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Radio Discipline

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Radio Discipline

Old 17th Jan 2016, 08:13
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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I am in agreement with Laker. The info after checking in is all on the ATIS, so no need for the controller to mention altimeter, expect runway xx, etc, etc. Of course it is mandatory here for controllers to repeat the ATIS information, even when you have the latest and correct airport ATIS. It would be a drastic change, but mentioning you have ATIS "ALPHA", tells him/her, you have the latest altimeter, know the expected runway, current WX. and the correct altimeter setting. Just repeating what is already known. No need for more R/T. THE busiest air spaces in the world seem to make it work. And why say aircraft type......I'm guessing it's all on their strip. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. Well it is done in the UK, so it must be done around here.

Talk about a lot of wasted chatter. Talk to me if there is a change in the ATIS or a different altimeter. "New ATIS is BRAVO. Acknowledge with an ident". It would have to be a change in what is mandatory, and a change in the thinking of those with pay grades way above controllers and pilots. But I would hope the ATC equipment is modern enough to handle such a "drastic" change.

Think of all the R/T the controller would not have to do if there wasn't all this mandatory superfluous repeated and already known information.

And Saltaire, you want to KISS? Try this; call sign, passing level, and ATIS. Controller's response; Identified..and any further instructions. Too me, that's your K.I.S.S.

Last edited by TangoUniform; 17th Jan 2016 at 08:23.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 08:16
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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The verification of type is due to wake separation I believe. Many airlines use repetitive flight plans and may not be accurate. Last minute substitution etc could have drastic consequences for airlines with medium/heavy fleets for example if the controller is separating based on the wrong category.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 08:38
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Speedbird, Of course you are correct. But easily taken care of with SUPER, HEAVY, or nothing after the call sign. Would also help a little with call sign confusion. I would like to know from some of the lurking controllers if it is on your strip and if so, how often is it incorrect.

Im surprised that the Super, Heavy, is not mandatory. In that, if the type is not identifiable on the strip or screen, will a controller remember type twenty minutes later whilst balancing twenty or so aircraft at one time? With adding the classification to the call sign, twenty minutes later he will at least know his separation requirement.....and so will you. All adding up to increased S/A. You won't have to ask what type are we following and he won't have to respond. All reducing R/T.

Too much caffeine after flying through the night. Fun discussion.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 12:31
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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So much for keeping it simple TU - too much caffeine is right.

I'll teach and stick with what the AOI references. It's worked so far without any further questions from ATC. We need less unnecessary RT, not more. ATC approach will invariably will give you the current ATIS, QNH, and runway in use.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 13:20
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Salt,
Yes sir, you are correct. That is what the AOI says, and those are the procedures that are mandatory to follow. Absolutely no argument there. Those are the expectations and that is what should be done.

My point is there is a lot of superfluous R/T that COULD be done away with if the procedures from the GCAA, and those around that make the rules could see the efficiency of call sign, passing altitude and ATIS. But it's more or less working with current procedures, so no reason change of course. Lastly, ATIS was "invented" so the controllers did not have to give you wx, runway, altimeter etc. to reduce their workload. These procedures just add to it by repeating info on the ATIS. At least they're not adding current weather on initial contact.

But Laker has a point. What takes priority, AOI pages or ATIS? The problem is, there is no difference between departure and arrival D-ATIS here.

Guess that's enough of a discussion about ATIS. Let's get back on topic on how R/T is the US is the abysmal and how it just doesn't work. That's always good for two or three pages of discussion.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 13:45
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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The entire region is a mass of confusion - UAE can't decide amongst themselves if the next callsign is "Dubai Approach", "Dubai Arrivals" or "Dubai" when they transfer a flight onward.
easily taken care of with SUPER, HEAVY, or nothing after the call sign
That wouldn't appear to be enough because they seem to require differentiation between, for example, 200 and 300 series 777s.
The problem with the AOI is it's written by a very cheap provider and therefore errors and omissions are regularly found in it. It's not surprising the AOI missed the fact that ATC wants the ATIS designator included in first transmission. It's not for pilots to decide what's written on the ATIS can be ignored. Blame the Trg Dept - many of these calls are being made by newbs.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 15:09
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Speedbird,

Again it's written DIRECTLY ON the ATIS. Sorry to resort to caps. But I'm not pulling this out of thin air. Read the whole thing next time. I understand that the AOI is your bible but the ATIS clearly sates "On first contact with approach advise having information...." Are you going to ignore that instruction because LIDO didn't include that statement in the AOI's? Lots of AOI's don't state the need to report ATIS on first contact but you still have to do it. The instruction is on the ATIS itself. AOI's generally include things that are region specific or non standard. Not basic aviation. If it helps I've asked a couple trainers in the EK training department because i've seen this argument a few times. They both looked at me like an idiot and said of course you have to give them the ATIS on first contact.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 15:26
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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It would be nice if someone in ATC would chime in here. My understanding, even though the ATIS mentions to report on first contact, it's not required. The AOI gives more specific guidance to simply mention call sign, passing level and A/C type. Why would they specifically write this in the AOI? To reduce R/T transmissions perhaps?

I have never mentioned the ATIS on first contact with dxb approach. Not one controller has ever asked or questioned us for the current ATIS.

Wouldn't it be nice if they all were like DXB director. Call sign. Follow instructions thereafter....

