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Radio Discipline

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Radio Discipline

Old 3rd Jul 2014, 09:10
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Question answered...thanks..and yes..have heard, and myself been confused on occasion when the word "to" was injected into an altitude/level clearance...always preferred "descend/climb and maintain"....and re: Global Nomad's post..I was also musing about this when the other day I heard an EK on the radio, whose comms "proficiency" was below zero, and thinking to myself that of all the carriers in my two+ decades over here, I can count on one hand how many times I have heard an EK flight with comm issues...sign of the times i guess

Last edited by ironbutt57; 3rd Jul 2014 at 09:11. Reason: spell checker "corrections"
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 09:47
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Jeez nolimit, you expect to be spoon fed here as well?
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 11:09
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Explain to me how having clear and concise information in one place is being "spoon fed".

Personally, I would rather be TAUGHT the real interpretation of the 10 books we have rather than have 100 interpretations from all the know it all pilots/lawyer speak interpreters who don't have a life outside of flying at EK and sit at home and read all the manuals at EK in their spare time. Then these guys want to go to work or come on PPRUNE and spread their infinite knowledge and wisdom as "SOP" when most are totally wrong.

There is nothing "spoon fed" about that...in fact, it would correct half the problems we have in the EK training bureaucracy.
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 13:26
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry Mr. Nomad, I didn't catch your response about the charts, I was hoping for another pearl of wisdom especially about the word "gash". Is that standard phraseology or something regional?

I'm really sorry about all the spoon-feeding, but I learned in CRM to use all available resources. And you just sounded like someone who knows everything. You might say that you know pretty much all. I guess that would make you a know-it-all?

I love this thread. Cheaper entertainment than the hookers at Long's Bar during Ramadan.

I think EK pilots should start submitting reports on their colleagues, noting the flight no., time, place, and assessed level of proficiency that they heard on the radio. I mean who better to judge each other than your peers? (Reports from Australian and British crew would be of course, be considered with twice as much gravitas). EK could then design a tailored Distance Learning course (unpaid, naturally) to help clean up all these slackers who all seemed to have joined in the last six months.

*wrings hands*
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Old 3rd Jul 2014, 14:28
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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This " spoon fed " stuff seems to be a Middle East concept to avoid providing proper training and good guidance.
Most of the professional pilots here are willing to act properly but needs to be taught first what is expected from them.
What we have here is each trainer coming with a different interpretation of what he thinks is correct and make most of us confused...
And as said before , once away from work why should we spend days to try to find on our own what is the correct way for everything ?
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 04:49
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Angel

"And ATC isn't guilt free on this either. A lot of us out there have something to say or ask but it's tough with you telling us 1500 feet or better rate of descent in a hold, every. single. time. you clear us further down. That's just stupid."

Just a point out re higher rates of descent requests by ATC in the holds, This should 'normally' be used if there is a tsunami of traffic behind you and all going to the one single point/hold! (I do agree some controllers have just gotten into the habit of using it, that IS stupid). Confirm?
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Old 8th Oct 2014, 22:09
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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All we need is a NOTAM pending a note ('Minimum rate of descent 1000fpm unless instructed.') in the UAE AIP, which in turn will show on the charts for Dubai. Granted it is perhaps easier said than done in this part of the world but someone up high has to grow some balls and do something. The extra R/T loading with all these extra calls is getting silly.
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Old 2nd Aug 2015, 14:20
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Edit* sorry for dredging up an old thread, found it while searching and missed the date!
This is from the NZAIP (emphasis added)

"When climbing or descending in Classes A, C, and D airspace unless ATC has specified a climb/descent rate and/or time or place of commencement, pilots must initiate climb or descent promptly on acknowledgement of the clearance, or advise ATC so that separation from other traffic will not be compromised. The change of level should be made at an optimum rate consistent with the normal operating performance and configuration characteristics of the aircraft to 1000ft above/below the assigned level, then reduced as appropriate until the assigned level is reached. At other times in climb or descent, pilots must advise ATC if they wish to level off at an interim level or substantially change the rate of climb or descent."

I don't know if other countries have a similar rule (sounds like they don't) but in New Zealand at least 100fpm descent without advising the controller could lead to paperwork/a loss of separation.

