EK DECs now on seniority list
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As opposed to you drinkers of the company Kool-Aid? We know this is the best job you have ever had. Do you honestly think EK can do no wrong?
I present for one the hiring of DECs (AGAIN!) is a pretty aggrievious wrong committted against all the pilots of Emirates. Just one of many insults thrown at us by the company.
I present for one the hiring of DECs (AGAIN!) is a pretty aggrievious wrong committted against all the pilots of Emirates. Just one of many insults thrown at us by the company.
short flights long nights
Bluebaron, if you join now as an FO you will be on the bottom of the list, regardless of hours/type experience. Upgrade time is anyones guess, 3 years, 5 years, 7 years who really knows.
I must admit though "The Don" is pretty well up with this stuff, and if he drops into this thread he may give some useful insight to your question.
I must admit though "The Don" is pretty well up with this stuff, and if he drops into this thread he may give some useful insight to your question.
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DEC with no experience....
A young guy from Ryanair, TRI, NO other experience than that, no long-haul operation, no wide body handling experience, has been hired as a DEC by EK, he starts this October the 5th.....
That is just
That is just
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A young guy from Ryanair,…so what….maybe he will stay with EK a long time.
TRI….well one day he might be a good trainer with EK.
NO other experience than that….so what. Maybe he's a top bloke and will be your mate one day (didn't think of that did you ).
No long-haul operations……give me a break…if your talking about ETOPS/FANS/NATS thats a sit down and listen/read/understand…all journeys wether its to the pub or the moon have basic decision points about your options to a useful piece of tarmac.( crater )
No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.
Has been hired as a DEC by EK….because he was interviewed and the company wants him…
Narrow minded.
TRI….well one day he might be a good trainer with EK.
NO other experience than that….so what. Maybe he's a top bloke and will be your mate one day (didn't think of that did you ).
No long-haul operations……give me a break…if your talking about ETOPS/FANS/NATS thats a sit down and listen/read/understand…all journeys wether its to the pub or the moon have basic decision points about your options to a useful piece of tarmac.( crater )
No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.
Has been hired as a DEC by EK….because he was interviewed and the company wants him…
Narrow minded.
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Originally Posted by Virgin Camel
No long-haul operations……give me a break…if your talking about ETOPS/FANS/NATS thats a sit down and listen/read/understand…all journeys wether its to the pub or the moon have basic decision points about your options to a useful piece of tarmac.( crater )
No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.
No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.
Why is it some pilots try to make long-haul, wide-body flying into a voodoo-like mystique?
Seriously FlyWildCamel - an aeroplane's an aeroplane's an aeroplane (or maybe airplane if you're from that side of the pond).
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WK
I agree that wide body flying is not such a big step up from narrow body as some make out. Getting used to height, momentum, fuel jettison, taxi and a few others comes very quickly.
However, flying the actual aircraft is often not the problem. Pilots fail upgrades on flight deck management, time management and decision making. For somebody coming from a short haul operation in Europe with plenty of options for their 737, to suddenly find themselves over the pole at night with a serious medical problem and no communication, the difference is massive. This is where experience can not be replaced. Most major airlines work short haul up. In other words, when you fly with the likes of BA, Lufthansa, Qantas, Delta etc, the guys flying the big metal have more experience than those flying short haul. Gained from years of flying with 'old hands' and years of familiarity with Company procedures, this is invaluble when the lights suddenly go out and you're miles from nowhere.
With so many newbies joining Emirates with only short haul under their belt, our Ryanair DEC may find himself very much alone. The weight of responsibility should never be underestimated, especially when it involves the lives of up to 400 people. And what of the new guys he operates with, how much experience will he actually be able to pass on in his first year or two? Start getting a few more DEC's with similar backgrounds and it doesn't take long for the dilution of knowledge to filter into the operation.
In my opinion, for a Company that prides itself on higher than industry standards, this is a retrograde step. Not only is it a slap in the face for some of our experienced and very capable F/O's, it's just another hole in the Swiss cheese that really shouldn't be there.
Harry
I agree that wide body flying is not such a big step up from narrow body as some make out. Getting used to height, momentum, fuel jettison, taxi and a few others comes very quickly.
