EK DECs now on seniority list
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When you have 7 out of 8 fail it puts a hugh demand on the 330 Capt's to cover the flights. As Paycale said any relief for the 330 line capt should be welcome.If the pass rate was higher DEC 's would not be required.
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The reason for the high failure rate on the 330 is the large number of unsuitable weak candidates being put forward for command. i am sure if the line captains were asked to name who would struggle it would be the same names over and over again. This is where the seniority system becomes a problem as many of the high quality pilots are sitting in the right seat because all the training is being wasted on people who should never be considered for command.
I for one will also welcome any DEC on the 330 who will be able to reduce the workload, however its a shame for the many competent guys who will probably have their upgrades delayed.
The answer has to be a tightening up of the selection criteria and looking beyond if a guy can pass his PPC using the secret instructor notes.
I for one will also welcome any DEC on the 330 who will be able to reduce the workload, however its a shame for the many competent guys who will probably have their upgrades delayed.
The answer has to be a tightening up of the selection criteria and looking beyond if a guy can pass his PPC using the secret instructor notes.
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I will be the first to admit that the US Regionals pilots they hired 3-5 years ago are a problem. We all know they could not get hired at the majors in the US and had to settle for Emirates just to get off that 50 seat job stealing airplane.
However if they can not get through the upgrade process or pass their PPCs it is also a reflection on the training department.
Having said all that the DECs program is still a mistake. We will get LCC domestic narrowbody captains and hardly any International Widebody captains that we might or might not need. The DECs might provide some relief on both the 330 and 777 but very unneeded and undesired.
However if they can not get through the upgrade process or pass their PPCs it is also a reflection on the training department.
Having said all that the DECs program is still a mistake. We will get LCC domestic narrowbody captains and hardly any International Widebody captains that we might or might not need. The DECs might provide some relief on both the 330 and 777 but very unneeded and undesired.
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Excuse me but someone hired at EK 5 years ago is now at what? 3,500 to 4000 hours in the airplane, flying under their system, familiar with the procedures and these guys have gone thru what? 5 to 10 training events (don't know if F/O's train every six months or yearly at EK) if these guys are not passing their assessments for command, that is an indication of a systemic training problem, not what they flew before they came to EK, if these guys were really that weak as pilots, how on earth they pass their initial training then?
I suspect that EK is suffering from the common illness of unprecedented growth, training is not keeping up with the demand and the quality of training is degraded as a result
I suspect that EK is suffering from the common illness of unprecedented growth, training is not keeping up with the demand and the quality of training is degraded as a result
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When these guys were hired @5 years ago everyone said they are going to have a hard time with the upgrade and now they are. Alot has to do with attitude( I was a check airman). I hope I dont have to spell it out!
aveo,
Yes I do think EK hired Crj200 pilots some years ago. They do not hire them now.
Also Fleet decides who gets a command course, not training. Not that this place does much in the way of empire building...at all...really.
The Don
Yes I do think EK hired Crj200 pilots some years ago. They do not hire them now.
Also Fleet decides who gets a command course, not training. Not that this place does much in the way of empire building...at all...really.
The Don
Aveo,
There are great pilots and bad pilots from any type you want to name. I can't see why a jungle jet pilot would be any better or worse than anyone else. One of the better fellas I flew with came straight from a HS125 to an A330.
See the above posts re attitude.
The Don
There are great pilots and bad pilots from any type you want to name. I can't see why a jungle jet pilot would be any better or worse than anyone else. One of the better fellas I flew with came straight from a HS125 to an A330.
See the above posts re attitude.
The Don
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Attitude is a very broad brush. Its a combination of attitude and aptitude. Its not so much that they came offf the smaller jets, but more the their approach to the experience.
For better or worse it just didnt click with the way Emirates is geared.
Yes there are pilots down the list that probably are very suitable for the NaC course but they dont have the company requirements yet.
BTW there are no secret instructor notes, those are words from a paraniod pilot.
For better or worse it just didnt click with the way Emirates is geared.
Yes there are pilots down the list that probably are very suitable for the NaC course but they dont have the company requirements yet.
