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EK Raises New-Hire Bond to 5 yrs / $45,000 USD

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EK Raises New-Hire Bond to 5 yrs / $45,000 USD

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Old 21st May 2014, 08:21
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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After 7 years you get 100% of the A-fund as well.
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Old 21st May 2014, 10:28
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Angel Bonding vs bondage

Outatowner

it wasn't an attempt at a wind up it was me phrasing it badly. You are of course absolutely correct. It will not move me up the seniority list per se. What I meant was that it will make me more valuable to the airline. That increases our Ts and Cs in the long term.

To that end I think it makes people think about coming here and committing rather than just giving it a go which is a practice I personally don't think the airline or anyone else should have to pay for.

I fly frequently with people who tell me how terrible life is here, I frequently think what an easy life they have had.

I'm not saying life here could not be better very easily for little effort, I am not saying that it is without frustrations but it is better than pretty much every where else on the planet for me and my ilk. So if someone cares about how much the bond is with the Ts and Cs on offer i.e they are worried about being able to leave in the first 5 yrs of being here then let them stay at home.

BigGeordie Having to increase the bond is indicative of how much less desirable the job has become. Fact is they shouldn't need to bond people to get them to stay.
I disagree, I think the bond is indicative of how unreliable and how unwilling to commit, and how much less professional pilots are becoming.

I think it should however work both ways. I.e We sign our contracts and guarantee (financially) to stay for 3-5 even 10 yrs as the airline wishes. If we leave they get money back however if we stay and fulfil time X then we should get a suitable bonus for being loyal pilots. The reality is though I don't really get why someone would leave here voluntarily and as such don't really see it as any great hardship and signed my bond quite happily when I arrived a few years ago.
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Old 21st May 2014, 10:41
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I disagree, I think the bond is indicative of how unreliable and how unwilling to commit, and how much less professional pilots are becoming.
There are 2 ways (at least) of responding to that statement.

The first response is to state that, as a DEC in EK, the F/Os I have flown with so far were, almost without exception, some of the best I have flown with in over 33 years of professional aviation. Keen to learn, good stick and rudder skills, sociable on layovers and generally trying to make the best of whatever the sand pit throws at them.

The second is to say that if standards are dropping overall - well you gets what you pay for!

The reality is probably somewhere between the two.
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Old 21st May 2014, 11:17
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Angel

Bananas

You misunderstand my main thrust. My reference in pilots professionality is not implying pilots ability to operate in any shape or form. I also do not refer to their ability to party/ be sociable. I refer to their ways of doing business.

Some pilots think it acceptable to take a type rating or command and leave at short notice. Some pilots like above in this very thread are asking about how they can be pursued or not outside of UAE.

You get to read the contract before you sign it. If you think the conditions too onerous then don't sign. Now I accept that the discussion is not about that per se it is about reasonability of EK to go for a 5 yr bond.

My take on this is it will put off the uncommitted, i think lack of commitment to your firm is unprofessional. The right candidate will want what is of offer and thus will have no issue signing.

If there is then a shortage of the right applicants then I think agrees with your second point and makes my point. They will have to make the Ts and Cs better for us all.

VT
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Old 21st May 2014, 11:33
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Well, the company is getting $45,000 of our loyalty over five years. When do we start getting our "suitable bonus for being loyal pilots"? Unless you think getting to keep the company's donation to our provident fund (which is supposed to be part of our package anyway) after 7 years is a generous 'bonus'? Or are you hanging on for your free watch after 20 years?

And don't get me started on the fact that a reasonably large group of pilots aren't bonded at all and have no problem leaving when they feel like it, sometimes straight after a command course.
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Old 21st May 2014, 11:41
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Vortex,

Admire your positivity and your like for the job, but it it reflects the fact that you have not been here very long.

You see we also signed the bond and the contract and during that three years here is what happened to my contract BUT my bond stayed the same.

