Radio Discipline
Join Date: May 2014
Location: here and there
Age: 63
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't agree more!
But again, 500 fpm... is an expectation coming from nowhere! I'll call it a myth...
Why not writing it as per the speed control... so simple!
But again, 500 fpm... is an expectation coming from nowhere! I'll call it a myth...
Why not writing it as per the speed control... so simple!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now An example of Dubai expectation from the horses mouth. An extract from a meeting between us and them.
Minumum of 500fpm.
Speed +/_ 0Kts
Reduction 10kts / NM when being vectored.
I cant seem to insert the extract from the minutes here, but the speed control is now in the AIP if you care to look with the added caveat that non compliance will be reported to the authority. DL letter advised of this sometime in June 2011 I think.
Minumum of 500fpm.
Speed +/_ 0Kts
Reduction 10kts / NM when being vectored.
I cant seem to insert the extract from the minutes here, but the speed control is now in the AIP if you care to look with the added caveat that non compliance will be reported to the authority. DL letter advised of this sometime in June 2011 I think.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"is an expectation coming from nowhere!"
Er, no, it's an expectation coming from ATC. Do you ever listen to other people? You must be a right bloody argumentative sod to fly with at times, especially drifting down at 100' per minute for your 1000' clearance. I'm sure the controller will love giving you those precious 10 minutes and 80+ miles.
'Watch out!, they cry, Air Taxi Drivers in the sky'
Harry
Er, no, it's an expectation coming from ATC. Do you ever listen to other people? You must be a right bloody argumentative sod to fly with at times, especially drifting down at 100' per minute for your 1000' clearance. I'm sure the controller will love giving you those precious 10 minutes and 80+ miles.
'Watch out!, they cry, Air Taxi Drivers in the sky'
Harry
Join Date: May 2014
Location: here and there
Age: 63
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read...
I have read someone saying it... like a friend of mine told me that my cousin's sister...
Is there anything written as per their expectation?
They do expect a speed control, we know it now because they make it official, as simple as that!
Are you afraid of flying down (or up) at 100 fpm? is that so difficult?
If there is no ATC restrictions, why making things so difficult?
Make it the way you want, 2000fpm, 3000, 200, 100... all is authorised except very few states.
I am not saying I am doing "THE" right thing, I am saying it is legal to do it!
I have read someone saying it... like a friend of mine told me that my cousin's sister...
Is there anything written as per their expectation?
They do expect a speed control, we know it now because they make it official, as simple as that!
Are you afraid of flying down (or up) at 100 fpm? is that so difficult?
If there is no ATC restrictions, why making things so difficult?
Make it the way you want, 2000fpm, 3000, 200, 100... all is authorised except very few states.
I am not saying I am doing "THE" right thing, I am saying it is legal to do it!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: British
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest, I take time to note where the other traffic is, anticipate what the controller wants. When given a minimum rate I apply it until needs are satisfied. It's just experience and a resolution rather than conflict mentality.
We can all quote text and regulations but the truth is common aviation sense.
I judge most Mid East ATC as very good, some adequate and others less so; not unlike the people I fly with. But the truth is that is the ikea set we have is non returnable and we have to work hard together to build it.
How about an effort by each side to improve?
We can all quote text and regulations but the truth is common aviation sense.
I judge most Mid East ATC as very good, some adequate and others less so; not unlike the people I fly with. But the truth is that is the ikea set we have is non returnable and we have to work hard together to build it.
How about an effort by each side to improve?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between supple thighs
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From NATS flight safety committee.
Minimum rate of climb or descent
In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply with other operating requirements.
Minimum rate of climb or descent
In order to ensure that controllers can accurately predict flight profiles to maintain standard vertical separation between aircraft, pilots of aircraft commencing a climb or descent in accordance with an ATC Clearance should inform the controller if they anticipate that their rate of climb or descent during the level change will be less than 500 ft per minute, or if at any time during such a climb or descent their vertical speed is, in fact, less than 500 ft per minute.
This requirement applies to both the en-route phase of flight and to terminal holding above Transition Altitude.
Note: This is not a prohibition on the use of rates of climb or descent of less than 500 ft per minute where necessary to comply with other operating requirements.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sleeve, why are you quoting a NATS reference? We aren't referring to the UK here.
To those doing 100fpm 'CDAs' have you ever looked at the fuel flow compared to doing 0fpm - is it really worth it?!
To those doing 100fpm 'CDAs' have you ever looked at the fuel flow compared to doing 0fpm - is it really worth it?!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: DESDI or BUBIN
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC standards
Maybe slightly off topic here but just got back from a medical induced diversion to the sub-continent.
Despite what is frequently written here, we were helped out in every way, given weather avoidance, high speed, direct to the airfield and a tight circuit, resulting in us being able to transfer the sick pax to proper medical care within the golden hour.
I won't even mention the fact that they managed to turn around a dugong in less than an hour and get us on our way again after a very long night.
