Radio Discipline
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sands ATC
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radio Discipline
I have mulled over whether or not I should address this issue on this forum, but after last night's shift it needs to be said.
Why is it that in this part of the world radio discipline is so poor?
As a controller I find it incredible that I have to call an aircraft 3 and 4 times to get their attention. An observation here is that the more automated the aircraft, or the higher up the foodchain the operator is, the less likely the pilot is to answer on the first call!
I cannot believe that this disrespect (for that is what it is) is shown by pilots at the other end of the flight - in Europe or the States - yet it seems to be very prevalent in the Middle East. I've heard excuses, for example, it is at the end of a 12 hour flight etc, but it happens on outbound flights as well.
I know that sometimes ATC radios might not be the best, but surely professionalism dictates that as a pilot you should be more vigilant at such times.
So guys let's work together - listen out.
Rant over.
Why is it that in this part of the world radio discipline is so poor?
As a controller I find it incredible that I have to call an aircraft 3 and 4 times to get their attention. An observation here is that the more automated the aircraft, or the higher up the foodchain the operator is, the less likely the pilot is to answer on the first call!
I cannot believe that this disrespect (for that is what it is) is shown by pilots at the other end of the flight - in Europe or the States - yet it seems to be very prevalent in the Middle East. I've heard excuses, for example, it is at the end of a 12 hour flight etc, but it happens on outbound flights as well.
I know that sometimes ATC radios might not be the best, but surely professionalism dictates that as a pilot you should be more vigilant at such times.
So guys let's work together - listen out.
Rant over.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: here and there
Age: 64
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe because the guys are just tired, after a 5 days shift, a 12hours or mini rest at the base after a long night turn around... and starting again...
Missing calls when we are tired is so easy! at the beginning or at the end of a flight!
Missing calls when we are tired is so easy! at the beginning or at the end of a flight!
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're right. This is a common exchange:
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, UAE/Bahrain/Baghdad???"
Pilot: "EK 123, go ahead."
Two nights ago it was someone 'super' with a really cool sounding drawl coming back from Munich, reading back clearances like, "Three one zero six zero." It sounded so cool.
RT standards here are woeful and yet we have people defending the standard of recent joiners in the pay review thread and others. Mind you some of the defenders are trainers who teach them and sign them off so make of it what you will.
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."
ATC: "EK 123, UAE/Bahrain/Baghdad???"
Pilot: "EK 123, go ahead."
Two nights ago it was someone 'super' with a really cool sounding drawl coming back from Munich, reading back clearances like, "Three one zero six zero." It sounded so cool.
RT standards here are woeful and yet we have people defending the standard of recent joiners in the pay review thread and others. Mind you some of the defenders are trainers who teach them and sign them off so make of it what you will.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Boldly Going Nowhere
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A common practise by DXB GND:
"Emirates 123" (with no further info)
Should normally be responded to with:
"Station calling Emirates 123 on 118.75, go ahead with call sign"
Takes up valuable frequency time as the controller has to make a proper call to the required aircraft.
"Emirates 123" (with no further info)
Should normally be responded to with:
"Station calling Emirates 123 on 118.75, go ahead with call sign"
Takes up valuable frequency time as the controller has to make a proper call to the required aircraft.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Dubai
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I sadly agree with ATC on this, last night I heard the poor UAE guy say in an almost resigned way "level passing?" And this is home base traffic. Even my 'other half' did the same so I became one of the 'crew of shame' (we had a discussion) but it pains me to micromanage things like call sign read back and standard radio calls.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SA
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wake up ground controllers
I will add to what FFf said, after being told to told to contact ground by dlv I normally say "emirates 123" only to be responded to with a "with a Pass your message" response from a whining oz (female) controller.
They should know that ek 123 is at stand b21 and by contacting them we are requesting up push and start.
Controllers please wake up!
They should know that ek 123 is at stand b21 and by contacting them we are requesting up push and start.
Controllers please wake up!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Pilot Grinder
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC do a good job here boys and girls, it is a serious lack of discipline and professionalism to be constantly missing radio calls. Do you think a crew would get away with missing several calls in say the London or JFK terminal area? Then why the complacency and lack of effort in DXB?
