Wall Street Journal article on EK crewing problem.
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Yes conditions and even pay did drop for awhile but now with the current pilot shortage the pilots are getting back what they lost but at a slower pace than we would like.
I haven't heard the same complaints from pilots at the legacy airlines. They have complaints but those complaints are so different from we as Emirates pilots have. They complain when they work 12 days a month or don't get an extra 7 days off after their vacation. We think it is a good month when we are "only" rostered 90 hours a month.
It does make many a sane man wonder why EK is doing what they are doing to us. Turning the screws on us when most pilots can and want to leave to better opportunities.
Maybe with this WSJ article things will change. The article didn't even real touch on the real issues effecting Emirates pilots, rostering patterns and hours worked. I don't think things will change unless something serious happens. The media couldn't be bothered and the public just doesn't care.
I haven't heard the same complaints from pilots at the legacy airlines. They have complaints but those complaints are so different from we as Emirates pilots have. They complain when they work 12 days a month or don't get an extra 7 days off after their vacation. We think it is a good month when we are "only" rostered 90 hours a month.
It does make many a sane man wonder why EK is doing what they are doing to us. Turning the screws on us when most pilots can and want to leave to better opportunities.
Maybe with this WSJ article things will change. The article didn't even real touch on the real issues effecting Emirates pilots, rostering patterns and hours worked. I don't think things will change unless something serious happens. The media couldn't be bothered and the public just doesn't care.
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jetII,
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees
When the industry has been down, the EK siren song was enticing. Not so much now when looking at industry profit shares, pay rises, etc. Take a look at a legacy U.S. wide body international pilot's schedule/roster. You would be shocked at what an EK pilot's roster would look like in comparison.
EK prides itself in being an industry leader, but refuses to acknowledge the contributions all of its employees, except for a few meaningless emails.
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees
When the industry has been down, the EK siren song was enticing. Not so much now when looking at industry profit shares, pay rises, etc. Take a look at a legacy U.S. wide body international pilot's schedule/roster. You would be shocked at what an EK pilot's roster would look like in comparison.
EK prides itself in being an industry leader, but refuses to acknowledge the contributions all of its employees, except for a few meaningless emails.
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Well said. T. U!
A colleague of mine showed me a roster he had obtained of a 777. It was not really believable compared to what EK forces upon us each and every month. It looked like part time work, yet had about 80 hours of flying. Something like 10 days of actual fly.
Wow...!
A colleague of mine showed me a roster he had obtained of a 777. It was not really believable compared to what EK forces upon us each and every month. It looked like part time work, yet had about 80 hours of flying. Something like 10 days of actual fly.
Wow...!
short flights long nights
Just to throw something in the mix...it's been about 5 weeks now since I did my last flight. Sitting at home, the biggest pressure I have not had is counting down the days until I return to Dubai, as I always did while on leave.
The other thing I have found, is how much better I feel, sleeping when then sun is down, being awake when then sun is up.
And the removal of the 'EK stress' hard to explain, unless you work for EK. The constant feeling....you are only as good as your last sector...
There is a lot to fix, a big bonus IMHO do that...there is so much wrong now, so much ingrained in management it may never get fixed..beating those that remain certainly won't help...
The other thing I have found, is how much better I feel, sleeping when then sun is down, being awake when then sun is up.
And the removal of the 'EK stress' hard to explain, unless you work for EK. The constant feeling....you are only as good as your last sector...
There is a lot to fix, a big bonus IMHO do that...there is so much wrong now, so much ingrained in management it may never get fixed..beating those that remain certainly won't help...
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He added, though, the airline is monitored closely and there have been no significant complaints about safety, including via an anonymous system for reporting such issues.
Emirates said in a statement responding to the allegations it never compromises on safety and fully complies with its regulator’s mandates.
The state-owned carrier, which wouldn’t make executives available for this article, also said it had a “proactive” fatigue-management procedure.
Emirates acknowledged discontent among its more than 3,700 pilots, though it called those speaking out an unhappy “vocal minority.” It urged them to engage with management, adding it had set up an open forum for pilots to provide input
Whether those speaking out are a minority or a majority is certainly open to debate. What isn't, is that for years, the only response from Emirates management to any displays of discontent or even concern has been; "if you don't like it, leave".