Local ATC units need to give airlines more specific guidance. There is far too much variation of R/T information being passed on from both sides. We have pilots spew out just about every parameter to approach they can muster in one transmission ( except for passing altitude ) only for them to come back and simply ask " EK ... what is your passing altitude? " How many times have you heard that? Many I would imagine.

I'm sticking with the AOI for now. Less R/T

Last edited by Saltaire; 17th Jan 2016 at 15:50.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 16:11
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Saltaire - ask and ye shall receive!

dubaigong is correct - a\c type is required as many regional operators regularly swap aircraft types on repetitive plans - often switching between vortex categories. Separation losses have occurred due to incorrect information - cue knee-jerk by GCAA, ie - REQUIREMENT to check type (except Flydubai / Airarabia who only operate one type).

Passing level is also required to verify mode c readout. It shouldn't be, as you are all coming (to Dubai) from a radar environment where it will have already been checked but the GCAA disagrees........ again!

No one does it for fun - all is mandated by local regs.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 16:18
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And ATIS mate? or No ATIS?
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 16:24
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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only requirements are to give / verify QNH and type of approach - runway doesn't change that much but , for example, during 30L closures, we need to use RNAV approach to 30R as much as possible (helps the tower flowers with holding point allocation) and many operators either can't fly the RNAV or wrongly assume ILS approach as standard.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 17:48
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you. 👍 No Atis.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 18:59
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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But shouldn't that be said/read on what type of approach on the ATIS? OMDB D-ATIS doesn't have enough info on it. It's more of a departure ATIS. Secondly, by using category identifiers (super, etc.) as done elsewhere, that would preclude more chatter WRT the aircraft type for wake separation.

Not saying WHAT has to be done around here, just saying there is a more efficient and safer (less R/T requirements) way to do it. Busiest airports in the world have been doing it that way for decades and decades with zero issues. But don't try and change anything around here, can't be done. And everyone who flies here regular should know the game and adhere to it.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 21:25
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Laker
Speedbird,

Again it's written DIRECTLY ON the ATIS. Sorry to resort to caps. But I'm not pulling this out of thin air. Read the whole thing next time. I understand that the AOI is your bible but the ATIS clearly sates "On first contact with approach advise having information...." Are you going to ignore that instruction because LIDO didn't include that statement in the AOI's? Lots of AOI's don't state the need to report ATIS on first contact but you still have to do it. The instruction is on the ATIS itself. AOI's generally include things that are region specific or non standard. Not basic aviation. If it helps I've asked a couple trainers in the EK training department because i've seen this argument a few times. They both looked at me like an idiot and said of course you have to give them the ATIS on first contact.
Good that you asked the EK trainers. They are always correct.

I asked the same question to a DXB approach controller and he said that the ATIS doesn't matter.
All he wants is callsign, AC type and passing level. If you want to give the ATIS code, that's fine, but it's not required. Just don't give anything more than that.

And yes, you are right that it is mentioned in the ATIS to report it, but I'm sure no one bothered to remove it from the standard part of the message, because they didn't expect pilots to make a fuss about it.
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Old 17th Jan 2016, 22:51
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Same here, the last EK CRM course had an approach controller present and he said ATIS is not required. Something about that note to report info XYZ received being there as standard for the departure ATIS, which we give to them via DCL anyway which is our 'first contact'. I guess Laker also likes to confirm he's received the ATIS again to delivery and also ground just to be sure?
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Old 18th Jan 2016, 03:03
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by speedbirdhopeful1
Same here, the last EK CRM course had an approach controller present and he said ATIS is not required. Something about that note to report info XYZ received being there as standard for the departure ATIS, which we give to them via DCL anyway which is our 'first contact'. I guess Laker also likes to confirm he's received the ATIS again to delivery and also ground just to be sure?
No I don't. I notify them that I have the current ATIS via DCL on departure. On arrival I notify approach on first contact that I have the current information as instructed by the ATIS and from what I've heard from ATC and the EK training department. I've also had a Dubai ATC in the jumpsuit a few years ago and asked the same question and received a different answer. But apparently he and the EK instructors were wrong. I'm not sure how complying with a written direction and reporting having information 'x,y,z' is "making a fuss." I personally couldn't care less. To me the whole region is a mess. I just try my best to comply, not make waves, collect a paycheck, and hopefully leave and never come back someday soon. Like anything in Dubai there are conflicting directives and nobody wants to bother to clear it up. I do find it funny that OMDB ATC starts a thread complaining about EK pilots not operating to standard yet OMDB ATC gives conflicting directions to something as simple as what's required upon initial contact.
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Old 18th Jan 2016, 03:35
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Well, from experience, if you DON'T tell them what ATIS you've received, they reply with "Information XXX current", so in practice including it cuts down RT traffic.

And if they DON'T want it, they can take it off the ATIS.
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Old 18th Jan 2016, 04:18
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Regardless of what you say ATC always give the QNH, approach type and runway in use, which you have to acknowledge. So why bother waste your breath and tell them you have ATIS X,Y,Z? It's just another example of those 'special' UAE procedures.
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Old 18th Jan 2016, 04:22
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Wiz- I beg to differ. They never seem to give the Atis code, they always give the qnh and runway approach in use.
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Old 18th Jan 2016, 04:59
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Depends on the individual I guess Rex as sometimes they give the ATIS code and sometimes they don't! Seems to me don't is the more usual... As you say...
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