However, flying the actual aircraft is often not the problem. Pilots fail upgrades on flight deck management, time management and decision making. For somebody coming from a short haul operation in Europe with plenty of options for their 737, to suddenly find themselves over the pole at night with a serious medical problem and no communication, the difference is massive. This is where experience can not be replaced. Most major airlines work short haul up. In other words, when you fly with the likes of BA, Lufthansa, Qantas, Delta etc, the guys flying the big metal have more experience than those flying short haul. Gained from years of flying with 'old hands' and years of familiarity with Company procedures, this is invaluble when the lights suddenly go out and you're miles from nowhere.
With so many newbies joining Emirates with only short haul under their belt, our Ryanair DEC may find himself very much alone. The weight of responsibility should never be underestimated, especially when it involves the lives of up to 400 people. And what of the new guys he operates with, how much experience will he actually be able to pass on in his first year or two? Start getting a few more DEC's with similar backgrounds and it doesn't take long for the dilution of knowledge to filter into the operation.
In my opinion, for a Company that prides itself on higher than industry standards, this is a retrograde step. Not only is it a slap in the face for some of our experienced and very capable F/O's, it's just another hole in the Swiss cheese that really shouldn't be there.
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 17th Jul 2012 at 09:34. Reason: Additional text.
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Well, this is not the case because I was not flying for Ryanair but, coming from 737 does not mean short of experience in long haul or things like ETOPS.
In my last company we were using 737-700/800 for 7 hours flights into Africa. You know, used to sh
weather conditions (ITCZ) and done thousands of hours in ETOPS flights.
I agree that my experience in wide body handling is 0 but, hey! did a nice visual circuit with the 777-200 in the sim
In my last company we were using 737-700/800 for 7 hours flights into Africa. You know, used to sh
weather conditions (ITCZ) and done thousands of hours in ETOPS flights.I agree that my experience in wide body handling is 0 but, hey! did a nice visual circuit with the 777-200 in the sim
I hope you are still so positive when the DEC keeps arriving and prevents your command Archer.
If you are, welcome on board. But please do give it some thought.
The Don
If you are, welcome on board. But please do give it some thought.
The Don
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No, I'm not positive. I just accepted to interview with EK knowing about DECs hiring so, I just accept it.
I was giving another point of view so we get a bigger and clear picture of what flying a 737 means.
But, if you want my opinion about DECs. Maybe I'll be worried when EK gets to the point where my last company was. National carrier with an average of 13 years at the RHS and a national union of pilots preventing expats to get a LHS.
"Resignation" could be the word.
I was giving another point of view so we get a bigger and clear picture of what flying a 737 means.
But, if you want my opinion about DECs. Maybe I'll be worried when EK gets to the point where my last company was. National carrier with an average of 13 years at the RHS and a national union of pilots preventing expats to get a LHS.
"Resignation" could be the word.
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I agree with you to some extent harry; however,
has probably only happened to a VERY VERY FEW pilots ever... So really, this would be down to being able to make command decisions, mustering your resources, time management etc as surely as you would an uncontrollable fire in an ERJ 145 say, over the Med.
Different problem, different place, different decisions but same basic methodology and thought processes I would say. Ergo; command time is command time whatever you've flown. Piloting a new aeroplane type at the same time should not be a problemt to any decent and capable pilot.
NOT that I agree with the DEC policy however. Just clarifying my thoughts regarding wide-body and long-haul. Easiest flying I've ever done
For somebody coming from a short haul operation in Europe with plenty of options for their 737, to suddenly find themselves over the pole at night with a serious medical problem and no communication, the difference is massive.
Different problem, different place, different decisions but same basic methodology and thought processes I would say. Ergo; command time is command time whatever you've flown. Piloting a new aeroplane type at the same time should not be a problemt to any decent and capable pilot.
NOT that I agree with the DEC policy however. Just clarifying my thoughts regarding wide-body and long-haul. Easiest flying I've ever done
DIRECTOR
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White Knight
You did not have to pilot a new aeroplane type and new routes as you joined EK as a F/O so how would you know?