It is obvious that Emirates management and Mr. Al Redha himself consider increasing levels of pilot productivity as a bottomless well from which to continuously fish for increased profits WITHOUT considering the consequences on safety or morale. There are not many airlines in the world that are consistently scheduling their flight crews to the levels that Emirates is and none that are their direct competitors.
Last edited by Broken Promises; 11th Apr 2015 at 22:45.
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Hi, a question,
those 90+ hours, do they include hours in the crewrest? Someone told me rest hours on augmented crew are deducted at EK? Can't imagine that is allowed for FTL calculations.
Sorry, just a curious colleague..
those 90+ hours, do they include hours in the crewrest? Someone told me rest hours on augmented crew are deducted at EK? Can't imagine that is allowed for FTL calculations.
Sorry, just a curious colleague..
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TangoUniform
I was wondering what to say?
You pretty much covered it.
I guess the biggest thing I've taken from the WSJ article is AR lying.
The fact that they lie to us is one thing but this is an all time low.
Other than that I'm shocked at the lack of response.
No wonder Emirates is getting away with the despicable way they treat their staff.
You pretty much covered it.
I guess the biggest thing I've taken from the WSJ article is AR lying.
The fact that they lie to us is one thing but this is an all time low.
Other than that I'm shocked at the lack of response.
No wonder Emirates is getting away with the despicable way they treat their staff.
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GYS, the 90+ hrs does include crew rest time (but not ground duties and simulator or time spent on reserve/standby). We also get flight pay for the crew rest time. However, it does not count towards the flight time limitations for 30 days or 365 days.
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Most of you chaps are completely misguided in your anger toward EK management. They are no different from management in any airline around the world. The difference is the laws of the land you have chosen to live in. The same laws that give you your tax free salary, cheap maids, cheap cars, cheap fuel and expat lifestyle.
It would appear that by acceptance, most of you approve of the exploited labor that builds your villa's and cleans them for you, cleans your car, serves you at Spinneys etc, but when it is your turn to be kicked in the nuts it is unacceptable.
As can be demonstrated by the issues raised at United, management in first world countries would be doing the same if it were not for the laws of those countries that give workers rights, and allow them to stand up for them without persecution.
I find it amusing that some on this forum who accepted the poisoned chalice of EK are rooting for airlines in other countries to force better conditions in the UAE. You probably have no real idea how ludicrous it sounds to outsiders when someone who is not prepared to fight their own battles expects someone else to do it for them.
I have done my time at Emirates and now spend my time fighting for better conditions with the support of unions, equitable labor laws and my colleagues. My management is no different from yours, it is just that I can sit across the table from mine and hold them accountable when they do something that is not consistent with our contracts. I can also lobby the government for changes if necessary and I pay a high price for that privilege in the form of tax.
So if you are not happy with the laws of your adopted country, give up your tax free lifestyle and return to the first world but please stop deluding yourselves that you are any different from the man in blue overalls picking up the rubbish on the beach. All workers in the UAE are a resource to be exploited. You guys are just some of the higher paid ones.
It would appear that by acceptance, most of you approve of the exploited labor that builds your villa's and cleans them for you, cleans your car, serves you at Spinneys etc, but when it is your turn to be kicked in the nuts it is unacceptable.
As can be demonstrated by the issues raised at United, management in first world countries would be doing the same if it were not for the laws of those countries that give workers rights, and allow them to stand up for them without persecution.
I find it amusing that some on this forum who accepted the poisoned chalice of EK are rooting for airlines in other countries to force better conditions in the UAE. You probably have no real idea how ludicrous it sounds to outsiders when someone who is not prepared to fight their own battles expects someone else to do it for them.
I have done my time at Emirates and now spend my time fighting for better conditions with the support of unions, equitable labor laws and my colleagues. My management is no different from yours, it is just that I can sit across the table from mine and hold them accountable when they do something that is not consistent with our contracts. I can also lobby the government for changes if necessary and I pay a high price for that privilege in the form of tax.
So if you are not happy with the laws of your adopted country, give up your tax free lifestyle and return to the first world but please stop deluding yourselves that you are any different from the man in blue overalls picking up the rubbish on the beach. All workers in the UAE are a resource to be exploited. You guys are just some of the higher paid ones.
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Not a bad comment 6100.
The only thing i miss in your contribution is the safety aspect. I accept the poisoned chalice metaphor concerning T&C's with the impossibility of fighting cynical greed with unions and against a corrupt regulator as long as it does not touch outright safety.
