Asiana 777 crash at KSFO
The modern breed of computer nerds entering the flight deck is a cause for concern and the worrying lack of airmanship is all too evident.
San Francisco Plane Crash: Pilot Was Training
Terrible, just terrible, I feel for the lives changed in all this:-(
I only now hope that a thorough report is made in a timely manor so we can all learn from these sorts of accidents so the couple of young & innocent lives lost won't be in vain. In Gods hands they live on.
Wmk2
I only now hope that a thorough report is made in a timely manor so we can all learn from these sorts of accidents so the couple of young & innocent lives lost won't be in vain. In Gods hands they live on.
Wmk2
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Looks like one of the girls that died was actually run over by one of the response vehicles - if so then for an accident of this magnitude to cause only one death is a remarkable tribute to the design of the 777.
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The fact that a perfectly healthy 777 can allow itself to stall is an interesting design feature, and the fact that it crashed on a beautiful VFR day is a remarkable statement about the Asiana training department and airline culture. Sounds eerily familiar.
Pilot Error Eyed in San Francisco Plane Crash - WSJ.com
Pilot Error Eyed in San Francisco Plane Crash - WSJ.com
Last edited by mooseknuckles; 8th Jul 2013 at 10:07.
I'm not a huge believer of a hereafter as such but if these two girls had to go ( by the hands of others) then I hope at least they are somewhere peaceful.
Religion may not be everyone's cup of tea but if it is for some then I would respect that.
Vis App, clear day, with two qualified pilots up front, who was minding the 'shop'? To let a transport Cat A/C especially of this size get slow (& low) means someone wasn't minding the counter.
Out of all the sophisticated instruments, the amazing capabilities of today's modern A/C the intense training it still only takes a human to destroy all that hard work not to mention the lives lost b4 them learning the hard way.
To me the single most important instrument under these conditions is the 'speedo', that single inst tells a LOT about the health of a plane in any stage of flight especially low to the ground.
Wmk2
Religion may not be everyone's cup of tea but if it is for some then I would respect that.
Vis App, clear day, with two qualified pilots up front, who was minding the 'shop'? To let a transport Cat A/C especially of this size get slow (& low) means someone wasn't minding the counter.
Out of all the sophisticated instruments, the amazing capabilities of today's modern A/C the intense training it still only takes a human to destroy all that hard work not to mention the lives lost b4 them learning the hard way.
To me the single most important instrument under these conditions is the 'speedo', that single inst tells a LOT about the health of a plane in any stage of flight especially low to the ground.
Wmk2
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I guess I'm writing this out of frustration hoping someone in a position of power will stop and think long and hard.
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Zohan - well said. A crutch for the intellectually weak.
Four pilots on an 11 hr flight, wonder how long the layover is. I've done close to that through the night in winter with only two of us.
As a perverse knock on to this, and I take no joy in saying it, there will be more jobs available in Asiana if the NTSB cites cockpit culture as a factor. With their experience with Guam & KAL they may well have a jaundiced view.
f.
Four pilots on an 11 hr flight, wonder how long the layover is. I've done close to that through the night in winter with only two of us.
As a perverse knock on to this, and I take no joy in saying it, there will be more jobs available in Asiana if the NTSB cites cockpit culture as a factor. With their experience with Guam & KAL they may well have a jaundiced view.
f.
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....not again...
LR3
In no way should this be construed as an attempt to lay the majority of blame anywhere else then the flight deck but have a think about how you feel at 5am, landing after your third night turn in a week.Missing radio calls,forgetting if you have been cleared to land, wondering if you have sat the crew down 10 seconds after you just did it.
LR3 and all of that before touch down...I just heard (rumors Network again) that an A380 skipper was demoted for turning into the wrong taxiway and having had to be tagged out...
Non Zero - Only the FAA can satisfy your frustration ... the majority of other civilian organizations have demonstrate to be very wick ...
Non Zero I Agree...unfortunately...
Old King Coal
The fact that some airlines have to bring their crews into the simulator in order to have them conduct manual handling exercises, speaks volumes !
yes it does...it's called being proactive not reactive...but I agree in the fact that what brought us here is too much reliance in automation and luck of piston/turboprop/GA or even 737/320 rural ops exposure...much more valuable exposure than being a HF/CPDLC operator for hours and ending up with 3 landings per month if lucky and that in usually good weather with an ILS....
Ynot
In no way should this be construed as an attempt to lay the majority of blame anywhere else then the flight deck but have a think about how you feel at 5am, landing after your third night turn in a week.Missing radio calls,forgetting if you have been cleared to land, wondering if you have sat the crew down 10 seconds after you just did it.
LR3 and all of that before touch down...I just heard (rumors Network again) that an A380 skipper was demoted for turning into the wrong taxiway and having had to be tagged out...
