EK DECs now on seniority list
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One of the reasons the Majors didn't hire as much lately is because the RJ pilots with their propensity to fly for free took many jobs from the Majors. Most if not all of the US airline growth was at the Regionals.
They had a very low hourly rate, no pension, no work rules and no contract to speak of. In fact many of them could qualify for free food stamps.
In addition when some Regional airlines transtioned to jets the failure rate was unprecedented. One airline had a 85% failure rate on its captains!
Yes there are many reasons why the RJ pilots were not at the Majors but one reason is surely the skill set. Why are they having so many problems on the heavy metal? Why did EK say no more RJ pilots? Maybe the failure rate wouldn't have been so high if they started on a 737 or 320 but with the heavies it is a completely new ballgame.
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They had a very low hourly rate, no pension, no work rules and no contract to speak of. In fact many of them could qualify for free food stamps.
In addition when some Regional airlines transtioned to jets the failure rate was unprecedented. One airline had a 85% failure rate on its captains!
Yes there are many reasons why the RJ pilots were not at the Majors but one reason is surely the skill set. Why are they having so many problems on the heavy metal? Why did EK say no more RJ pilots? Maybe the failure rate wouldn't have been so high if they started on a 737 or 320 but with the heavies it is a completely new ballgame.
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Crusader, you speak like this AFTER you left the regional and got hired at the majors?? (or did you scab at one?) Your own pilot group screwed up your CBA, by not sorting out scope...almost all regional pilots are ALPA, same as you...have an idea why EK flushed the RJ folks out of the pool, one being pilots with 'bus/Boeing experience became available...
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Fuse plug! Couldn't agree more!
Unfortunatly all the US guys were labeled because of a small few lazy and vocal guys!
The real truth is that in EK you are expected to have your work done when attending sims or LT. If so you should be given more development. But this expectation of getting your hand held and your ass wiped is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with previous types, it has everything to do with attitude and willingness to work! I have seen US guys from smaller than RJ's and they excel, why, because they have the right attitude and apply themselves.
Those who don't work and consider themselves sky gods always cry the loudest about checking and poor training. It's a minority but a vocal one.. Empty vessels ..etc
Unfortunatly all the US guys were labeled because of a small few lazy and vocal guys!
The real truth is that in EK you are expected to have your work done when attending sims or LT. If so you should be given more development. But this expectation of getting your hand held and your ass wiped is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with previous types, it has everything to do with attitude and willingness to work! I have seen US guys from smaller than RJ's and they excel, why, because they have the right attitude and apply themselves.
Those who don't work and consider themselves sky gods always cry the loudest about checking and poor training. It's a minority but a vocal one.. Empty vessels ..etc
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AC, I agree with just about everything you wrote in your last post. Except for the part about us having so many problems and your entire first sentence. The first sentence is an entirely different argument and has no place in the middle east forum; moreover, its untrue, insulting, and total flamebate.
Get off it, man.
Get off it, man.
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It's all about supply and demand, when the only jet pilots available were RJ pilots EK had no choice, now they have a choice and it's not RJ pilots. You guys have to understand that RJ hours at the bottom of the EK list, that's it. There may come a time when EK will have no choice and will be back to RJ pilots.
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It's all about timing.......
@Fatbus
+1.....
How right you are Sir......
I guess for all those who have not learned this so far in their flying careers, there are 2 most important factors for any pilot....
1st.
Aviation business & careers in flying are cyclical......
(READ "always moves in cycles")
2nd.
It's all about timing.....
+1.....
How right you are Sir......
I guess for all those who have not learned this so far in their flying careers, there are 2 most important factors for any pilot....
1st.
Aviation business & careers in flying are cyclical......
(READ "always moves in cycles")
2nd.
It's all about timing.....
Last edited by pilotbaba; 8th Jul 2012 at 01:48.
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This debate reminds me of the military vs. civilian issue. But if the RJ guys are so bad in their upgrades, I'm wondering why there currently is a huge 46% upgrade failure rate at BA? One of the reasons R.N. recently left EK to consult with them to figure out where the problem might be.
And already we can see through the posts here the bias towards RJ pilots. And of course these posts can be a sampling of the bias in the training dept. There are too many variables, age, culture, hours, experience, etc. to just say it's the RJ pilots. That's just ignorant. Don't think the upgrade failure rate at BA is due to RJ pilots.
