressure to act is applied from a third party. Internal ASRs simply get dismissed on the fact that since no specific safety event (loss of separation or an RA etc) took place, then there is no problem to rectify.
I know that ATCOs in the Gulf are being stretched and putting pen to paper at the end of a shift is perhaps not something that will be a high priority, unless an incident actually took place. A few minutes of form filling might bring us a step closer to seeing a solution, to this ever growing problem. The internal mechanisms within EK are ineffective at resolving this problem at present and some external pressure may help.
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That then NLH will be like the EK (Tractor) Heroes who are always asked by DXB Arrivals 'Emirates xxx, confirm you're a triple seven Whiskey?' - at least every time I happen to be on the frequency
Let's face it, we have pilots on all fleets and at all airlines who have gash RT discipline and useage. If we hear the guy or girl next to us mucking it up it's up to us to tell 'em...
And what is it with all the ELP Level 6 holders who can't actually understand the RT?
Let's face it, we have pilots on all fleets and at all airlines who have gash RT discipline and useage. If we hear the guy or girl next to us mucking it up it's up to us to tell 'em...
And what is it with all the ELP Level 6 holders who can't actually understand the RT?
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Just a question to ATCO...why is it so important for you to know our aircraft type? Does it change anything to your ops,and you probably already know it? Could understand to add EKxxx Heavy or Super for the wake separation,but aircraft type...can only be one of 4 anyway.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Emma, it's because those in the commercial side of things run the airline for money not safety. It's been put to them before but they won't risk a passenger not being able to buy a ticket because he couldn't find the flight number after flight ops had it changed. Apparently there is marketing value in a flight number. Eg EK1.
The solution offered was adding suffix "A" to the callsign which procedure is still in use as recently as less than two weeks ago when I heard it done. If not, the only other option is to stay awake and pay attention which does seem to be a problem as 1962 has pointed out.
As for type notification, I believe this has to do with approach speed awareness for ATCOs. Type is on the flight plan but presumably they don't have time to dig on the APP freq. Different SOPs for different countries and the pathetic shambles of a CCI and AOI doesn't help knowing when to say or not say it. Doesn't seem to make a difference here anyway as EK adjust speed when they feel like it without advising.
The solution offered was adding suffix "A" to the callsign which procedure is still in use as recently as less than two weeks ago when I heard it done. If not, the only other option is to stay awake and pay attention which does seem to be a problem as 1962 has pointed out.
As for type notification, I believe this has to do with approach speed awareness for ATCOs. Type is on the flight plan but presumably they don't have time to dig on the APP freq. Different SOPs for different countries and the pathetic shambles of a CCI and AOI doesn't help knowing when to say or not say it. Doesn't seem to make a difference here anyway as EK adjust speed when they feel like it without advising.
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theidler
No ATIS is required to be given, however, ATC will respond to your initial call with the current ATIS as a confirmation to you that that's the one in use. Departure is even easier. Call sign and passing level. That's it!
Nolimitholdem.....I'm with you on this one.
Harry
No ATIS is required to be given, however, ATC will respond to your initial call with the current ATIS as a confirmation to you that that's the one in use. Departure is even easier. Call sign and passing level. That's it!
Nolimitholdem.....I'm with you on this one.
Harry
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comms in the gulf
The question was raised about the requirement to state aircraft type on first contact. Around 5 years ago there were an increasing number of instances where incorrect aircraft types had been entered into the flight plan.
In the approach/arrival sector we rely on this information being correct as we use this information to create our approach sequence based on the wake turbulence separation. A number of airlines operating into Dubai specifically, use multiple aircraft types on the same routes ranging from E170 to B744.
One airline based 3 hours ESE of Dubai, arrived 99% of the time with a B738. One evening an A332 was substituted. No one caught it until he called me on arrival and I noticed the type on the strip was not the same type displayed on the radar.
What's the issue? Huge wake implications when I am trying to stuff another B738 3 miles up his exhaust pipe.
Where does the fault lay...? Short notice Airline Equipment change, Flight planning, AFTN, Assistants oversight, Controllers Familiarity bias, Pilot's expectations,... sometimes finger trouble, such as... A320 vrs A340. One digit and you 100 tonnes off in your weight calculations.
It is a minor inconvenience but could save a nasty wake encounter.
In the approach/arrival sector we rely on this information being correct as we use this information to create our approach sequence based on the wake turbulence separation. A number of airlines operating into Dubai specifically, use multiple aircraft types on the same routes ranging from E170 to B744.
One airline based 3 hours ESE of Dubai, arrived 99% of the time with a B738. One evening an A332 was substituted. No one caught it until he called me on arrival and I noticed the type on the strip was not the same type displayed on the radar.
What's the issue? Huge wake implications when I am trying to stuff another B738 3 miles up his exhaust pipe.
Where does the fault lay...? Short notice Airline Equipment change, Flight planning, AFTN, Assistants oversight, Controllers Familiarity bias, Pilot's expectations,... sometimes finger trouble, such as... A320 vrs A340. One digit and you 100 tonnes off in your weight calculations.
It is a minor inconvenience but could save a nasty wake encounter.
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Outatowner - You are right in how this is another fine example of EK incompetence but the callsign that is used, doesn't have to have any similarity to the flight number on a ticket. In fact some operators have totally random digits for some callsigns which bear no resemblance to the associated flight number whatsoever. The EK flight numbers don't need to change. The only time I have seen a suffix added is when there has been significant delay of some kind and the aircraft goes back to DXB with a 'D' being added on to the callsign.
QCM - I am not a controller but will answer your question. The type check on first contact is done to ensure that the controller can apply the correct wake vortex separation. Take an example where an airline is operating a flight with an A320 and at the last minute there is a tech problem and an A330 is used instead. In amongst the aircraft swap, someone somewhere forgets to change the flight plan. Wind the clock forward and the A330 descends towards a busy airport but the information from the flight plan, which is available to the approach controller, says it's an A320. So separation behind a heavy needs to be applied here but the controller thinks it's a medium instead. It could mean the controller inadvertently positions someone closer behind the A330 than they should be.
The above scenario may seem a little far fetched but it is entirely possible. There is more scope for getting types wrong in other parts of the world but with minimum separation being used most of the time in DXB, it's in the controller's interest to verify what type he or she is dealing with.
QCM - I am not a controller but will answer your question. The type check on first contact is done to ensure that the controller can apply the correct wake vortex separation. Take an example where an airline is operating a flight with an A320 and at the last minute there is a tech problem and an A330 is used instead. In amongst the aircraft swap, someone somewhere forgets to change the flight plan. Wind the clock forward and the A330 descends towards a busy airport but the information from the flight plan, which is available to the approach controller, says it's an A320. So separation behind a heavy needs to be applied here but the controller thinks it's a medium instead. It could mean the controller inadvertently positions someone closer behind the A330 than they should be.
The above scenario may seem a little far fetched but it is entirely possible. There is more scope for getting types wrong in other parts of the world but with minimum separation being used most of the time in DXB, it's in the controller's interest to verify what type he or she is dealing with.