EK Raises New-Hire Bond to 5 yrs / $45,000 USD
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Emirates Living - The Meadows
Age: 79
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outatowner
That is exactly what HTC and I are implying. It seems so unlikely TO YOU!!! To me I find it hard to believe that there are captains and FOs who would not do this every single day! Everyone else comes first we come last.
That is the definition of altruism. It doesn't matter if 90% of the time it goes unnoticed, ignored or otherwise. It is what makes leadership different from management.
Anyone can be a manager and if as a captain that is all you are/hope to be and you can sleep well at nice then you crack on with that.
In the world I came from if you led men/women in the self interest (I'll only do it for a reward or recognition rather than because its my duty) then it was pretty likely that come the time your were deeply up to your neck in it somewhere you would really be quite deservedly on your own or getting shot in the back.
And no I am not defending my position. I love my position! I am replying to your inability to understand the meaning of naivety not being the same as I get it but just don't agree. Perhaps your dictionary has a different definition.
Oh hold on a second I'll stick to your logic.... dictionary sounds like a management lackeys tool. You weren't issued one with the FCOMs so likely think that you do not need to use one.
The captain may not be the most hands on during most flights of the crew and I will grant you that the momentum is maintained by the purser and a long day out with a bad one of those is something none of us enjoy. However it is by definition, by rank by duty and by professionally the captains absolutely definitive moment to set the tone for the conduct of the flight and make it clear how he/she runs their ship. The buck stops with you and if you don't care for setting that tone then why take the job.
Oh hold on I already know the answer for you it would/will be likely just for the pay rise!
fliion
Especially for you I thought I would wait until I was past 4 sentences as you say you stop reading there! Perhaps if you cannot be bothered to give something the depth of thought or time required to read someones reply you wouldn't:
a) Jump to conclusions about them
b) understand that a thread about bonds is nothing to do with my views on how the mgt are or are not behaving
c) understand that. "off with you" and you don't even work here are actually irrelevant to your inability to construct a logical answer to my not so unreasonable questions as to why you think X and Y
Thank you six7 and HTC for letting me believe that we are not so few and far between!
That is exactly what HTC and I are implying. It seems so unlikely TO YOU!!! To me I find it hard to believe that there are captains and FOs who would not do this every single day! Everyone else comes first we come last.
That is the definition of altruism. It doesn't matter if 90% of the time it goes unnoticed, ignored or otherwise. It is what makes leadership different from management.
Anyone can be a manager and if as a captain that is all you are/hope to be and you can sleep well at nice then you crack on with that.
In the world I came from if you led men/women in the self interest (I'll only do it for a reward or recognition rather than because its my duty) then it was pretty likely that come the time your were deeply up to your neck in it somewhere you would really be quite deservedly on your own or getting shot in the back.
And no I am not defending my position. I love my position! I am replying to your inability to understand the meaning of naivety not being the same as I get it but just don't agree. Perhaps your dictionary has a different definition.
Oh hold on a second I'll stick to your logic.... dictionary sounds like a management lackeys tool. You weren't issued one with the FCOMs so likely think that you do not need to use one.
The captain may not be the most hands on during most flights of the crew and I will grant you that the momentum is maintained by the purser and a long day out with a bad one of those is something none of us enjoy. However it is by definition, by rank by duty and by professionally the captains absolutely definitive moment to set the tone for the conduct of the flight and make it clear how he/she runs their ship. The buck stops with you and if you don't care for setting that tone then why take the job.
Oh hold on I already know the answer for you it would/will be likely just for the pay rise!
fliion
Especially for you I thought I would wait until I was past 4 sentences as you say you stop reading there! Perhaps if you cannot be bothered to give something the depth of thought or time required to read someones reply you wouldn't:
a) Jump to conclusions about them
b) understand that a thread about bonds is nothing to do with my views on how the mgt are or are not behaving
c) understand that. "off with you" and you don't even work here are actually irrelevant to your inability to construct a logical answer to my not so unreasonable questions as to why you think X and Y
Thank you six7 and HTC for letting me believe that we are not so few and far between!
