Asiana 777 crash at KSFO
And now this: I just cannot see them continuing with narrow body DECs
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Wiz
His previous eight years were on the 320.
FO to LHS will have had the benefit of watching, learning and understanding FMA/VNAV/automation that cannot be fully downloaded in six weeks (heck it does things now that I get confused about sometimes - then again I'm no test pilot for sure)
You may be right but how will protective senior management and insurers react.
I suspect with caution.
Can you imagine the reputational risk with the media frenzy if we headlined an incident while a new DEC with no previous type experience (or heavy time) had a mishap?
Think of the "we told you so" positioning from German & Canadian vested interests.
Watch this space.
f.
His previous eight years were on the 320.
FO to LHS will have had the benefit of watching, learning and understanding FMA/VNAV/automation that cannot be fully downloaded in six weeks (heck it does things now that I get confused about sometimes - then again I'm no test pilot for sure)
You may be right but how will protective senior management and insurers react.
I suspect with caution.
Can you imagine the reputational risk with the media frenzy if we headlined an incident while a new DEC with no previous type experience (or heavy time) had a mishap?
Think of the "we told you so" positioning from German & Canadian vested interests.
Watch this space.
f.
Last edited by fliion; 12th Jul 2013 at 13:50.
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Why would EK have to react to this accident?? They have been VERY proactive on the stabilized criteria front and, by and large, our crews do an excellent job!!
While you can't say it will never happen I believe the VAST majority of EK crews would have went around at 1000' but certainly by 500' when this crew was laterally off as well as vertically off (based on what the NTSB has said so far).
The comments regarding CRM are right on though!! I hope the cost cutting does not bring in non pilot (or non active pilot) instructors. The EK CRM course is the absolute best CRM I have seen and, in my opinion, probably an industry leader. ND, who runs it, is brilliant in his job and ,I hope, is not being hamstrung by new leadership.
This recent cost cutting is worrisome. EK has built a good system which they seem to be dismantling now.
The flying hour increase was the start of the narrow minded, short term cost measures.
While you can't say it will never happen I believe the VAST majority of EK crews would have went around at 1000' but certainly by 500' when this crew was laterally off as well as vertically off (based on what the NTSB has said so far).
The comments regarding CRM are right on though!! I hope the cost cutting does not bring in non pilot (or non active pilot) instructors. The EK CRM course is the absolute best CRM I have seen and, in my opinion, probably an industry leader. ND, who runs it, is brilliant in his job and ,I hope, is not being hamstrung by new leadership.
This recent cost cutting is worrisome. EK has built a good system which they seem to be dismantling now.
The flying hour increase was the start of the narrow minded, short term cost measures.
Hmmmm....Sum Dum Fuk at NTSB is probably joining the ranks of the unemployed over that one...totally unacceptable...how embarrassing
You get what you pay for....
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NTSB completes work at Asiana 777 crash site; no systems anomalies found
“During the approach, there were statements made in the cockpit, first about being over the glide path, then about being on the glide path, then about being under the glide path, Hersman explained, citing the CVR. One pilot has told investigators he realized the aircraft was too low at about 500 feet, or about 34 seconds to impact with SFO’s sea wall."
But even as the pilots were aware of being too high and then too low, they did not realize the 777’s speed had dropped from a target speed of 137 knots to 103 knots until seconds before impact, according to NTSB.
NTSB completes work at Asiana 777 crash site; no systems anomalies found | Safety content from ATWOnline
But even as the pilots were aware of being too high and then too low, they did not realize the 777’s speed had dropped from a target speed of 137 knots to 103 knots until seconds before impact, according to NTSB.
NTSB completes work at Asiana 777 crash site; no systems anomalies found | Safety content from ATWOnline
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Wizofoz:
Can you help me out here...imagine I am downwind descending in FLCH HOLD and ATC says “y'all make a visual approach now, follow xx”. I set 1000' on the MCP, disconnect the autopilot and perform one of my exemplary visual approaches. F/D off but PM leaves his on. We set a higher alt on the MCP when stabilised.
Will the autothrottle stay in HOLD?
PS -sorry guys they had 4 pilots because the trainee has to fly with a TRI, normally it would be 3 out to 12:30.
Can you help me out here...imagine I am downwind descending in FLCH HOLD and ATC says “y'all make a visual approach now, follow xx”. I set 1000' on the MCP, disconnect the autopilot and perform one of my exemplary visual approaches. F/D off but PM leaves his on. We set a higher alt on the MCP when stabilised.
Will the autothrottle stay in HOLD?
PS -sorry guys they had 4 pilots because the trainee has to fly with a TRI, normally it would be 3 out to 12:30.
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HPSOV L,
Yes, your speed will decay all the way into the amber band and you will eventually stall unless of course you are not automagic dependent, no AT wakeup, is my understanding.
Yes, your speed will decay all the way into the amber band and you will eventually stall unless of course you are not automagic dependent, no AT wakeup, is my understanding.
feds correct- no A/T wakeup in that scenario- but further I think the speculation is the Asiana crew set the MCP alt to zero.
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no A/T wakeup in that scenario- but further I think the speculation is the Asiana crew set the MCP alt to zero.