But please accept that a big part of our plight in the ME, and the major reason of hoping for more articles like this one, is in the name of safety for crew and passengers, not simply for money.
It would have been worth mentioning in your lecture.
The only thing i miss in your contribution is the safety aspect. I accept the poisoned chalice metaphor concerning T&C's with the impossibility of fighting cynical greed with unions and against a corrupt regulator as long as it does not touch outright safety.
But please accept that a big part of our plight in the ME, and the major reason of hoping for more articles like this one, is in the name of safety for crew and passengers, not simply for money.
It would have been worth mentioning in your lecture.
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6100, you are correct. We just have better uniforms, sort of, and at least for the pilots, a better mode of transportation to work. And you accurately describe "their" attitude towards their minions.
There is a slight difference though. The rubbish collecter is not charged with a billion dollar/dirham asset. The cost of the a/c, the liabilities cost, the shinning jewel of Dubai, and the reputation of a worldwide corporation. Those in charge of this place need to understand that they cannot achieve their goals without a motivated and content workforce, especially in a service business.
But it' snot just the pilots, as you know. But be careful, my friend, in putting all your hopes and dreams in your Union. If need be, YOUR Union will chew you up and spit you out, just like management if it suits their aim..but better having a voice than none at all. Time and time again, unions around the world have turned their backs on their members. And that is worse than an abusive management. Ask the Americans why many of them arrived at the ME airlines, and a great majority will say because their union thought it better to not listen to their concerns. Happens a lot my friend. But again, you do have the ability to influence the wanna be managers (lifetime union reps).
But please, even though you say you spent your turn in the barrel here, save that old cliche, love it or leave it.
There is a slight difference though. The rubbish collecter is not charged with a billion dollar/dirham asset. The cost of the a/c, the liabilities cost, the shinning jewel of Dubai, and the reputation of a worldwide corporation. Those in charge of this place need to understand that they cannot achieve their goals without a motivated and content workforce, especially in a service business.
But it' snot just the pilots, as you know. But be careful, my friend, in putting all your hopes and dreams in your Union. If need be, YOUR Union will chew you up and spit you out, just like management if it suits their aim..but better having a voice than none at all. Time and time again, unions around the world have turned their backs on their members. And that is worse than an abusive management. Ask the Americans why many of them arrived at the ME airlines, and a great majority will say because their union thought it better to not listen to their concerns. Happens a lot my friend. But again, you do have the ability to influence the wanna be managers (lifetime union reps).
But please, even though you say you spent your turn in the barrel here, save that old cliche, love it or leave it.
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This is what the UAE CAR OPS says, freely available on the GCAA website:
CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours (a) No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
Two pages before you can find the definition of operating crew member:
a crew member carrying out his/her duties in an aircraft during a flight .
There is no reference whatsoever to bunk time not counting towards those hours. However, our bosses claim that because the OMA is signed off by the GCAA, everything that is in there is "legal". I'm not a lawyer, but something doesn't smell right. EK knows it, the GCAA knows it but as they both have the same boss, nothing will change. Only pressure from other legislators might do, but don't hold your breath....
CAR-OPS 1.1125 Absolute Limits on Flying Hours (a) No person shall act as an operating crew member of the flight crew of an aircraft if at the beginning of the flight the aggregate of all his previous flight times;
(1) during the period of 28 (twenty eight) consecutive days expiring at the end of the day on which the flight begins exceeds 100 (one hundred) block hours: or during the period of 12 (twelve months) expiring at the end of the previous month exceeds 900 (nine hundred) block hours:
Two pages before you can find the definition of operating crew member:
a crew member carrying out his/her duties in an aircraft during a flight .
There is no reference whatsoever to bunk time not counting towards those hours. However, our bosses claim that because the OMA is signed off by the GCAA, everything that is in there is "legal". I'm not a lawyer, but something doesn't smell right. EK knows it, the GCAA knows it but as they both have the same boss, nothing will change. Only pressure from other legislators might do, but don't hold your breath....
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jetII,
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees
If you have been in the industry for awhile, you will know of downs and highs. Right now the industry is skyrocketing, specially in the U.S., China and elsewhere. Some places not so much. But EK has publicaly said it will report its highest profits in its almost 30 years of its existence. Will our "temporary" 92 hours reduce? NO Will overtime (productivity) be allowed? NO Will al pilots be awarded their contracted 42 days of leave? NO Will pilots get monthly credit for ground schools, sim sessions, or any required CBT? NO Do I need to continue? NO Except to say, compensation was not mentioned by this poster. We will know in a week or two whether or not EK is serious about IT'S commitment towards the employees
But announcing record profits is a meaningless statement, it is simply publicity puff - the airline is bigger than it has ever been so if we were not seeing record profits then something would be seriously wrong. A more pertinent measure would be the size of the profit margin, if you know this then you can make a judgement on how well the company is doing.