BTW there are no secret instructor notes, those are words from a paraniod pilot.
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I think he was referring to the 'FOR TRE's ONLY' notes..... that seem to find their way around via emails. You then get guys going into the sim prep'd for events. Pisses me off big time when they know a TCAS event is due and then immediately get on the 'radio' when they see traffic at 20 miles, 1200' below and climbing. Like you do that every day on the line, right? The same guy that almost took control twice in less than a minute during approach because he was expecting a pilot incap.
Sadly, these are the guys that often fail.
Sadly, these are the guys that often fail.
Last edited by BYMONEK; 3rd Jul 2012 at 20:23.
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Look, regardless of what or where you flew 4,5, 10 or even 20 years ago, the fact remains that they (FO's) were hired by EK and passed all the required training and LPC's plus thousands of hours of line flying. If they are not making it in upgrade then that is direct fault of the training here, which I think we can all attest is some of the worst "training" any of us have ever received. Of course, there are always the select few that have issues but if you look at a comparable air carrier anywhere else in the world I can almost guarantee you that they do not come anywhere close to the failure rates we do. Ask the new guys online (both initial and upgrade) and they will tell you; training and most importantly standardization among the trainers is nothing short of a joke. Heck, just look at the endless begging from training for new tri's and tre's! No one wants to do it anymore except for a "CV booster" which, as a result lies part of the problem. What other wide body carrier, let alone one so "prestigious" (and I use that word very loosely) as Emirates would dare think or have the need of promoting trainers at 600hrs command time? Now, before someone slags off and says something like "uhhh you must have failed something" or "you can leave if you don't like it" just stop, because neither are the problems here.
As for the people thinking its the RJ guys having issues: you guys need to get a clue. Not defending them but people at EK love making a big deal out of little things to make themselves look good or feel better than other's. It happens with everything here: "RJ guys don't deserve to fly heavy's", "Aussie's are anal arse's", "Cadets are idiots", "DEC's are unsafe", "airline time is required to be considered for EK, no other flight time is worthy", "2500hrs total time is to low", etc, etc, blah, blah.... It all come down to the fact that prejudices are for narrow minded fools, of which Emirates seems to be obviously hiring a lot of as of late.
Cheers,
CR
As for the people thinking its the RJ guys having issues: you guys need to get a clue. Not defending them but people at EK love making a big deal out of little things to make themselves look good or feel better than other's. It happens with everything here: "RJ guys don't deserve to fly heavy's", "Aussie's are anal arse's", "Cadets are idiots", "DEC's are unsafe", "airline time is required to be considered for EK, no other flight time is worthy", "2500hrs total time is to low", etc, etc, blah, blah.... It all come down to the fact that prejudices are for narrow minded fools, of which Emirates seems to be obviously hiring a lot of as of late.
Cheers,
CR
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Payscale I think you did not get what I meant perhaps I should have been clearer. BYMONEK explained it very well, everyone goes into the sim knowing EXACTLY what they are going to get and in what order after getting the For Tre Only notes. This is no way to judge if a pilot is suitable for upgrade and is being proved in the Airbus failure rate.
The pass rate for the recurrent PPC looks good on paper and the training management give themselves a big pat on the back for it but when it comes to preparing and judging if someone is suitable for command it's just not realistic. To put a pilot forward they should be almost certain the pilot will pass but at the moment that's just not the case and it needs to change or we will keep having this crazy situation like a recent course where 7 out of 8 failed.
The pass rate for the recurrent PPC looks good on paper and the training management give themselves a big pat on the back for it but when it comes to preparing and judging if someone is suitable for command it's just not realistic. To put a pilot forward they should be almost certain the pilot will pass but at the moment that's just not the case and it needs to change or we will keep having this crazy situation like a recent course where 7 out of 8 failed.
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Contacted
That sounds great and would apply to a normal environment. EK however is far from that.
It is certainly desirable to be confronted with an unexpected situation and every pilot would like to be trained in such a way. The solutions and decisions will however be quite varied and many of them could lead to Rome or good training experience.