1) they increased the OT threshold from 78-92 hrs - massive pay cut.
2) they imposed a DEWA limit (unenforced until they decide otherwise - but nonetheless disgraceful considering it was in contract)
3) they cancelled my ALT destination in the US and made me pay for my family from Co. destination to my home city.(this alone is a 20,000dhs hit because I cannot book these until roster publication to maximize time at home - during peak a last minute ticket is huge, if I book early and change - the change fees are exorbitant & yes I get charged $100s for bags)
4)they made me pay for a UAE ID work visa for me and my family even though it's mandatory & work related

I'll say nothing about the tone deaf Comms received throughout & punitive disciplinary culture.

During recent times for bonded members they have changed the Staff travel (for the worse) & decreased manning on ULRs for the worse.

Do I like my job? Yes.

Would I like my contract respected - most definitely. Because the only 'union' I have to enforce my rights is that piece of paper - which if you review points above - can and will be changed at the Co.s whim.

Your whole premise is based on reading contract & signing. I did and it didn't work.

Just sayin.

f.

Last edited by fliion; 21st May 2014 at 11:53.
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Old 21st May 2014, 11:51
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Angel Supply and Demand

I fear sadly that however much we study hard, work hard, etc the law of supply and demand will always win out in a firm seeking profit.

Yes we the drivers are the profit heads and everyone else the cost heads but the reality is we still need them more than they need us.

When the market becomes candidate driven i.e just take a look at China $350,000 per annum and retention bonuses at 3,5 etc yrs then we will see the playing field level.

Until then I earn more than a BA pilot, my children have good enough schooling and I live in decent villa and have access to 5 star beach resorts. Doesn't affect me now Im here but I would have signed a $ 100,000 bond and a 10 yr contract happily.

Re the non bonded pilots. They signed their contracts we signed ours. Be honest though do you think that the guy who just valeted his Lamborghini in front of you at the beach club got that because he went to school, did very well and invented the longer lasting light bulb/ cure for cancer or in fact even went to university.

Ooor is it that perhaps life isn't fair.
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Old 21st May 2014, 15:18
  #28 (permalink)  
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Vortex,

Your statements are contradictory and naive in the extreme. EK has zero, I repeat ZERO commitment to their employees. Pilots are a cost unit, a number, an expense to be kept to the bare minimum. Nothing more. Which is their prerogative, but you are delusional to think otherwise. Yet you state that it is unprofessional for a pilot to have lack of commitment to their "firm". What is this, 1952?

You are a mercenary, nothing more. Selling your services for whatever price you can get - that supply and demand thing you mention. Do you think you earn "more than a BA pilot" because you deserve it or EK is feeling kindly towards you? Wake up! You're just an assembly line worker, who happens to live in a country that has no income tax (yet) and a endless pool of cheap labour nearby. Make a mistake, you will be replaced in an instant and no one will shed one tear or give a single thought about your "commitment" or "professionalism". Nothing personal. Just business.

Yours is just another variation of the same old tired arguments. You state that EK "is better than pretty much every where else on the planet for me and my ilk", so, that means it must be good. Much like a small child, who assumes the world revolves around them, in isolation. Good for you, that it's a better deal than whatever crap country or job you left. Let that villa and beach club help you believe you're living the good life now, baby - that's fine. But to suggest that the longer bond is due to pilots lack of commitment to an entity that cares not one whit about them, is ludicrous. Things like commitment and respect are a two-way street. And earned, not demanded.

There was already a pretty stiff bond in place, so no, there were not people taking type ratings and leaving. EK's increasing the bond smacks of desperation more than anything, to try and force increased retention. The conclusion isn't too hard to draw. Going back to those poor BA pilots, what are the terms of their training bonds again?

Better pray you never have an incident on or off the job that forces you to look outside your bubble. Or heaven forbid, find that you change your outlook at some point in your many bonded years. You might be glad the bond isn't your desired ten years or whatever. Geezuz.
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Old 21st May 2014, 17:26
  #29 (permalink)  
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Nolimitholdem…

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Spot on as we say here!!

Kapitan (EK Part number 35482!)
 