Does the bond apply to type rated recruits or, all new hires?
Don't really mind the concept, 3 years to ensure a return on invested training (rating) is reasonable to me but 5 years is a joke; you can't enforce loyalty
Don't really mind the concept, 3 years to ensure a return on invested training (rating) is reasonable to me but 5 years is a joke; you can't enforce loyalty
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Emirates Living - The Meadows
Age: 79
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nabkin
I have a life thanks, oddly enough a very good one. Right here in Dubai. Is that your logical and well mannered response?
777boy
Well isn't that kind of my point. THIS THREAD isn't about the contract or anything other than the bond. If you want to talk about the contractual aspects then start a thread on that very subject and I will happily contribute if I feel I can add any value or if I feel I may learn something from anyone out there with a more persuasive, coherent or logical argument.
As I fear you are after my view on contracts in general (because I am good like that) it is really simple I have already stated in the last few posts.
A contract is a contract. If someone is offered specific accommodation in their contract and that changes without mutual agreement then one of two states occur. Either party has inalienable right to consider if the breach is fundamental. If they consider it so and most importantly ACT as so they can then take whatever action they deem remedies the breach and treat the contract as repudiated.
If however EITHER party acquiesces and continues to act as if the breach was not fundamental then life is simple. By accepting the change and continuing to act as if a contract is still binding you are deemed to have accepted the change and cannot even under law of precedence ruled states (where it exists in law i.e NOT HERE as it is a code not a statue) claim that you have been hard done by. i.e the remedy in law cannot be restitution to the original envisaged state as you have not acted as if the contract was breached.
So it is simple either refuse to come until you have sufficient trust that you will get what you were promised on your side of the contract. Or don't come. That is that simple. If you want to go down the route of breach of contract etc. Then you will waste a lot of time, likely get nowhere and certainly not work here.
Nothing stops people taking the allowance and finding their own accommodation. 300,000 other expats seem to manage!
If however you sit there and call me names or just belittle what I say without reason or post antithetical rhetoric with no substance to your argument then I will just think that either you do not have the intellectual horsepower to produce a response or are socially incapable or understanding that you are not the only person on the planet with a viewpoint.
Please more interjections such as "off with you", "get a life" as they kind of prove my point.
I have a life thanks, oddly enough a very good one. Right here in Dubai. Is that your logical and well mannered response?
777boy
Well isn't that kind of my point. THIS THREAD isn't about the contract or anything other than the bond. If you want to talk about the contractual aspects then start a thread on that very subject and I will happily contribute if I feel I can add any value or if I feel I may learn something from anyone out there with a more persuasive, coherent or logical argument.
As I fear you are after my view on contracts in general (because I am good like that) it is really simple I have already stated in the last few posts.
A contract is a contract. If someone is offered specific accommodation in their contract and that changes without mutual agreement then one of two states occur. Either party has inalienable right to consider if the breach is fundamental. If they consider it so and most importantly ACT as so they can then take whatever action they deem remedies the breach and treat the contract as repudiated.
If however EITHER party acquiesces and continues to act as if the breach was not fundamental then life is simple. By accepting the change and continuing to act as if a contract is still binding you are deemed to have accepted the change and cannot even under law of precedence ruled states (where it exists in law i.e NOT HERE as it is a code not a statue) claim that you have been hard done by. i.e the remedy in law cannot be restitution to the original envisaged state as you have not acted as if the contract was breached.
So it is simple either refuse to come until you have sufficient trust that you will get what you were promised on your side of the contract. Or don't come. That is that simple. If you want to go down the route of breach of contract etc. Then you will waste a lot of time, likely get nowhere and certainly not work here.
Nothing stops people taking the allowance and finding their own accommodation. 300,000 other expats seem to manage!
If however you sit there and call me names or just belittle what I say without reason or post antithetical rhetoric with no substance to your argument then I will just think that either you do not have the intellectual horsepower to produce a response or are socially incapable or understanding that you are not the only person on the planet with a viewpoint.