And already we can see through the posts here the bias towards RJ pilots. And of course these posts can be a sampling of the bias in the training dept. There are too many variables, age, culture, hours, experience, etc. to just say it's the RJ pilots. That's just ignorant. Don't think the upgrade failure rate at BA is due to RJ pilots.
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I know a lot of the RJ guys that have become Captains not one has failed the upgrade.
Many are Canadian, European & American
Now the interview is a different story...absolute carnage for the US guys for some reason.
Soft skills?
Dunno
f.
Many are Canadian, European & American
Now the interview is a different story...absolute carnage for the US guys for some reason.
Soft skills?
Dunno
f.
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absolute carnage for the US guys for some reason.
During the OZ '89 dispute many Americans were farmed out by their companies to fly the Ansett flights, The post '89 pilots I flew with had many unpleasant things to say about Americans in general....possibly there was some influence there?
During the OZ '89 dispute many Americans were farmed out by their companies to fly the Ansett flights, The post '89 pilots I flew with had many unpleasant things to say about Americans in general....possibly there was some influence there?
ironbutt,
I think the whole RJ thing is more about "individuals" rather than branding all RJ pilots.
It was a whole bunch of circumstances at the time that lead to the whole RJ saga.
EK had just reduced its training (again), less SIMs, less Line sectors. Training for someone new to the type was now much more challenging, and these fellas were the wrong group to be the first through.
The FOs that EK normally hired were no longer interested. So the assumed knowledge and experience that the training department were use to, and the new training courses relied on, was not there.
They were young, and most were "check airmen" in their past companies, so were having a hard time coming to terms with something new. Rather than hearing "at band camp" we heard "on the RJ" when trying to discuss stuff that needed to be covered during line training.
They were just harder work that the normal FOs that had been hired before them. This isn't their fault. As EK wouldn't have hired them in the past with the experience they had. Changes within EK made it no longer attractive to new hires. EK should have admitted this and provided the training these guys really needed.
There aren't any Aussies in training management, so I don't think it was 89 bias.
Anyway, about them DECs.
The Don
I think the whole RJ thing is more about "individuals" rather than branding all RJ pilots.
It was a whole bunch of circumstances at the time that lead to the whole RJ saga.
EK had just reduced its training (again), less SIMs, less Line sectors. Training for someone new to the type was now much more challenging, and these fellas were the wrong group to be the first through.
The FOs that EK normally hired were no longer interested. So the assumed knowledge and experience that the training department were use to, and the new training courses relied on, was not there.
They were young, and most were "check airmen" in their past companies, so were having a hard time coming to terms with something new. Rather than hearing "at band camp" we heard "on the RJ" when trying to discuss stuff that needed to be covered during line training.
They were just harder work that the normal FOs that had been hired before them. This isn't their fault. As EK wouldn't have hired them in the past with the experience they had. Changes within EK made it no longer attractive to new hires. EK should have admitted this and provided the training these guys really needed.
There aren't any Aussies in training management, so I don't think it was 89 bias.
Anyway, about them DECs.
The Don
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don
happens here again ... and will definitely not help the situation!
What worries me more is reading our ASRs. I guess I would not have to comment it, but it's deeply troubling.
It makes me believe that maybe EK fails the wrong bunch!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!
I know it's provocative and exaggerated, but it's certainly food for thought.
They were young, and most were "check airmen" in their past companies
What worries me more is reading our ASRs. I guess I would not have to comment it, but it's deeply troubling.
It makes me believe that maybe EK fails the wrong bunch!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!
I know it's provocative and exaggerated, but it's certainly food for thought.
People that "want" to be trainers should IMHO be barred from the post.
As you say, the guys that don't want to do it, are the ones that should be doing it, but they have too much sense, common or otherwise.
It's a bit like politicians, anyone who wants to be one shouldn't
As you say, the guys that don't want to do it, are the ones that should be doing it, but they have too much sense, common or otherwise.
It's a bit like politicians, anyone who wants to be one shouldn't
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Originally Posted by glofish
It makes me believe that maybe EK fails the wrong bunch!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!
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Just to add some actual stats to the argument (though I thought this thread was about DECs??)
Of my batchmates, 3 failed the interview, one of which was an RJ guy from Canada. The other 2 had both flown 747s, and one of those was a former US air force commander for many years on a heavy jet.