Old 21st May 2014, 19:05
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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There should be no Bond at all. Does that upset your apple cart Vortex?
As have been previously posted Bonds are illegal. What other airlines do you see Bonding pilots? Yes that is right, crap airlines. If airlines paid Industry Standard wages no pilot would leave. Isn't that the Free Market? Vortex you want to entrap pilots to stay in a undesired state. That just is not right.
Look around at the type of pilots we are getting. Narrowbody LCCs and since Emirates is having a hard time finding quality pilots they have just lowered the hours to 2000!
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Old 21st May 2014, 20:20
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Oh and by the way, Vortex, if you get yourself sacked, the bond will STILL apply. The bond is not only for those leaving of their own accord but also includes the Sacked. It's all in the contract. I don't wish you the worst but you do need to wake up and smell the camel dung and get over your love affair with management and this airline because they are well and truly over dealing with you before you even set foot in the place.


Algonquin, I suspect your perception of legality is somewhat skewed regarding what is and isn't legal here in the sandpit. The bond has been proven to be insurmountable here in this country on numerous occasions when it has been challenged by the foolhardy. Insisting that it is "illegal" is simply misleading the uninformed.

Last edited by JAARule; 22nd May 2014 at 08:03.
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Old 21st May 2014, 20:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing upsets a EK pilot more than a fellow EK pilot who is happy.

And that 5 Dhs salik...
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Old 21st May 2014, 22:00
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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nolimitholdem: Spot on and well said !
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Old 22nd May 2014, 05:46
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Is it getting that hard for them to find pilots right now they are really raising the bond and dropping the requirements??? What's the reason for the exodus? Working conditions getting bad? Just another interested pilot always keep my ear to the ground...thanks for your input.
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Old 22nd May 2014, 06:34
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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DT, the reality is that the guys hired to the 777 a couple of years ago are now realising the promises of 3-4 year commands sworn to them by the deputy chief at their 6 month round up are going to be more like 7-8, with anyone hired since needing more 77W orders to get one at all through expansion..

Without any announcement for or against the 350 coming, and the retirement of the 330/340 fleet and 40 odd 777's between now and 2020, commands for new hires today are blowing out to 10+ years unless you get a spot on the 380 in the next year or so..

No more quick commands means they don't need 4000 (2500 glass) hour pilots anymore because the new hires will get plenty of time in the EK right seat before upgrade. Lowering the hours to 2000 is an indication the they're not getting 4000 hour guys applying anymore, which they don't need, so its just business..

As far as upping the bond goes, they're just setting their target audience. Young guys with 2000hrs who are planning on coming to and staying in the sandpit for a longer amount of time.
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Old 22nd May 2014, 06:36
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Danny, got it in one. The constant erosion of benefits over the last few years is really getting to people. Anybody looking at joining now is also looking at a relatively long time on an F/O salary and the cost of living in Dubai is beginning to rocket again.
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Old 22nd May 2014, 07:16
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Where is the 2000 hour requirement advertised?

The careers website still says 4000 hours (with 2000 jet) or 2500 modern (I assume still 55t+) jet. A380 3000 hours (inc 1500 AB). That's the same as its been for a long time, or is it an informal drop in requirements?
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Old 22nd May 2014, 17:30
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Angel Naivety vs not agreeing with you!

NOLIMITHOLDEM

My statements are neither contradictory nor naive. Me not sharing the same view as you does not make me naive.

I do not for a minute believe that EK gives a tuppence for any pilot or employee or views anyone as anything other than a cost unit. EK are aware that pilots are profit heads and the the REMFs are cost heads. They pay whatever they can get away with paying. So I am not delusional I just don't care as every firm in the world does the same thing!

Re is it 1952? no but I will still hold a door open for a lady, still was willing to serve and die for queen and country and perhaps I'm a dying breed. I would rather live a life by codes such as these than an existence of "being a mercenary" and ducking and diving. I am not an east end pearly king! I think there nothing wrong in maintaining honest business practice whatever the firm would like to do. I do not, should not and have not had to lower my standards just because an HR team lowers theirs.