The radio clarity and accent in DXB is not an excuse.
14 hour flight..... how far is LAX, do you behave the same in the LAX terminal area??? probably not.
There is varying standards in all departments whether ATCO's or pilots but for God's sake do we have to have "comin down", "with a flash", "12 point 3 for 7" sounds good in Texas but pleeeeeze!
Are these the same "cool cats" that whine on here and in the ASR summaries each week???
Just too cool for school and know it all..... ah to be so talented as the few
The radio clarity and accent in DXB is not an excuse.
14 hour flight..... how far is LAX, do you behave the same in the LAX terminal area??? probably not.
There is varying standards in all departments whether ATCO's or pilots but for God's sake do we have to have "comin down", "with a flash", "12 point 3 for 7" sounds good in Texas but pleeeeeze!
Are these the same "cool cats" that whine on here and in the ASR summaries each week???
Just too cool for school and know it all..... ah to be so talented as the few
Originally Posted by CAYNINE
The radio clarity and accent in DXB is not an excuse.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC do a great job here but then they clear you to cross 30L or line up on 30R, expecting you to make it quick, but leave the freaking red lights ON???? Every time! Expeditious movement is expected of us but this red light thing is not rocket science. Please ATC switch off the red lights on time as this nanny airline won't allow the pilot to start building up momentum on a 300 ton aircraft until the light is out.
Amusing. I've even heard US ATCOs pulling their hair out at their own pilots not using callsigns, not reading back clearances properly and it has to be repeated, etc. Why do they have to include instructions in the ATIS teaching pilots that the callsign must be used if US RT is so good?
I find the U.S R.T the most effective and efficient way of radio.
Amusing. I've even heard US ATCOs pulling their hair out at their own pilots not using callsigns, not reading back clearances properly and it has to be repeated, etc. Why do they have to include instructions in the ATIS teaching pilots that the callsign must be used if US RT is so good?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The attitude of some controllers throughout the Gulf can at times be rather agressive I must admit. However, I also agree that the standard of RT and the lack of RT discipline by some aircraft operating in the Gulf can also be beyond limits of minimum acceptable. I am sorry to have to say that some of the most non-standard RT does come from a few of the North Americans. They read back partial instructions without even using their callsign, unacceptable.
I will admit that I make mistakes on the radio but I try to be standard at all times. It is poor professionalism when either end of the radio offer anything but "standard" phraseology in an acceptable manner. There is a hidden anger and frustration behind some people on the radio and a little more patience and effort to be professional should be considered when going to work.
With many mixed nationalities in the vast majority of middle east cockpits, they do not speak fluent English lvl 6. However, it is not all the cockpits problems as there are controllers from the Netherlands who are not always the easiest to understand, Australians who seem to have zero tolerance as well as some female European controllers. When operating in the M/E a few people seem to talk on the radio like the way they drive thier SUVs (it's all about me attitude).
I will say that there is tiredness and there is fatigue and both ARE on either end of the microphone, we have to over come our issues and deal with it and remain professional and make standard calls. I am not writing this for any other reason but for those who read it to be standard and have respect to make all our time on the airwaves safe and easier.
I will admit that I make mistakes on the radio but I try to be standard at all times. It is poor professionalism when either end of the radio offer anything but "standard" phraseology in an acceptable manner. There is a hidden anger and frustration behind some people on the radio and a little more patience and effort to be professional should be considered when going to work.
With many mixed nationalities in the vast majority of middle east cockpits, they do not speak fluent English lvl 6. However, it is not all the cockpits problems as there are controllers from the Netherlands who are not always the easiest to understand, Australians who seem to have zero tolerance as well as some female European controllers. When operating in the M/E a few people seem to talk on the radio like the way they drive thier SUVs (it's all about me attitude).
I will say that there is tiredness and there is fatigue and both ARE on either end of the microphone, we have to over come our issues and deal with it and remain professional and make standard calls. I am not writing this for any other reason but for those who read it to be standard and have respect to make all our time on the airwaves safe and easier.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: timbuktu
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Communication is Communication. If you are from OZ you have a certain set of "standard RT", if you are from the UK you have a certain set of "standard RT", and so on and so on.