The only other RJ guy from my course passed his interview.
So, where is all this stuff coming from?? Anyone else have some ACTUAL stats to back up the bias???
Maybe we should stop hiring 747 fo's since more of them failed the interview based on my experience?? Yes, that makes perfect sense.
Of my batchmates, 3 failed the interview, one of which was an RJ guy from Canada. The other 2 had both flown 747s, and one of those was a former US air force commander for many years on a heavy jet.
The only other RJ guy from my course passed his interview.
So, where is all this stuff coming from?? Anyone else have some ACTUAL stats to back up the bias???
Maybe we should stop hiring 747 fo's since more of them failed the interview based on my experience?? Yes, that makes perfect sense.
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Anyone else have some ACTUAL stats to back up the bias???
Then this wouldn't be pprune!
You mean "My friend's sister's cousin's uncle's nanny's husband who's friends with a TRE who said the pass rate is 5.7% isn't hard actual facts?? Oh my
My experience is significantly different from others in this thread.
Everyone that I know who were previous RJ captains, which is about 10 or so people from all over the world (SA, EU and NA) all passed the upgrade on the first try with no failures, extra training required, etc.
It's funny how one always receives the unsolicited CV's from the folks with lower staff numbers, who are FO's, bragging about how they were 7(add your favorite digit here)7 captains before or how many hours and years they have as a 747 FO, etc....and none of them from the US in my experience.
People fail the upgrade because they aren't prepared, have other personal issues, or just have bad attitudes. What someone flew before coming to EK has no effect on whether or not they will upgrade...the factors above do.
Then this wouldn't be pprune!
You mean "My friend's sister's cousin's uncle's nanny's husband who's friends with a TRE who said the pass rate is 5.7% isn't hard actual facts?? Oh my
My experience is significantly different from others in this thread.
Everyone that I know who were previous RJ captains, which is about 10 or so people from all over the world (SA, EU and NA) all passed the upgrade on the first try with no failures, extra training required, etc.
It's funny how one always receives the unsolicited CV's from the folks with lower staff numbers, who are FO's, bragging about how they were 7(add your favorite digit here)7 captains before or how many hours and years they have as a 747 FO, etc....and none of them from the US in my experience.
People fail the upgrade because they aren't prepared, have other personal issues, or just have bad attitudes. What someone flew before coming to EK has no effect on whether or not they will upgrade...the factors above do.
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How much pilot development occurs prior to upgrade?
Is it tailored to the individual?
Is it tailored to the individual?
Whether there are the resources to do this is another matter. I see lots of talented individuals from all backgrounds in the right seat - Regionals, LoCo's and bigger stuff. When helping them out with the upgrade study / practise during flights and layovers I see lots of hard work being put in but just a lack of command experience to help with decision making... and that is not something that can be self-taught from a book but involves sitting down with experienced skippers and running through LOS style scenarios.
I have heard the company were planning to run a few classroom sessions along that line but I'm not sure whether they are tailored to individuals weaknesses?
MGC
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Which is why they would be better off hiring anyone with left seat experience. Any Dash 8 captain in Europe or NA would make an excellent choice especially considering upgrade time will be at 5-7 years. A guy with 5-6000 hours mostly left seat in a turboprop (or RJ), in my opinion, is a better bet than a 2500 hour guy from a 737.
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Just the climax of a prolonged ass licking exercise. If your tongue was too coarse might "they" might not have liked it and might not work out. No special skills, intelligence, airmanship required. Just dumb acceptance of the EK "style" and mnemonic capabilities to repeat the lesson at your interview like a 3 year old kid. Beside that interview questions tend to be the same so is just a matter of having the right insight just like for PPCs if you have the right acquaintances you have the full program in advance in your mail. Beside that being of certain nationalities may help . If you have a few "mates " in training you might find it easier than others. I personally participated in a final SIM in which the TRE was a good friend of the upgrading guy. He did a sub par job but he passed anyway and they went for dinner together and they did not even invited me...****ers. A complete pantomime and now some one, always the same EK sponsored pumpers ready to jump in to protect their masters , will write that I never worked for EK and that gives you the idea of the real " qualities" required to work for this arsholes.
Last edited by Jetaim; 10th Jul 2012 at 06:04.