Non Zero - Only the FAA can satisfy your frustration ... the majority of other civilian organizations have demonstrate to be very wick ...
Non Zero I Agree...unfortunately...
Old King Coal
The fact that some airlines have to bring their crews into the simulator in order to have them conduct manual handling exercises, speaks volumes !
yes it does...it's called being proactive not reactive...but I agree in the fact that what brought us here is too much reliance in automation and luck of piston/turboprop/GA or even 737/320 rural ops exposure...much more valuable exposure than being a HF/CPDLC operator for hours and ending up with 3 landings per month if lucky and that in usually good weather with an ILS....
Ynot
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The difference here is 4 pilots for a 10 hour flight vs 2 pilots for a 10 hour flight at Emirates, at times.
EK has been extremely lucky and with the conditions they put us under it is just a matter of time.
Good luck to us all.
EK has been extremely lucky and with the conditions they put us under it is just a matter of time.
Good luck to us all.
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Trader: Hear, hear, and what a novel idea, i.e. jet pilots actually flying the f'ing aeroplane... maybe it'll catch on ?!
Ps. in flydubai we're not so anal as to actually poo-poo the idea of flying the aeroplane (i.e. without recourse to engaging the f'ing autopilot at the earliest opportunity) and indeed manual / hands-on-the-yolk & throttles flying is actively encouraged (albeit within the provisos of workload, Wx, & RVSM requirements, etc) and therein we're not required to visit the sim, on a regular basis (like some), for 'manual handling' practice!
Ps. in flydubai we're not so anal as to actually poo-poo the idea of flying the aeroplane (i.e. without recourse to engaging the f'ing autopilot at the earliest opportunity) and indeed manual / hands-on-the-yolk & throttles flying is actively encouraged (albeit within the provisos of workload, Wx, & RVSM requirements, etc) and therein we're not required to visit the sim, on a regular basis (like some), for 'manual handling' practice!
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DEC policy check - Another interesting knock on effect is the 'actuarial' factor.
We were told a number of years ago in wash-up that one of the factors behind DECs was that the Actuaries were concerned with the overall flight hour number of the upgrading FOs.
One of the first things the insurance industry does in the aftermath of an incident such as this is to have a mass scramble and reassess the algorithms. If you have seen the'CNN video that shows the approach and subsequent crash - you can see that the corkscrew at the end got very close to a flip....in which case...game over.
So now AIG, Zurich Re, Lloyd's will make a polite call to Dubai with the following question:
Actuary:
"You guys don't have guys in the LHS with 43 hours on type do you? I mean obviously in their previous gig they flew heavies from the left?"
Dubai:
"Actually Mr actuary, we have guys in the LHS that have less than 43 who didn't fly anything bigger than a 737 before we put them there...But it's all good, we saved money on training"
Actuary:
"Ah thats great thanks and just to clear things up, one more pertinent question...you guys don't run 11 hour flights with less than four pilots right?"
Dubai
"Huh? next question"
Actuary
"Okeedokee , lemme call you guys back in five"
5mins later.
Actuary:
"Yo..it's me again...I guess the good news for my insurance co. Is that at least you don't have these, whadya call em DECs, jumping into the LHS of the 380. I mean all the guys who upgrade are high on Airbus 380 time right?"
Dubai:
"Hmm, not excactly...but we save money in training by putting the 777 guys on the 380"
Watch this space...we've been saying it for years... Bypassing seniority and experience is a big wise invitation to Karma to come a knocking.....disgraceful.
Got spin?..,work it habibi
f.
We were told a number of years ago in wash-up that one of the factors behind DECs was that the Actuaries were concerned with the overall flight hour number of the upgrading FOs.
One of the first things the insurance industry does in the aftermath of an incident such as this is to have a mass scramble and reassess the algorithms. If you have seen the'CNN video that shows the approach and subsequent crash - you can see that the corkscrew at the end got very close to a flip....in which case...game over.
So now AIG, Zurich Re, Lloyd's will make a polite call to Dubai with the following question:
Actuary:
"You guys don't have guys in the LHS with 43 hours on type do you? I mean obviously in their previous gig they flew heavies from the left?"
Dubai:
"Actually Mr actuary, we have guys in the LHS that have less than 43 who didn't fly anything bigger than a 737 before we put them there...But it's all good, we saved money on training"
Actuary:
"Ah thats great thanks and just to clear things up, one more pertinent question...you guys don't run 11 hour flights with less than four pilots right?"
Dubai
"Huh? next question"
Actuary
"Okeedokee , lemme call you guys back in five"
5mins later.
Actuary:
"Yo..it's me again...I guess the good news for my insurance co. Is that at least you don't have these, whadya call em DECs, jumping into the LHS of the 380. I mean all the guys who upgrade are high on Airbus 380 time right?"