Last edited by macbe327; 2nd Aug 2015 at 14:22. Reason: Old thread
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Old 16th Jan 2016, 10:21
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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It's not the airport you're expecting but the onward clearance e.g LAM 3A or LAM WELIN TNT DAYNE 2A etc, it was introduced to cut down the controller issuing a clearance, requiring a subsequent readback.
I don't believe there is any EK documentation on it specifically.

Last edited by Eau de Boeing; 16th Jan 2016 at 16:48. Reason: spelling
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Old 16th Jan 2016, 12:20
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Correct, the 'expected STAR' call on initial contact with London was an agreement with ATC and British Airways among some others to reduce RT workload. It's not in the AIP.

Meanwhile in Dubai, it's categorically NOT required. "Report ONLY passing level and aircraft type on first contact" (capitals are mine..) it's still amazing how the poor controllers have to ask for the type after our EK brethren spew out all sorts of crap but missing what they do actually want.

What's with 'PDC received' as well? We don't have PDC in Dubai, we have DCL and it is acknowledged 2-way with CDA message when you accept?! Maybe I'm missing something.. Why don't we report 'load sheet received, doors closed, DCL accepted and turned green on the screen, cockpit door locked and we are completely, fully ready'
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Old 16th Jan 2016, 13:49
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Before the 2012 Olympics they introduced it to ease anticipated congestion. It's not mandatory but is appreciated to avoid additional lines of RT.
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Old 16th Jan 2016, 16:12
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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But I do get a chuckle when the controllers ask FlyDubai their type, when the mandatory call has gone "missing".
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Old 16th Jan 2016, 17:21
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Speedbirdhopeful1

I disagree with your post. You say the AOI's state "ONLY report passing level and aircraft type." The AOI's state "report passing level and aircraft type." You will also notice that every time you request the D-Atis at the very bottom it tells you to "report receiving information "A" on first contact with control." So you should report passing level, type, AND current ATIS. I believe every approach control in the world wants you to acknowledge the current ATIS on first contact. Just because the AOI's stipulate you should report aircraft type and passing level does not absolve you of the responsibility to report the current ATIS.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 03:17
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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I understand the controllers , they should be dealing with Professionals and we are not able to give the only 3 items required as per the AOI page 1-40 for Dubaļ Airport arrival - ACFT callsign
- Passing level
- ACFT type
Instead of that they get plenty of information NOT required blocking the frequency for a much longer time...
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 03:30
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Again...there are 4 things. Call sign, passing level, type, and ATIS. Read the ATIS next time you get it. It quite clearly states that you are required to report receiving information "x,y,z" on first contact with control.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 04:52
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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most places just ask for an ident if they need the info...UAE is the first congested place I've seen radio time wasted on repeating these details over the airwaves
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 05:23
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Laker - DXB does not need the ATIS. Call sign, passing level, A/C type. True, other airports may require mentioning it but in DXB it clearly states it's not required. It's why we read the AOI pages. Does the approach controller confirm with every flight that doesn't mention the Atis? No.

Guys stop spewing out all the needless info. It's a waste of airtime and more confusing for everyone. KISS.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 05:24
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Laker
Again...there are 4 things. Call sign, passing level, type, and ATIS. Read the ATIS next time you get it. It quite clearly states that you are required to report receiving information "x,y,z" on first contact with control.
Are you a bit pedantic Laker?! Is this your 'thing' you like to inform us all 'for your benefit mate?'
I see your point on the ATIS but it's not stated in the AOI, and the controllers tend to say the ATIS letter back to you regardless of whether you told them it or not, along with the runway in use for some reason after you check in. Yet more unnessacary RT. The ATIS letter on arrival obsession I've only seen in Aus and the US, in Europe it's seldom asked for.. Ready to be shot down, glad we're keeping it big picture and not sweating the small stuff..
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 06:03
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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I have to agree with speedbird.

Clearly the aim of the directive in the AOI is to reduce the amount of rt in a very busy airspace. It is like the first call to departure, only c/s and altitude passing. If guys don't understand that then
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 06:12
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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Don't they wish you a Merry Christmas anymore?
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