I am also acutely aware that should be involved in a prang with someones Bentley on the SZR, even if I was sitting stationary. I could be gone in days.

The "crap country" I left is called the UK. However some of the crap jobs that I have done mostly involve working in countries where you are lucky to get paid, lucky to get fed and business is done by whosoever happens to have the most armorlites that week.

Personally I am happy as a pig in **** not to have to eat grass cutter billed as chicken on the menu, get paid on payday (anything at all is good much less what is written in the contract which took some getting used to), not be loosing my home, not have bailiffs knocking on the door and be able to feed mini VTs and Mrs VT not only food today and tomorrow but for at least the next few weeks without wondering which of my friends houses we would have to go to when we ran out of food.

I do not for a moment think that the world revolves around me, quite the reverse (hence why I advocate putting firm/queen/honour/duty /etc and everything else way above me.

Commitment and respect I am afraid are exactly as you state. The reason HR wants longer bonds is because people keep letting them down. If BA don't need bonds good for them. BA also has 14-18yrs to command and no meritocracy.

Re my bubble, that will be the world full of the ****holes that I lived, fought and worked in for the last pretty much 15 years of my life until I came to Dubai 3 years ago. So I'm sorry if being in the top 5% of earners on the planet gives you worries right at the top of Maslow's triangle of wants and needs. I am sorry if starvation, death, famine, war, pestilence, rape, pillage and looting are not something that you have had to work around but frankly I wake up in the morning happy, go to sleep happy and to have even had this for 3 years has already made it all worthwhile. I even fill the car up without wondering if I just spent the children's lunch money!

If someone takes it from me tomorrow because of an argument over the children taking dates from their palm trees in the front garden. Then I will go back, with a better CV then I arrived with an eek out an existence somewhere somehow.

I know exactly what respect is, respect is me having my opinion and not having to agree with yours without being called names. Oh and should I change my outlook or mind. I am not entirely sure that my piss poor planning, inability to deal with a commitment I signed or any other reasons makes the airlines problem.

It's really simple work comes first everything else comes second so how something could cause me to wish to leave when my career is the primary motivator and controlling issue is beyond me. Perhaps for you it isn't perhaps rather like things that move quickly in the periphery, falling from heights and the dark it sits in your mind alongside a great fear.

Perhaps the naive one is one who believes that they should be given such opportunity at no risk to the employer whilst living such a privileged lifestyle as we all do here.

You may well think 3 years bond was sufficient I may think more is. I'm not entirely sure that I am not entitled to be called naive because of that or entirely sure that you have the point here.

I am not suggesting EK entrap people here I believe was quoted below. I simply think that bonding is not unreasonable, I don't care for what a union would do, I don't really care for what you feel is reasonable. If you don't like it then don't come. If you think life is not fair, it isn't! If you want life to be fair then who is naive here?

I once got told that there is one rule for the rich and another for the poor. This is completely untrue.

There is one rule for the poor and no rules for the rich. If you don't like it, then it is life you are fighting not my happiness.

Westin anyone?
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Old 22nd May 2014, 21:47
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Vortex, has management contacted you for a position in their ranks yet or are you typing from the 3rd floor already.
I have not seen such a sorry excuse for a pilot. Are you really a pilot or a management lackey? Everything you espouse goes against the pilot. It is obvious you have had a crap career and couldn't get hired by BA and now Emirates has hired you in their desperation to fill their slots. You should be on bended knee every night thanking your lucky stars and the EK pilots are so much better we have a man like you destroying the profession from inside.
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Old 23rd May 2014, 09:06
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Oh Lord, that is twice I've had to agree with Alconguin Crusader. I'd better have a lie down.

Seriously though, bonds are a fact of life in this profession, and inflation will mean the size of them has to go up- but not the length. What would have been wrong with 45K over 3 years?

Looks to me like EK anticipate some retention problems coming up over the next few years.
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