Dubai:
"Hmm, not excactly...but we save money in training by putting the 777 guys on the 380"
Watch this space...we've been saying it for years... Bypassing seniority and experience is a big wise invitation to Karma to come a knocking.....disgraceful.
Got spin?..,work it habibi
f.
Last edited by fliion; 9th Jul 2013 at 01:21.
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f
So what's the overriding factor, experience or seniority? You appear to contradict yourself in that last post.
Let me re phrase your question. Who would be better qualified to fly a 777 (hypothetically speaking), a 5 year Captain transitioning off A380 who's only flown Airbus throughout their career or a B777 FO with 4 years in Company and 7 years previous command and all Boeing time? Experience can be difficult to judge and individual ability should never be related to aircraft size.That's what the final command sign off is for..... either you're safe, or you're not.
At the end of the day it matters bugger all what size airplane you fly, 500 passengers, 350 or 2. The investigation is the same regardless of lives lost!
So what's the overriding factor, experience or seniority? You appear to contradict yourself in that last post.
Let me re phrase your question. Who would be better qualified to fly a 777 (hypothetically speaking), a 5 year Captain transitioning off A380 who's only flown Airbus throughout their career or a B777 FO with 4 years in Company and 7 years previous command and all Boeing time? Experience can be difficult to judge and individual ability should never be related to aircraft size.That's what the final command sign off is for..... either you're safe, or you're not.
At the end of the day it matters bugger all what size airplane you fly, 500 passengers, 350 or 2. The investigation is the same regardless of lives lost!
Last edited by BYMONEK; 9th Jul 2013 at 02:49.
So what about those Captains and FOs with zero hours on the 380 and 787? When those pilots started flying on them surely it was the blind leading the blind. So far so good no pilot related incidents, infact pilots on these aircraft have had to deal with all the teething problems.
This whole Asiana crash must be down to training and SOPs. Do Asiana have their on 777 sim? What is the difference between their training and say EK's? I cannot believe that the crew on that flight could not visually see they were well below the glidescope.
Oh well lets see what 'Terror in the skies' or 'Aircrash investigation' make of it
This whole Asiana crash must be down to training and SOPs. Do Asiana have their on 777 sim? What is the difference between their training and say EK's? I cannot believe that the crew on that flight could not visually see they were well below the glidescope.
Oh well lets see what 'Terror in the skies' or 'Aircrash investigation' make of it
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So what's the overriding factor, experience or seniority?
So what about those Captains and FOs with zero hours on the 380 and 787?
But upgrading a RHS medium platform to heavy LHS new philosophy platform can be challenging. Not impossible but you definitely introduce more variable with more chances of failure.
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BYMOMEK,
the point is that if the policy is there because of a new type A380/787 and obviously there are not qual'd guys then fine...the training program on a new type will be tailored as such.
But this $ saving racket of having guys who are sitting in the RHS of the 777 - who because the DEC recruitment was stopped at the time they joined - are now sitting beside guys from FR in the LHS who have less experience than them on the 738 never mind thre years on the 777...that's silly....actually it's greed.
On the 380 side we have FOs with perfect record who are going into their 7th year on the Bus - who because of FCI - are now waiting even longer ....just as a Capt junior to him from a different type now gets his slot.
We know that there is no pure seniority here because cross typing costs the union majors lots.
But the DEC is a $ issue ....the cost of which when it goes wrong is hard to calculate.
Point taken on proper training ...if you are signed off ...you are signed off BUT we have all done things after sign off that have been less than stellar where experience would have helped.
Separate point...if fatigue is a factor...how are we gong to look with crews doing 30 hours on board with 22 hours at hotel in DC if they determine it was a factor?
f.
the point is that if the policy is there because of a new type A380/787 and obviously there are not qual'd guys then fine...the training program on a new type will be tailored as such.
But this $ saving racket of having guys who are sitting in the RHS of the 777 - who because the DEC recruitment was stopped at the time they joined - are now sitting beside guys from FR in the LHS who have less experience than them on the 738 never mind thre years on the 777...that's silly....actually it's greed.
On the 380 side we have FOs with perfect record who are going into their 7th year on the Bus - who because of FCI - are now waiting even longer ....just as a Capt junior to him from a different type now gets his slot.
We know that there is no pure seniority here because cross typing costs the union majors lots.
But the DEC is a $ issue ....the cost of which when it goes wrong is hard to calculate.
Point taken on proper training ...if you are signed off ...you are signed off BUT we have all done things after sign off that have been less than stellar where experience would have helped.
Separate point...if fatigue is a factor...how are we gong to look with crews doing 30 hours on board with 22 hours at hotel in DC if they determine it was a factor?
f.
Last edited by fliion; 9th Jul 2013 at 10:04.