It is good to see that when the sh*t hits the fan, the guys out there are just as professional as I would have expected in other major airports.
Thanks again
Now back to CDA's.......
Despite what is frequently written here, we were helped out in every way, given weather avoidance, high speed, direct to the airfield and a tight circuit, resulting in us being able to transfer the sick pax to proper medical care within the golden hour.
I won't even mention the fact that they managed to turn around a dugong in less than an hour and get us on our way again after a very long night.
It is good to see that when the sh*t hits the fan, the guys out there are just as professional as I would have expected in other major airports.
Thanks again
Now back to CDA's.......
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tightseat
Agreed, just wished more applied that rationale. Sticking in VNAV with a 2000+ rate of climb as you approach head on traffic is poor airmanship. You know you ain't going to get climb until opposite direction has passed so reduce your climb rate! How you do it is up to you, just as long as you do it! Then people wonder why they have a TCAS traffic advisory, hit V/S and then just stare blankly at the FMA as the aircraft goes into ALT HOLD, maybe hitting V/S a few more times for good measure!.
Jeeze, I'm getting old, grumpy and need a friggin holiday!
Harry
Agreed, just wished more applied that rationale. Sticking in VNAV with a 2000+ rate of climb as you approach head on traffic is poor airmanship. You know you ain't going to get climb until opposite direction has passed so reduce your climb rate! How you do it is up to you, just as long as you do it! Then people wonder why they have a TCAS traffic advisory, hit V/S and then just stare blankly at the FMA as the aircraft goes into ALT HOLD, maybe hitting V/S a few more times for good measure!.
Jeeze, I'm getting old, grumpy and need a friggin holiday!
Harry
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't worry Harry
We have a "Classic" cross in BAH FIR with Qatari inbounds at FL330 and UT500 RULEX traffic at FL320, and you guessed it........15 miles before the cross......QTR123 request descent.
Airmanship???????
Airmanship???????
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Dubai
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gee it's fun to read the latest post in a five page thread and see how little it has to do with the original topic!
I agree with the controller who started this one - we need to listen out better sometimes. But so do you.
I've long thought that if airlines using Dubai would simply read the AOI pages for the call requirements to departure and arrival, half the clutter would disappear. This is ESPECIALLY relevant for Emirates since it's our base. I heard an EK flight not long ago call arrival with call sign/passing level/cleared level/atis/qnh and squawk. I mean, seriously buddy? You live here. There's no excuse for that. This kind of clutter just ties up the frequency.
This next bit isn't racist but all of us who have flown to the sub-continent know the radio discipline there is terrible and they bring that into Dubai, tying up the radio here as well. Boys if you can only manage one thing, please wait your turn, that's all. Just do that.
And ATC isn't guilt free on this either. A lot of us out there have something to say or ask but it's tough with you telling us 1500 feet or better rate of descent in a hold, every. single. time. you clear us further down. That's just stupid.
So yeah, calls get missed but it's a shared blame I believe.
Oh and one more thing....Dubai is using min separation on final now and landing clearances are coming late. So if you don't keep it brief and wait your turn on that frequency people are going to be going around and it'll be your fault.
I agree with the controller who started this one - we need to listen out better sometimes. But so do you.
I've long thought that if airlines using Dubai would simply read the AOI pages for the call requirements to departure and arrival, half the clutter would disappear. This is ESPECIALLY relevant for Emirates since it's our base. I heard an EK flight not long ago call arrival with call sign/passing level/cleared level/atis/qnh and squawk. I mean, seriously buddy? You live here. There's no excuse for that. This kind of clutter just ties up the frequency.
This next bit isn't racist but all of us who have flown to the sub-continent know the radio discipline there is terrible and they bring that into Dubai, tying up the radio here as well. Boys if you can only manage one thing, please wait your turn, that's all. Just do that.
And ATC isn't guilt free on this either. A lot of us out there have something to say or ask but it's tough with you telling us 1500 feet or better rate of descent in a hold, every. single. time. you clear us further down. That's just stupid.
So yeah, calls get missed but it's a shared blame I believe.
Oh and one more thing....Dubai is using min separation on final now and landing clearances are coming late. So if you don't keep it brief and wait your turn on that frequency people are going to be going around and it'll be your fault.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: U.S.
Age: 52
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ seaman
I doesn't mean he's not professional when asking for confirmation of his readback. There are companies that require you to confirm every instruction by ATC when the other guy on the flightdeck takes a controlled rest break. So he maybe just followed the SOPs.
Could be as well two stupid guys on the flightdeck...
I doesn't mean he's not professional when asking for confirmation of his readback. There are companies that require you to confirm every instruction by ATC when the other guy on the flightdeck takes a controlled rest break. So he maybe just followed the SOPs.
Could be as well two stupid guys on the flightdeck...