At EK unfortunately this cannot be applied. The simple reason is that for any situation there is a procedure, briefing, memo, technique, paragraph or FCTM jewel, or simply a ghostly way of 'it has always been done that way' that no one can find anywhere however is religiously followed by the ever increasing TRI/E with 3 months of captaincy and a total of 600h on the LHS.
If you dare to adopt any other procedure, be it the most logical, common sensed and airmanship-proven thing, you will get the ominous 3 and a comment that is was basically ok, BUT .....
Even if Training can surmount this crippling disease, the CP's will uphold their Damocles sword of insane omnipotence, simply not to let common sense gain too much of a stronghold, they'd be eliminated by it too fast.
I see a lot of good aviators, coming from all different types and regions, who within 3 years mutate to EK-Borgs, handling everything through the zillions of books and FCIs. This works as long as it works, and in my opinion EK has been extremely lucky up to today, but for an upgrade such aviation behavior is inadequate.
Contacted nicely described the predominant general attitude towards any work in the SIM. That has been cultivated and it is basically a shame. I do however understand each and every FO trying to get any available information as to be able to reproduce robot-like the exact outline of the right side of the TREs notes.
They simply want to pass the hoops and loops at this company!
Not very encouraging for future hick-ups, but that's the way it is.
That sounds great and would apply to a normal environment. EK however is far from that.
It is certainly desirable to be confronted with an unexpected situation and every pilot would like to be trained in such a way. The solutions and decisions will however be quite varied and many of them could lead to Rome or good training experience.
At EK unfortunately this cannot be applied. The simple reason is that for any situation there is a procedure, briefing, memo, technique, paragraph or FCTM jewel, or simply a ghostly way of 'it has always been done that way' that no one can find anywhere however is religiously followed by the ever increasing TRI/E with 3 months of captaincy and a total of 600h on the LHS.
If you dare to adopt any other procedure, be it the most logical, common sensed and airmanship-proven thing, you will get the ominous 3 and a comment that is was basically ok, BUT .....
Even if Training can surmount this crippling disease, the CP's will uphold their Damocles sword of insane omnipotence, simply not to let common sense gain too much of a stronghold, they'd be eliminated by it too fast.
I see a lot of good aviators, coming from all different types and regions, who within 3 years mutate to EK-Borgs, handling everything through the zillions of books and FCIs. This works as long as it works, and in my opinion EK has been extremely lucky up to today, but for an upgrade such aviation behavior is inadequate.
Contacted nicely described the predominant general attitude towards any work in the SIM. That has been cultivated and it is basically a shame. I do however understand each and every FO trying to get any available information as to be able to reproduce robot-like the exact outline of the right side of the TREs notes.
They simply want to pass the hoops and loops at this company!
Not very encouraging for future hick-ups, but that's the way it is.
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I agree with CR9 and many others here.
An upgrade course should have a 90% pass rate and if a candidate fails, it should be the INSTRUCTOR'S fault. Most TRI's and TRE's are in it for the money and not the love of teaching. Sadly enough, I'm afraid some do it for the power trip and the extra star on their jacket. The best teachers are regular captains but they avoid the training dept like the plague for obvious reasons.
A successful TRAINING program should boast about how they can TRAIN candidates to a 90% success rate...
Everyone here passed the real test..the interview. The FO's aren't stupid. As it stands now, your success for EK command is about 80% preparation and 20% luck on who your TRI/TRE is...that's not good or fair.
An upgrade candidate should be assigned one or two TRI's the entire training program, and only be examined by a TRE at the END of each stage of training, not every single "training" lesson.
Like I said, a normal airline should have a 90% success rate for upgrade and if a candidate fails, it should be the TRI's fault for not properly preparing his student. If the student needs more training, well, instead of failing them, give them more training without destroying his confidence. Of course, some don't have the decision making skills and are un-trainable for command, hence the other 10%. That is industry standard.
When I was an instructor, and if I had a student fail, it was my fault. If I didn't think a student was ready for his checkride, I didn't recommend him or transferred him off to another instructor that could do a better job than I.