EK prides itself in being an industry leader, but refuses to acknowledge the contributions all of its employees, except for a few meaningless emails.
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6100, using your argument we can then hold you personally responsible for the racism in your country, the poverty in your country, the incarceration rate in your country, the wars waged by your country etc.
Of course, that viewpoint is absolutely ridiculous!
As is the idea that the people who have moved here to fly for EK are responsible for the ills that exist here or even agree with those ills.
Of course, that viewpoint is absolutely ridiculous!
As is the idea that the people who have moved here to fly for EK are responsible for the ills that exist here or even agree with those ills.
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6100
You've made a valid point, non of which I'd disagree with. Certainly for some on here, your comments may be a bitter pill to swallow. There will be plenty on these forums who use it to vent and to warn others of the worsening T&C's and whilst there's no harm in that, the issue I have is that the majority of the same moaners and complainers will not take their concerns further. Now is as good a time as any to write in and explain your concerns. For God's sake, if it's safety concerns you're worried about, use the Company provided Confidential Safety Reports. That's what they're there for and management don't get to see your name. It really doesn't get any easier than that!
As for unions, proceed with caution. BALPA, for example, is heavily biased towards BA and really achieved nothing for me in my 20 years other than take 1% of of my hard earned salary. Too many individuals with self serving interest, hidden agendas and management aspirations. Those selfish morons spoilt it for the hard workers on the Company Councils who had a genuine desire to help their fellow colleagues. Personally, I'm better off without them.
Harry
You've made a valid point, non of which I'd disagree with. Certainly for some on here, your comments may be a bitter pill to swallow. There will be plenty on these forums who use it to vent and to warn others of the worsening T&C's and whilst there's no harm in that, the issue I have is that the majority of the same moaners and complainers will not take their concerns further. Now is as good a time as any to write in and explain your concerns. For God's sake, if it's safety concerns you're worried about, use the Company provided Confidential Safety Reports. That's what they're there for and management don't get to see your name. It really doesn't get any easier than that!
As for unions, proceed with caution. BALPA, for example, is heavily biased towards BA and really achieved nothing for me in my 20 years other than take 1% of of my hard earned salary. Too many individuals with self serving interest, hidden agendas and management aspirations. Those selfish morons spoilt it for the hard workers on the Company Councils who had a genuine desire to help their fellow colleagues. Personally, I'm better off without them.
Harry
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Trader your post is amusing to say the least. 6100 makes some very valid points some of which may make people here feel a little uncomfortable. We are surrounded by sand and you have chosen to bury your head in it!
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Wall Street Journal article on EK crewing problem.
Broken promise
From what I understand EK use the Boeing alertness model to measure fatigue on trip combos and crew rosters. If any fatigue management system relies on it then it has to be backed up by active crew input e.g sleep diary and motion watch, sleep plans, fatigue promotion, active pilot representation at meetings etc. From what I understand jeppesen are missing one vital ingredient - data. The module uses the karolinski sleep wake predictor to measure fatigue but only uses it to a certain
degree e.g without data the output comes out seven stages less than the real programme used by the sleepy scientists. You also then need a sleepy scientist to review the content rather than a commuter programmer. So whilst it will give a reasonable average it's just that. We also know that all pilots are different!. One thing that the swp does also is measure leisure time - in case the fatigue is carrying into it - this can also be impacted by commuting the word that goes out the window as far as pilots are concerned I guess less of a problem for EK. With days off seemingly at a premium at EK the risk to the airline is that sleep debt rolls into leisure and then the crew members use any rest days e.g before flying say in the evening to catch up on day to day chores e.g doing the school run, shopping when they should be resting for flight.
You then repeat the cycle into possible fatigue issues, remembering there is a difference between sleepy ness for the occasional ripper trip and cumulative fatigue for the daily grinder or nightly as the case maybe!
