Asiana 777 crash at KSFO
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"Ps. in flydubai we're not so anal as to actually poo-poo the idea of flying the aeroplane (i.e. without recourse to engaging the f'ing autopilot at the earliest opportunity) and indeed manual / hands-on-the-yolk & throttles flying is actively encouraged (albeit within the provisos of workload, Wx, & RVSM requirements, etc) and therein we're not required to visit the sim, on a regular basis (like some), for 'manual handling' practice! "
Wait, what makes you think all EK pilots turn the AP on right away? The trend I have been noticing lately is significantly more hands on flying. And in training, they are shifting the corporate culture's paradigm when it comes to hand flying. 10000 feet is the hard deck when it comes to automation. Common sense dictates the appropriate level of automation needed, depending of the situation. No one, or nothing prevents us from hand flying, should we desire to do so. Just saying...
Wait, what makes you think all EK pilots turn the AP on right away? The trend I have been noticing lately is significantly more hands on flying. And in training, they are shifting the corporate culture's paradigm when it comes to hand flying. 10000 feet is the hard deck when it comes to automation. Common sense dictates the appropriate level of automation needed, depending of the situation. No one, or nothing prevents us from hand flying, should we desire to do so. Just saying...
Last edited by eldee5; 9th Jul 2013 at 11:17.
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Separate point...if fatigue is a factor...how are we gong to look with crews doing 30 hours on board with 22 hours at hotel in DC if they determine it was a factor?
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So after all this backwards and forwards, the DEC teeth gnashing, the unfairness on various fleets etc, do you think you could fly a visual approach on a beautiful day...without undershooting? I managed it the other day somewhere else on the same type with an unreliable ILS signal, PAPI's that you couldn't see and a functional DME signal, and I only ever get 3's in the sim
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Wrt:
Well that's good to hear, albeit that it seems somewhat at odds with the reality of 'sims for manual handling' and / or what 'Trader' said: "
Fwiw, the only 'deck' in flydubai, wrt hand flying (be that with or without flight directors), is the requirement for autopilots to be used when within RVSM airspace.
aside - I was flying with one of our young Emirate' F/O's only the other day and can admit to being highly impressed when he asked me if I minded if he continue without the use of any automation or FD guidance (this when at FL250) and to which I consented, and he then delivered a perfectly flown (including a number of level-offs) descent and visual approach, in what was modestly challenging conditions too,... and don't even think the lad has even 1000 hrs total time. It was a true delight to watch him having a go at it - and well done young man!
I can also attest that vast majority of my (your EK) Emirate colleagues are a delight to fly with, are very capable, and will be missed when they leave flydubai.
$0.02
And in training, they are shifting the corporate culture's paradigm when it comes to hand flying. 10000 feet is the hard deck when it comes to automation. Common sense dictates the appropriate level of automation needed, depending of the situation. No one, or nothing prevents us from hand flying, should we desire to do so.
Another reason to have the UAE cadets spend 5 years at flydubai--get the hands and feet moving actually FLYING an airplane.
aside - I was flying with one of our young Emirate' F/O's only the other day and can admit to being highly impressed when he asked me if I minded if he continue without the use of any automation or FD guidance (this when at FL250) and to which I consented, and he then delivered a perfectly flown (including a number of level-offs) descent and visual approach, in what was modestly challenging conditions too,... and don't even think the lad has even 1000 hrs total time. It was a true delight to watch him having a go at it - and well done young man!
I can also attest that vast majority of my (your EK) Emirate colleagues are a delight to fly with, are very capable, and will be missed when they leave flydubai.
$0.02
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Pretty sure he meant round trip. Point was obvious to me, anyway. Lot more ULR time than rest time.
I personally think one of the major misunderstanding those circadian-rhythm-companies is to conducted multiple research studies try to maintain a roughly 24-hour periodicity despite the changing kinetics. But again I personally think for a ULR pilots the real cycle is 24+12. "24+12" is one circadian day for a ULR pilot.
But the NTSB is constantly studying fatigue and now they have an other case to add to their study and statistic.
'Actuary' - an accountant who found his life too exciting.
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Apparently the instructor in the right hard seat was on his first roster as an instructor...
Maybe having an instructor in the front seat made the two other pilot culturally uncomfortable to speak up.
Asiana should send their pilots to Emirates for training. I wonder how that would go...
Maybe having an instructor in the front seat made the two other pilot culturally uncomfortable to speak up.
Asiana should send their pilots to Emirates for training. I wonder how that would go...
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Obviously overall experience matters more than time on type. Why else would Norwegian contract with Virgin Atlantic to have some of their senior pilots "train" Norwegian longhaul 787 pilots on Transatlantic flying???? None of the VS training pilots have 787 experience...
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Nojoy, possibly a new bunch of Mods who will delete what they do not like or if you criticise them. Apart from deletion, some entire threads are deleted or locked out. Freedom of speech ? Anonymous posting ? Sad days. Oh and yeah, thread has no place in "Middle East" forums but don't tell them that...............you'll get deleted. Oh, and "Contact us"; don't bother, you'll get slapped down with a silly computerised reply. C'mon Mods, I am timing this one to see how long it takes. Shame .