However as someone who has I can tell you I found it no problem so I can confirm your theoretical viewpoint
You did not have to pilot a new aeroplane type and new routes as you joined EK as a F/O so how would you know?
However as someone who has I can tell you I found it no problem so I can confirm your theoretical viewpoint
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Yes, maybe long haul flying is easier than bombing round Europe in ****ty weather on 4 sector days. Sitting on the flight deck for 6 hours then another 6 hours in the bunk is great...... when everythings going okay.
Look, there will always be guys who are sharp cookies who will learn quickly. In fact, there's a good chance they may be quicker at adapting than older F/O's who've never had a command and are mid forties or later.
And whilst I agree that command is a mind set, it's always going to be based on experience and what you did with that experience. 20,000 hours is useless if you never learn. So, whilst we should all apply good CRM and use of resources, over relying on your F/O in time of crisis due to lack of experience is far from ideal.
For an airline of Emirates supposed calibre and standards, we should not be in a situation where we're even discussing these issues.
Harry
Look, there will always be guys who are sharp cookies who will learn quickly. In fact, there's a good chance they may be quicker at adapting than older F/O's who've never had a command and are mid forties or later.
And whilst I agree that command is a mind set, it's always going to be based on experience and what you did with that experience. 20,000 hours is useless if you never learn. So, whilst we should all apply good CRM and use of resources, over relying on your F/O in time of crisis due to lack of experience is far from ideal.
For an airline of Emirates supposed calibre and standards, we should not be in a situation where we're even discussing these issues.
Harry
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Harry,
Lots and lots and lots and lots of ex-major (BA, Cathy, EK, Singapore, Virgin) captains and white haired RAF pilots who help run the training department and fly the line at the Big Orange.
Maybe not the short-haul to long-haul, "with the same company procedures", but nonetheless, still flying with the same 30 year experienced captains that you talk of, and daily.
Great experience to have so many airlines ethos' being passed across over a working week. A real privilege and perhaps an ideal training environment.
Lots and lots and lots and lots of ex-major (BA, Cathy, EK, Singapore, Virgin) captains and white haired RAF pilots who help run the training department and fly the line at the Big Orange.
Maybe not the short-haul to long-haul, "with the same company procedures", but nonetheless, still flying with the same 30 year experienced captains that you talk of, and daily.
Great experience to have so many airlines ethos' being passed across over a working week. A real privilege and perhaps an ideal training environment.
Last edited by Craggenmore; 17th Jul 2012 at 14:52.
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to my humble opinion:
quite some wind-up waterproof fabrics around.
Its all so simple! NAC (upgrade)= 2x training; DEC= 1x training. $$$$
Life isn't fair... otherwise this wouldn't happen
quite some wind-up waterproof fabrics around.
Its all so simple! NAC (upgrade)= 2x training; DEC= 1x training. $$$$
Life isn't fair... otherwise this wouldn't happen
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To make a decent skipper on the EK fleets, imho you need both experiences, LH and SH.
A local who has started on a T7 and after 6000 hours passed his upgrade is basically as inadequate as a DEC who has 10000 hours but only SH experience.
It is not a coincidence that the most respected legacy carriers mainly build their career model around SH then LH experience for FOs, then upgrade on SH with transition to LH later.
The whole reason is that you build up experience with cycles, and LH does not provide enough in reasonable time. In addition you need experience of the specific leadership and management problems (not flying skills) that arise on LH, they are different.
Lack of either makes a less suitable skipper and with the big mouthed pretention of being among the best carriers, EK would be well advised to follow suit.
A local who has started on a T7 and after 6000 hours passed his upgrade is basically as inadequate as a DEC who has 10000 hours but only SH experience.
It is not a coincidence that the most respected legacy carriers mainly build their career model around SH then LH experience for FOs, then upgrade on SH with transition to LH later.
The whole reason is that you build up experience with cycles, and LH does not provide enough in reasonable time. In addition you need experience of the specific leadership and management problems (not flying skills) that arise on LH, they are different.
Lack of either makes a less suitable skipper and with the big mouthed pretention of being among the best carriers, EK would be well advised to follow suit.
Last edited by glofish; 18th Jul 2012 at 08:42.