Emirates training is a culture of fear. it is not a healthy learning environment. Its breeding a blurry line what is SOP and what isn't. And what is most frightening, it is breeding awful CRM.
DEC's from another airline might be a good thing. Bring some new blood, new, fresh ideas. Inbreeding isn't good. 600 hr TRI's teaching new FO's that become 600 hr TRI's, the inbreeding continues.
I think top mngt EK is starting to get the idea finally, especially when its costing them $$$$
An upgrade course should have a 90% pass rate and if a candidate fails, it should be the INSTRUCTOR'S fault. Most TRI's and TRE's are in it for the money and not the love of teaching. Sadly enough, I'm afraid some do it for the power trip and the extra star on their jacket. The best teachers are regular captains but they avoid the training dept like the plague for obvious reasons.
A successful TRAINING program should boast about how they can TRAIN candidates to a 90% success rate...
Everyone here passed the real test..the interview. The FO's aren't stupid. As it stands now, your success for EK command is about 80% preparation and 20% luck on who your TRI/TRE is...that's not good or fair.
An upgrade candidate should be assigned one or two TRI's the entire training program, and only be examined by a TRE at the END of each stage of training, not every single "training" lesson.
Like I said, a normal airline should have a 90% success rate for upgrade and if a candidate fails, it should be the TRI's fault for not properly preparing his student. If the student needs more training, well, instead of failing them, give them more training without destroying his confidence. Of course, some don't have the decision making skills and are un-trainable for command, hence the other 10%. That is industry standard.
When I was an instructor, and if I had a student fail, it was my fault. If I didn't think a student was ready for his checkride, I didn't recommend him or transferred him off to another instructor that could do a better job than I.
Emirates training is a culture of fear. it is not a healthy learning environment. Its breeding a blurry line what is SOP and what isn't. And what is most frightening, it is breeding awful CRM.
DEC's from another airline might be a good thing. Bring some new blood, new, fresh ideas. Inbreeding isn't good. 600 hr TRI's teaching new FO's that become 600 hr TRI's, the inbreeding continues.
I think top mngt EK is starting to get the idea finally, especially when its costing them $$$$
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Contacted--I have to respectfully disagree.
The issue if whether or not pilots know what is to occur in the sim is irrelevant. The structure of a recurrent does not mimic a line flight first of all and, most importantly, it is meant to be a TRAINING flight (at least in the current system it is where in the session that follows this 6 months later it will be treated as a PPC).
So there is more value in being able to prepare thoroughly, understand the system background and the failure(s) and then practice them in the sim. Especially when the sim session is busy for the full 4 hours.
The LOS/LOE's during the upgrade are the exact opposite of what we do in the recurrent. They mimic a regular day with one major failure and perhaps a few very minor ones. The idea being to give the new commander a realistic scenario that developes his decision making and management.
Trying to throw an FO in the left seat before upgrade training to 'see' how he does will achieve NOTHING!!! He is unfamiliar with the seat and procedures from that side. You can demonstrate all you need to from the right seat.
It appears that most failures are not due to tech knowledge or handling but to poor management. That shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone. This will become more of an issue since over the next few years most of the upgrades will have had no previous command time.
The issue, in my opinion, is not the aircraft you came from but the seat!!! I think you would be better off hiring turboprop captains then low time 737 FO's when it comes to upgrades. A left seat in ANY aircraft prepares you for a captaincy here at EK. The RJ guys that are here that came from the left seat, I am guessing, have no difficulty upgrading.
The issue if whether or not pilots know what is to occur in the sim is irrelevant. The structure of a recurrent does not mimic a line flight first of all and, most importantly, it is meant to be a TRAINING flight (at least in the current system it is where in the session that follows this 6 months later it will be treated as a PPC).
So there is more value in being able to prepare thoroughly, understand the system background and the failure(s) and then practice them in the sim. Especially when the sim session is busy for the full 4 hours.
The LOS/LOE's during the upgrade are the exact opposite of what we do in the recurrent. They mimic a regular day with one major failure and perhaps a few very minor ones. The idea being to give the new commander a realistic scenario that developes his decision making and management.