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This topic is running in several areas of the site. It's 8 pages long on the private Southwest Airlines forum to put this one into perspective.
As to the main R+N forum 25 to 30% of the posts in a major crash thread get binned. It's a signal to noise mechanism. Landflap got his nose out of joint for being part of the noise and stating he should be heard because he has 20,000 hours. That experience does not prevent him having finger trouble when he claims he's been writing to us - he hasn't.
Let's be blunt - it's editorial control not speakers' corner and that is to stop the main accident threads being a complete zoo.
Rob
As to the main R+N forum 25 to 30% of the posts in a major crash thread get binned. It's a signal to noise mechanism. Landflap got his nose out of joint for being part of the noise and stating he should be heard because he has 20,000 hours. That experience does not prevent him having finger trouble when he claims he's been writing to us - he hasn't.
Let's be blunt - it's editorial control not speakers' corner and that is to stop the main accident threads being a complete zoo.
Rob
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Corsair_F4U... just as per yourself, there's (fortunately) a few of us, old enough and long enough in the tooth, to recall the debacle that is Korean aviation (and training & standards therein).... 'nuff said !
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With that scenario--multiple, multiple serious failures---equals emergency and, to be blunt, were a TRE to be truly that difficult he could go shove it you know where!
With a mayday you can do ANYTHING you like to bring the aircraft to safety.
I would guess those TREs are few and far between.
With a mayday you can do ANYTHING you like to bring the aircraft to safety.
I would guess those TREs are few and far between.
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It's interesting to assess what ramifications this accident may have for EK.
I recall a quote from the "Flying High" movie.... "I picked a great day to give up sniffing glue"
We're in the middle of some serious cost cutting in training, and indeed throughout the whole airline.
CRM is being taken away from the hands of FOs and Captains who have very good qualifications in the subject. We have 80+ (?) nationalities in the flight deck..along with all the different mind sets that come with that. Is this a good time to hand off CRM to ground instructors who may or may not have any experience in the subject?
We have a lot of cadets coming through..many of whom are very capable when everything is working well, but I've seen it myself on many an occasion; when a situation occurs that is outside their extremely limited experience paradigm, 250-700 hours of total time doesn't cut it on a wide bodied jet, and their hands and feet skills simply let them down.
We're trying to squeeze more and more arrivals into an already over congested airport. ATC are studying reduced separation approaches, with some sort of offset approach onto 30R using visual separation. I suspect extremely high workload stuff.
We do very few visual approaches.....most of the ones I see are poorly executed.
Training has worked hard over past few years to pre-empt these issues. But the elephant (or in our case the CRM gorilla wandering thru the basketball game) is still there. It is indeed a particularly bad time to give up the glue sniffing.
I recall a quote from the "Flying High" movie.... "I picked a great day to give up sniffing glue"
We're in the middle of some serious cost cutting in training, and indeed throughout the whole airline.
CRM is being taken away from the hands of FOs and Captains who have very good qualifications in the subject. We have 80+ (?) nationalities in the flight deck..along with all the different mind sets that come with that. Is this a good time to hand off CRM to ground instructors who may or may not have any experience in the subject?
We have a lot of cadets coming through..many of whom are very capable when everything is working well, but I've seen it myself on many an occasion; when a situation occurs that is outside their extremely limited experience paradigm, 250-700 hours of total time doesn't cut it on a wide bodied jet, and their hands and feet skills simply let them down.
We're trying to squeeze more and more arrivals into an already over congested airport. ATC are studying reduced separation approaches, with some sort of offset approach onto 30R using visual separation. I suspect extremely high workload stuff.
We do very few visual approaches.....most of the ones I see are poorly executed.
Training has worked hard over past few years to pre-empt these issues. But the elephant (or in our case the CRM gorilla wandering thru the basketball game) is still there. It is indeed a particularly bad time to give up the glue sniffing.
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It's interesting to assess what ramifications this accident may have for EK.
The training department will be proactive and I imagine that ATQP will address the relevant issues when they become fact but only in future phases. Phase six is already cemented. Perhaps when more details emerge SFO will be incorporated in the manual handling Sim.
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The aim will be to frighten crews into taking the most conservative approach rather than the most practical with a threat of disciplinary action if anything goes wrong.
already there...
already there...
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Don't be surprised if EK react to this.
Every time there has been a headline incident there has been a swift response.
Melbourne: all hauled in for PIC & 2IC briefs, strict application of Perf SOPs
BA @ LHR: bulletins and handling sims with double engine failure on 12nm final.
UPS DXB: Lithium fire socks.
Industry wide unstable approaches incl FDX in Japan: Smart Landing system
And now this: I just cannot see them continuing with narrow body DECs (not to mention trainers who have no more than six months in the LHS)
We shall see
f.
Every time there has been a headline incident there has been a swift response.
Melbourne: all hauled in for PIC & 2IC briefs, strict application of Perf SOPs
BA @ LHR: bulletins and handling sims with double engine failure on 12nm final.
UPS DXB: Lithium fire socks.
Industry wide unstable approaches incl FDX in Japan: Smart Landing system
And now this: I just cannot see them continuing with narrow body DECs (not to mention trainers who have no more than six months in the LHS)
We shall see
f.
Last edited by fliion; 12th Jul 2013 at 12:19.