Come to Emirates and you have every dominant ego tripping nationality who thinks that there way of speaking on the radio is the ONLY way. Look at the CCI pages for US destinations and most other English speaking destinations outside of the UK and Australia, all of them say "nonstandard RT". What gives you the right to come here and dictate your standard RT manual on the rest of us? When I came here I had never heard of flight level two hundred. It was flight level two zero zero but because I have some comprehension of the English language I can understand what is being said and don't try to correct those who were trained to say things that way. Also, I have never heard of "charlie charlie" which seems to be used here a lot also.
Question for the ATC folks.
Do you prefer when guys call you with "emirates 123, good morning" and then wait for you to reply for them to pass their message
OR
Since you are sitting there monitoring the radio and that is one of your primary jobs, do you just prefer for an aircraft to call and pass the full message upon first call up.
Come to Emirates and you have every dominant ego tripping nationality who thinks that there way of speaking on the radio is the ONLY way. Look at the CCI pages for US destinations and most other English speaking destinations outside of the UK and Australia, all of them say "nonstandard RT". What gives you the right to come here and dictate your standard RT manual on the rest of us? When I came here I had never heard of flight level two hundred. It was flight level two zero zero but because I have some comprehension of the English language I can understand what is being said and don't try to correct those who were trained to say things that way. Also, I have never heard of "charlie charlie" which seems to be used here a lot also.
Question for the ATC folks.
Do you prefer when guys call you with "emirates 123, good morning" and then wait for you to reply for them to pass their message
OR
Since you are sitting there monitoring the radio and that is one of your primary jobs, do you just prefer for an aircraft to call and pass the full message upon first call up.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sands ATC
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I work airspace north of the UAE so what goes on with OMDB GMC, or the BUBIN hold, doesn't hassle me and those are procedures / issues for Dubai to work through.
Also my issue is not whether the phraseologies are correct, or whether FAA phraseology is better than the ICAO version. Although these may be valid discussion point, both those arguments pre-suppose the pilot has actually answered the ATC.
I am referring to the lack of active listening out / monitoring the frequency. The numerous calls just to elicit a response, and then generally the readback is incorrect.
Heaven help if one day we have to give someone avoiding action in the form of an immediate turn...
Also my issue is not whether the phraseologies are correct, or whether FAA phraseology is better than the ICAO version. Although these may be valid discussion point, both those arguments pre-suppose the pilot has actually answered the ATC.
I am referring to the lack of active listening out / monitoring the frequency. The numerous calls just to elicit a response, and then generally the readback is incorrect.
Heaven help if one day we have to give someone avoiding action in the form of an immediate turn...
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: i'm in the parking lot
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PDC Readback........don't get me started !!
WTF good is a PDC if you must call and read it back
No rants on controllers, but those who issue a clearance, then we read back, then issue another clearance, and we read back, and sometimes a THIRD....c'mon, really?? just give me my level, heading, and clearance limit all in one statement.....I can figure it out.
WTF good is a PDC if you must call and read it back
No rants on controllers, but those who issue a clearance, then we read back, then issue another clearance, and we read back, and sometimes a THIRD....c'mon, really?? just give me my level, heading, and clearance limit all in one statement.....I can figure it out.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PDC Readback........don't get me started !!
WTF good is a PDC if you must call and read it back
WTF good is a PDC if you must call and read it back
and it should be no diiiiferent nywhere else!Seriously for a short second....I agree with the previous posters, shocking shocking RT discipline, barely a 2 in my book (it's a small book).
But then today EK 521, 531, 571, 621, all on frequency taking each other's calls due to the controllers poor use of his boom mike....and accent dear I say it, even I had trouble picking up what he was saying (with a completely different flight number)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes pilot RT can be poor, the "PDC received" and not giving your aircraft type to approach are my 2 pet hates.
However being told to "line up and be ready immediate" then forgetting to put the stop bars down happens all too often and requires an unnecessary RT call from us.
However being told to "line up and be ready immediate" then forgetting to put the stop bars down happens all too often and requires an unnecessary RT call from us.