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ironbutt, in the UK the terminology is 'descend TO altitude 3000 feet' but 'descent flight level one hundred' however in Australia, terminology is 'descend to' for levels and altitudes I understand. So it's probably the usual mix of country specific mixes that all come together in this place.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Africa
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2.3.12 ATC-Assignment of Levels and Altitudes Levels shall be assigned/reported as follows • For altitudes the word FEET shall follow the level indication. The word ALTITUDE may precede the level indication. • For flight levels, the level indication shall be preceded by the term FLIGHT LEVEL
Use of the Terms To and For According to ICAO PANS-ATM a level assignment may be given as follows:
Altitude ABC 123 CLIMB TO 5000 FEET Flight Level ABC 123 CLIMB TO FLIGHT LEVEL 150
However several countries have banned the use of the words TO and FOR in connection with the assignment / report of levels due to the risk of confusion with the corresponding numbers TWO and FOUR. In the following chapters the official ICAO wording is used. For further information on country specific RT phraseology please refer to the appropriate CRAR.
Use of the Terms To and For According to ICAO PANS-ATM a level assignment may be given as follows:
Altitude ABC 123 CLIMB TO 5000 FEET Flight Level ABC 123 CLIMB TO FLIGHT LEVEL 150
However several countries have banned the use of the words TO and FOR in connection with the assignment / report of levels due to the risk of confusion with the corresponding numbers TWO and FOUR. In the following chapters the official ICAO wording is used. For further information on country specific RT phraseology please refer to the appropriate CRAR.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Global Nomad
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK comms have been shocking in the past, improved a little 5 years ago but have recently slumped again. Frankly it's indicative of the standards, good operators don't make gash radio calls.
On the subject of asking a controller to confirm every frequency, what about having half an idea as to what the next frequency is by (shock) taking a chart out. OK, the Indian controllers are appalling at verbal diarrhoea but if you don't understand them just ask them to repeat their message slowly. I'm a native English speaker and if I can't understand them, it has to be their inappropriate pace of delivery. I don't second guess anything and as much as it frustrates them to repeat it, subsequent calls to you will be far easier to understand once they get the message to slow down.
An FO I was with recently insisted that the controller had given us a specific routing, I asked him to get the controller to repeat the instruction slowly. The instructions bore no resemblance to what the FO was trying to convince me he had heard.
On the subject of asking a controller to confirm every frequency, what about having half an idea as to what the next frequency is by (shock) taking a chart out. OK, the Indian controllers are appalling at verbal diarrhoea but if you don't understand them just ask them to repeat their message slowly. I'm a native English speaker and if I can't understand them, it has to be their inappropriate pace of delivery. I don't second guess anything and as much as it frustrates them to repeat it, subsequent calls to you will be far easier to understand once they get the message to slow down.
An FO I was with recently insisted that the controller had given us a specific routing, I asked him to get the controller to repeat the instruction slowly. The instructions bore no resemblance to what the FO was trying to convince me he had heard.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Up in the air
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know about other carriers/fleets, but why are we not using a hot-mike intercom on the EK 777? In a busy environment it doesn't really help that you can hear what the guy next to you is saying either. I understand nobody wants to sit with the headset for 10 hours in cruise but for taxi, take-off, approach and landing it would be beneficial IMHO...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the subject of asking a controller to confirm every frequency, what about having half an idea as to what the next frequency is by (shock) taking a chart out.
Keep the great suggestions coming. What is a "gash" call? Sounds naughty.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dubai
Age: 53
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I bet ORD can't wait for Emirates to start flying there, the 2nd busiest airport in the world.
A busy ground controller will spit out rapid fire taxi instructions to numerous aircraft, and each is expected to respond and move in turn. If a pilot misses a clearance, or fails to accurately read it back right away, they will be told to taxi to the "penalty box" and to sit and wait for the controller to have time to re-issue a clearance. As busy as O'Hare always is, this sit is truly a penalty.
Be ready for 6-7 taxiway clearances at a time and let's not have the amateurs start with that is too many to handle. If it is indeed too much please bid away from ORD and save EK the embarrassment.
A busy ground controller will spit out rapid fire taxi instructions to numerous aircraft, and each is expected to respond and move in turn. If a pilot misses a clearance, or fails to accurately read it back right away, they will be told to taxi to the "penalty box" and to sit and wait for the controller to have time to re-issue a clearance. As busy as O'Hare always is, this sit is truly a penalty.
Be ready for 6-7 taxiway clearances at a time and let's not have the amateurs start with that is too many to handle. If it is indeed too much please bid away from ORD and save EK the embarrassment.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Permanent JET LAGGG
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder how well a progressive taxi request would go over in ORD?
Its been a while, but I don't think a 777 would fit in the box? Maybe send them to the scenic box, but that would be even a bigger blunder.
Its been a while, but I don't think a 777 would fit in the box? Maybe send them to the scenic box, but that would be even a bigger blunder.