Trying to throw an FO in the left seat before upgrade training to 'see' how he does will achieve NOTHING!!! He is unfamiliar with the seat and procedures from that side. You can demonstrate all you need to from the right seat.
It appears that most failures are not due to tech knowledge or handling but to poor management. That shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone. This will become more of an issue since over the next few years most of the upgrades will have had no previous command time.
The issue, in my opinion, is not the aircraft you came from but the seat!!! I think you would be better off hiring turboprop captains then low time 737 FO's when it comes to upgrades. A left seat in ANY aircraft prepares you for a captaincy here at EK. The RJ guys that are here that came from the left seat, I am guessing, have no difficulty upgrading.
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Wrong Trader. The RJ pilots no matter which seat they came from are having a historically high failure rate hence the DECs. When the Talking Horse was here he said they will never hire RJ pilots again. His words were it was too much of a learning curve for them and cost EK money in extra training.
Emirates went basically from late 2008 to late 2009 without hiring any pilots. Also on either side of those dates Emirates hired a lot of RJ pilots and with their high failure rates now Emirates is stuck with pilots that can't upgrade and a year hole in the upgrade process. Again we are stuck with DECs.
Emirates went basically from late 2008 to late 2009 without hiring any pilots. Also on either side of those dates Emirates hired a lot of RJ pilots and with their high failure rates now Emirates is stuck with pilots that can't upgrade and a year hole in the upgrade process. Again we are stuck with DECs.
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You can't compare EK to the traditional carriers on upgrade pass rates as the traditional carriers would have FOs sitting in the right hand seat a hell of a lot longer observing both the right and wrong ways of flying. Ek tries to get away with quicker upgrades for people with previous command time and unfortunately if no prior command time, the failure rate is going to be higher. Gone are the days of 6000 hour piston/turboprop guys coming through and you can't blame these new guys with 6000 hrs right hand seat jet not being ready - it's the nature of the beast.
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In the US in the late 60s and early 70s airlines were putting 200 hour Draft Dodgers in the right seat of 707s and they did not have the problmes Emirates is having with the RJ pilots.
Is it the RJ pilots or is it the Training Dept?
Is it the RJ pilots or is it the Training Dept?
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"Is it the RJ pilots or is it the Training Dept?"
Its unprepared pilots. This is not a train to standard airline and some pilots come and don't really put in the work prior to the upgraded. The failure rate is @ 10-15% over the last the year, with a few bumps along the way.
Its very easy to blame the training dept, thats a cop out, the real problem is the pilots themselves who for the most part think they were more than ready and are too small to admit they just did a poor job.
Its unprepared pilots. This is not a train to standard airline and some pilots come and don't really put in the work prior to the upgraded. The failure rate is @ 10-15% over the last the year, with a few bumps along the way.
Its very easy to blame the training dept, thats a cop out, the real problem is the pilots themselves who for the most part think they were more than ready and are too small to admit they just did a poor job.
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The RJ problems were caused by certain nationalities that grudges against others, an EMB 190 is much more advanced than 330, just a mafioso excuse to keep certain folks out
Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....
Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....
Last edited by ironbutt57; 5th Jul 2012 at 10:32.
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Seriously enough with the RJ pilot crap.
RJs are doing exactly the same type of flying as a 737/320
cruising at same lvls flying at same speeds both have EFIS and doing 4-6 flights a day.
Just because a 737/320 is bigger doesn't mean that the CAs flying them have better experience , SA ,CRM etc etc... Looking at this logic then a 330 CA should never go fly a 380 or 777 just because they do Indian Turnarounds, flying smaller airplane and never crossed the North Atlantic .
RJs are doing exactly the same type of flying as a 737/320
cruising at same lvls flying at same speeds both have EFIS and doing 4-6 flights a day.
Just because a 737/320 is bigger doesn't mean that the CAs flying them have better experience , SA ,CRM etc etc... Looking at this logic then a 330 CA should never go fly a 380 or 777 just because they do Indian Turnarounds, flying smaller airplane and never crossed the North Atlantic .