From what I understand EK use the Boeing alertness model to measure fatigue on trip combos and crew rosters. If any fatigue management system relies on it then it has to be backed up by active crew input e.g sleep diary and motion watch, sleep plans, fatigue promotion, active pilot representation at meetings etc. From what I understand jeppesen are missing one vital ingredient - data. The module uses the karolinski sleep wake predictor to measure fatigue but only uses it to a certain
degree e.g without data the output comes out seven stages less than the real programme used by the sleepy scientists. You also then need a sleepy scientist to review the content rather than a commuter programmer. So whilst it will give a reasonable average it's just that. We also know that all pilots are different!. One thing that the swp does also is measure leisure time - in case the fatigue is carrying into it - this can also be impacted by commuting the word that goes out the window as far as pilots are concerned I guess less of a problem for EK. With days off seemingly at a premium at EK the risk to the airline is that sleep debt rolls into leisure and then the crew members use any rest days e.g before flying say in the evening to catch up on day to day chores e.g doing the school run, shopping when they should be resting for flight.
You then repeat the cycle into possible fatigue issues, remembering there is a difference between sleepy ness for the occasional ripper trip and cumulative fatigue for the daily grinder or nightly as the case maybe!
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Although this is probably correct:
As well as this (but this is happening from the beginning of the mankind, so nothing new here):
This is not (correct):
As mentioned before, EK is above Labour law in Dubai (it is not the subject of that law).
When you sign your contract with them you get different impression and they give that impression on purpose to mislead you. The fact is: they can do absolutely everything they want with you and your contract and nobody can do anything to them (including country's ministries, courts and other mechanisms of law enforcement).
So, actually, most of the people don't know that they are signing dummy contracts with EK which are not valid and can not help them in the case they feel tricked and cheated or when their contract is violated.
And here lies the responsibility of those (EK) managers which other airlines' managers do not have: they all know this fact and they all brutally abuse it for personal gain. The ones who refused to abuse it are long gone.
You probably have no real idea how ludicrous it sounds to outsiders when someone who is not prepared to fight their own battles expects someone else to do it for them.
It would appear that by acceptance, most of you approve of the exploited labor that builds your villa's and cleans them for you, cleans your car, serves you at Spinneys etc, but when it is your turn to be kicked in the nuts it is unacceptable.
The difference is the laws...
So if you are not happy with the laws of your adopted country...
When you sign your contract with them you get different impression and they give that impression on purpose to mislead you. The fact is: they can do absolutely everything they want with you and your contract and nobody can do anything to them (including country's ministries, courts and other mechanisms of law enforcement).
So, actually, most of the people don't know that they are signing dummy contracts with EK which are not valid and can not help them in the case they feel tricked and cheated or when their contract is violated.
And here lies the responsibility of those (EK) managers which other airlines' managers do not have: they all know this fact and they all brutally abuse it for personal gain. The ones who refused to abuse it are long gone.
Last edited by Nikita81; 12th Apr 2015 at 09:55.
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vfenext--I did not dispute the point of what goes on here at all. I dispute the concept that by choosing to work here that WE are at fault or complicit.
Claiming that WE have not fought against the other injustices and therefore have no valid cause to fight an injustice against us is not an argument..well, at least not a a good one.
Lets look at it another way. Have 6100 gone back and done anything to fight the injustices here? Does this now mean he is responsible for what occurs here?
Are the "Westerners' who buy gas for their cars responsible?
To some degree we all are, however, it is a hypocritical stand to claim that the pilots here have any responsibility while the rest, in the West, drive their SUV's and live based on an oil economy.
The crap that goes on here is appalling. But I am no more responsible for that that ANYONE else ANYWHERE else on the planet. And that will continue, as pathetic as it is, because the globe, as a whole, doesn't push for change. The same stands true for the rest of the planets injustices as well.
Claiming that WE have not fought against the other injustices and therefore have no valid cause to fight an injustice against us is not an argument..well, at least not a a good one.
Lets look at it another way. Have 6100 gone back and done anything to fight the injustices here? Does this now mean he is responsible for what occurs here?
Are the "Westerners' who buy gas for their cars responsible?
To some degree we all are, however, it is a hypocritical stand to claim that the pilots here have any responsibility while the rest, in the West, drive their SUV's and live based on an oil economy.
The crap that goes on here is appalling. But I am no more responsible for that that ANYONE else ANYWHERE else on the planet. And that will continue, as pathetic as it is, because the globe, as a whole, doesn't push for change. The same stands true for the rest of the planets injustices as well.