Indicates maneuver speed margin to stick shaker or low speed buffet. Top of the bar is the airspeed that provides:
1.3g maneuver capability to stick shaker with flaps down
EICAS message AIRSPEED LOW
Level: Caution
Aural: Beeper
Message Logic: Airspeed is below Minimum Maneuvering Speed
The autothrottle can support stall protection if armed and not activated. If speed decreases to near stick shaker activation, the autothrottle automatically activates in the appropriate mode (SPD or THR REF) and advances thrust to maintain minimum maneuvering speed (approximately the top of the amber band) or the speed set in the mode control panel speed window, whichever is greater.
Note: When the pitch mode is FLCH or TOGA, or the airplane is below 400 feet above the airport on takeoff, or below 100 feet radio altitude on approach, the autothrottle will not automatically activate.
The A/T ARM Switches looks like they were in OFF. Or the airplane went below Minimum Maneuvering Speed below 100 ft RA. But still AIRSPEED LOW + beeper + Caution at 100ft RA ...
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Will the autothrottle stay in HOLD?
When in HOLD and the speed reaches the MCP speed automatically changes in THR to maintain the selected speed.
IF auto-throttle wake-up engages, it puts the A/T into SPD mode, and either targets a speed just outside the low speed amber band if the selected speed is INSIDE the amber band, OR targets the bugged speed if the bug is OUTSIDE the amber band.
BUT- Auto-throttle wake-up does NOT function when the A/T is in HOLD (Typically when climbing or descending in FLCH or VNAV SPD)
THAT is consistent with what you quoted here-
Note: When the pitch mode is FLCH or TOGA, or the airplane is below 400 feet above the airport on take-off, or below 100 feet radio altitude on approach, the auto-throttle will not automatically activate.
Yes. they would have gotten an "Airspeed Low" EICAS- but seem to have been slow to respond to it.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 15th Jul 2013 at 05:16.
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'Tis true someone needs to review their FCOM...
"FOR A START THR does not act to maintain a speed- it sets the power to whatever is the currently annunciated maximum thrust on the Thrust Rating Panel"
Wrong.
It would be "THR REF" that does that. "THR" applies power as required by the current mode - you have no idea what amount that will be.
Wrong.
It would be "THR REF" that does that. "THR" applies power as required by the current mode - you have no idea what amount that will be.
Last edited by Dropp the Pilot; 15th Jul 2013 at 02:55.
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I'm still a little alarmed that the concept of this trap had never occured to me.
1. I deduce that talk of autothrottle wakeup in HOLD mode is perhaps misleading as it is already 'awake'- ie: it is already activated in HOLD mode. Maybe this is the crux of why there is no stall protection logic.
2. Could the accident aircraft have been in VNAV SPD with 0' or a MAA set on the MCP?
"Note: During a descent in VNAV SPD, the autothrottle may activate in HOLD mode and will not support stall protection"
1. I deduce that talk of autothrottle wakeup in HOLD mode is perhaps misleading as it is already 'awake'- ie: it is already activated in HOLD mode. Maybe this is the crux of why there is no stall protection logic.
2. Could the accident aircraft have been in VNAV SPD with 0' or a MAA set on the MCP?
"Note: During a descent in VNAV SPD, the autothrottle may activate in HOLD mode and will not support stall protection"
Last edited by HPSOV L; 15th Jul 2013 at 03:49.
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I'm still a little alarmed that the concept of this trap had never occured to me.
1. I deduce that talk of autothrottle wakeup in HOLD mode is perhaps misleading as it is already 'awake'- ie: it is already activated in HOLD mode. Maybe this is the crux of why there is no stall protection logic.
2. Could the accident aircraft have been in VNAV SPD with 0' or a MAA set on the MCP?
"Note: During a descent in VNAV SPD, the autothrottle may activate in HOLD mode and will not support stall protection"
3. Am I correct in saying that if there is no altitude set on the MCP for FLCH to capture you effectively have no autothrottle? And that the only way to regain the autothrottle is to change modes or turn the f/ds off, whereby the autothrottle mode changes to SPD?
1. I deduce that talk of autothrottle wakeup in HOLD mode is perhaps misleading as it is already 'awake'- ie: it is already activated in HOLD mode. Maybe this is the crux of why there is no stall protection logic.
2. Could the accident aircraft have been in VNAV SPD with 0' or a MAA set on the MCP?
"Note: During a descent in VNAV SPD, the autothrottle may activate in HOLD mode and will not support stall protection"
3. Am I correct in saying that if there is no altitude set on the MCP for FLCH to capture you effectively have no autothrottle? And that the only way to regain the autothrottle is to change modes or turn the f/ds off, whereby the autothrottle mode changes to SPD?
Sadly inspite of the inevitable well meaning protestations of a few, my 777 course lacked the depth of understanding to even delve close to the depth I encountered previously, the net result being a lower level of systems knowledge.
I pity the guys who continue to baffle themselves in the hold using VNAV who scratch their heads when the thing decides to climb....
It must be a real shock for an aeerboos convert.
"FOR A START THR does not act to maintain a speed- it sets the power to whatever is the currently annunciated maximum thrust on the Thrust Rating Panel"
Wrong.
It would be "THR REF" that does that. "THR" applies power as required by the current mode - you have no idea what amount that will be.
Wrong.
It would be "THR REF" that does that. "THR" applies power as required by the current mode - you have no idea what amount that will be.
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You guys who weren't shown this 'feature', did you do your training with EK? I'm curious because I was definitely shown during initial at least twice, and I've seen it again doing manual handling. I bet we'll all be seeing it in the near future. For what it's worth, the TRE told me 'If the FMA says HOLD, that means hold the thrust levers with your hand'. I suppose it's a little geeky, but I do just religiously. My 2 dirhams........