Please more interjections such as "off with you", "get a life" as they kind of prove my point.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VT
The problem with simply walking out of Company accommodation and getting your own place is rather an oversimplification of the problem. The allowance will not go far, especially for a family here. 180k for a Captain may cover your mortgage on a 4-5 bed place if you bought during the troughs in the market but you'll struggle now. You'll need 1,000,000 dhs for the deposit alone on a 4,000,000 place for which you may be lucky to get a 3 bed place in nice area. As for rent, the allowance is pitiful. For comparison, a friend of mine who works for NBD on a similar salary gets 300k for housing per year and that's about to increase. Not the forum for this I know.
Anyway, ignore the usual suspects with their constant one sided views, it's harmless banter and often an opportunity to blow of steam and frustrations. This is an open public forum, you and everyone else has the right to comment and express your viewpoint. The problem is, the negative doomsday posters are too paranoid to use our own dedicated forum. That would require a lack of anonymity!
The problem with simply walking out of Company accommodation and getting your own place is rather an oversimplification of the problem. The allowance will not go far, especially for a family here. 180k for a Captain may cover your mortgage on a 4-5 bed place if you bought during the troughs in the market but you'll struggle now. You'll need 1,000,000 dhs for the deposit alone on a 4,000,000 place for which you may be lucky to get a 3 bed place in nice area. As for rent, the allowance is pitiful. For comparison, a friend of mine who works for NBD on a similar salary gets 300k for housing per year and that's about to increase. Not the forum for this I know.
Anyway, ignore the usual suspects with their constant one sided views, it's harmless banter and often an opportunity to blow of steam and frustrations. This is an open public forum, you and everyone else has the right to comment and express your viewpoint. The problem is, the negative doomsday posters are too paranoid to use our own dedicated forum. That would require a lack of anonymity!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Emirates Living - The Meadows
Age: 79
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like the Meerkat says on TV...
Hi HTC,
I'm kind of with you. Funny old thing one of my friends here works at NDB and was discussing this very thing with me last week!
4/5 bed villa, nice area, todays price 200-300k depending on how nice you need. You can just get by on 180k if you go small or are very lucky. So it becomes about what you are prepared to pay.
My perspective is that in UK it is "normal" in the south of England to pay 40-50% of your salary on a house be that rent or mortgage makes little difference.
That means the avg FZ skipper can spend 25,000AEd per month i.e 300k per annum and then avg FZ FO can spend 20,000AED cpm if we use 50% i.e 240,000AED
The EK allowance and the FZ allowance are pretty similar so it just comes down to mentality. For me we personally have scarified for the last 10 yrs to get to where we are now. We intend to be here for the long haul and this is home now so I am not going to cram the children into 2500sq ft to have a bit of cash for 10yrs. I want to live my life whilst I'm lung enough to enjoy it!
I know the pay may be billed as separate elements but in reality the way we see it is money is money, it doesn't matter what the breakdown on the payslip is it still comes as a lump sum on the 26th of each month so granted you can't save anything but hey that can come later!
Bear in mind of course all figures are for just me working, with Mrs VT back in the game who of course is worth waaay more than little ol me then everything she earns is pure disposable to be disbursed home or invested etc.
So I think it is all about strategy and I feel it quite simple as we know exactly what we want at all stages of life from now till were in retirement.
What do you think? Have a nice weekend chap.
VT
P.S Most of the houses we looked at buying are 5.5million or more. Yes I know you can get in for less but personally would only buy smaller than that as investment but to live in with my family need 5mill minimum. This seems to come out around 25,000AEd for a 85% mortgage. So buying or renting is quite doable. You just need to commit to Dubai
I'm kind of with you. Funny old thing one of my friends here works at NDB and was discussing this very thing with me last week!
4/5 bed villa, nice area, todays price 200-300k depending on how nice you need. You can just get by on 180k if you go small or are very lucky. So it becomes about what you are prepared to pay.
My perspective is that in UK it is "normal" in the south of England to pay 40-50% of your salary on a house be that rent or mortgage makes little difference.
That means the avg FZ skipper can spend 25,000AEd per month i.e 300k per annum and then avg FZ FO can spend 20,000AED cpm if we use 50% i.e 240,000AED
The EK allowance and the FZ allowance are pretty similar so it just comes down to mentality. For me we personally have scarified for the last 10 yrs to get to where we are now. We intend to be here for the long haul and this is home now so I am not going to cram the children into 2500sq ft to have a bit of cash for 10yrs. I want to live my life whilst I'm lung enough to enjoy it!
I know the pay may be billed as separate elements but in reality the way we see it is money is money, it doesn't matter what the breakdown on the payslip is it still comes as a lump sum on the 26th of each month so granted you can't save anything but hey that can come later!
Bear in mind of course all figures are for just me working, with Mrs VT back in the game who of course is worth waaay more than little ol me then everything she earns is pure disposable to be disbursed home or invested etc.
So I think it is all about strategy and I feel it quite simple as we know exactly what we want at all stages of life from now till were in retirement.
What do you think? Have a nice weekend chap.
VT
P.S Most of the houses we looked at buying are 5.5million or more. Yes I know you can get in for less but personally would only buy smaller than that as investment but to live in with my family need 5mill minimum. This seems to come out around 25,000AEd for a 85% mortgage. So buying or renting is quite doable. You just need to commit to Dubai
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 959
Received 122 Likes
on
62 Posts
In my opinion, anyone who buys property in DXB now or opts out of company accommodation now to rent is taking a huge gamble. It may work out of course and I really hope it does for those of you that are thinking of rolling the dice. But consider the relatively recent volatility in the Dxb property markets where a few people made millions and many more lost several millions and look at what Expo 2020 is doing for prices in general in Dxb and then ask yourself what happens in 2021? Do you really think the demand will still be there to support the inflated prices or do you think the bubble will burst again? I have my opinion. Everyone else is entitled to theirs. But I will be staying in company accommodation as the cost/benefit analysis just makes any alternative option way too risky for us. If company accommodation becomes unacceptable to us for whatever reason then we have our contingency plan in place. It would most definitely not involve taking the accommodation allowance or buying property in DXB though.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 959
Received 122 Likes
on
62 Posts
F-kok
Yes, I guess I do. Probably because those opinions have been honed over the 30+ years I have been coming to and operating through DXB. DEC yes, DXB unknown place to me? No, not really! The first time I landed in DXB it only had the one runway. It also had an NDB. Coded 'DO' If memory serves, and I believe the freq was 265. But I digress.
Shall we get back 'on thread?'
Shall we get back 'on thread?'
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 30th May 2014 at 03:14.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Back in the real world
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P.S Most of the houses we looked at buying are 5.5million or more. Yes I know you can get in for less but personally would only buy smaller than that as investment but to live in with my family need 5mill minimum. This seems to come out around 25,000AEd for a 85% mortgage. So buying or renting is quite doable. You just need to commit to Dubai
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desertweasal
That must be on a mortgage taken out over 4 years ago surely? Most now are around the 4.5 - 5% mark. My HSBC is 4.5% with half of this fixed for the term and the other half linked to the libor rate. They offered 0.5% arrangement fee which was subsequently removed altogether during negotiation.
I you don't ask, you don't get. Unless you're married to my ball and chain and you don't bother asking because you know for certain you ain't getting!
Harry
That must be on a mortgage taken out over 4 years ago surely? Most now are around the 4.5 - 5% mark. My HSBC is 4.5% with half of this fixed for the term and the other half linked to the libor rate. They offered 0.5% arrangement fee which was subsequently removed altogether during negotiation.
I you don't ask, you don't get. Unless you're married to my ball and chain and you don't bother asking because you know for certain you ain't getting!
Harry
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Back in the real world
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yup an old mortgage to a technically bankrupt ex government organisation. with of course a large penalty to get out.
God alone knows what I was thinking, though in my defence it was cheap at the time - '07
God alone knows what I was thinking, though in my defence it was cheap at the time - '07
