EK trainer's "pay"
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: the ridge where the west commences
Posts: 770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK trainer's "pay"
I see they are again begging people to join this highly-attractive position. Does anyone know if they have perhaps considered altering the pay to something non-risible?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SS - That is an incredibly accurate assessment of the problems within training! It's hard to believe that a company the size of EK is virtually begging people to join the training department.
"We'll give you a little star on your uniform" just doesn't do it really
"We'll give you a little star on your uniform" just doesn't do it really
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,832
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"We'll give you a little star on your uniform" just doesn't do it really
Bless 'em
Join Date: May 2008
Location: pit
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's the seesaw of life. Once it shifted to one side it takes a lot of effort to make it come up and fall on the other side.
It's quite stable once on ground on either side!
At the moment it's steady on the dirty side. Who would want to go there? Maybe mudwrestlers.
On the other hand I know of at least two guys who were not considered for training who would bring in some competence and a lot of aviation common sense.
But I guess that was the very reason for the rejection which points to some more serious problems in training than the dire T&C's.
It's quite stable once on ground on either side!
At the moment it's steady on the dirty side. Who would want to go there? Maybe mudwrestlers.
On the other hand I know of at least two guys who were not considered for training who would bring in some competence and a lot of aviation common sense.
But I guess that was the very reason for the rejection which points to some more serious problems in training than the dire T&C's.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slightly off topic but reflective perhaps of the current culture within this Company.
Cabin crew have seen a miserly increase just announced with pursers getting a grand total of 100 dhs a month extra on basic. Their flight pay has been increased by 2 or 3 dhs an hour. My calculations makes that a 2% rise on basic and just under 3 on flight pay. That averages out at just under 2.5% overall. Half of their salary is made up of flight pay hence their indifference also to the profit share. The purser last night was livid. A 'smack in the face' was how she described it after 18 months of 115-125 hour months and 7-8 days off. She said that was the decision made and would be leaving in November. When she does, she will personaly give KG a 100 dhs note and tell him to put it towards filling up his Company Mercedes GL. "What can I realistically do with just another 100 dhs a month with prices rising everywhere", she said. "I'd rather go back home and be poor than poor here!" The really sad part was that she meant it. She was also bloody brilliant at her job and was, without doubt, one of the better pursers i've recently flown with. She said she was also tired of flying with incompetent crew, especially some SFS's who were there only because of a clean sickness record and nothing to do with ability, common sense and personality.
Doesn't it just sum up how greed is slowly destroying this airline. I'm not sure how many are leaving each month but with the large numbers needed, I can only see things getting worse on the other side of the door within the next 6-12 months.
Harry
Cabin crew have seen a miserly increase just announced with pursers getting a grand total of 100 dhs a month extra on basic. Their flight pay has been increased by 2 or 3 dhs an hour. My calculations makes that a 2% rise on basic and just under 3 on flight pay. That averages out at just under 2.5% overall. Half of their salary is made up of flight pay hence their indifference also to the profit share. The purser last night was livid. A 'smack in the face' was how she described it after 18 months of 115-125 hour months and 7-8 days off. She said that was the decision made and would be leaving in November. When she does, she will personaly give KG a 100 dhs note and tell him to put it towards filling up his Company Mercedes GL. "What can I realistically do with just another 100 dhs a month with prices rising everywhere", she said. "I'd rather go back home and be poor than poor here!" The really sad part was that she meant it. She was also bloody brilliant at her job and was, without doubt, one of the better pursers i've recently flown with. She said she was also tired of flying with incompetent crew, especially some SFS's who were there only because of a clean sickness record and nothing to do with ability, common sense and personality.
Doesn't it just sum up how greed is slowly destroying this airline. I'm not sure how many are leaving each month but with the large numbers needed, I can only see things getting worse on the other side of the door within the next 6-12 months.
Harry
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post Harry.
With all the pontificating going on from us guys about the package, it's easy to forget how badly those working just a few feet behind the FD door are treated.... an absolutely contemptuous package increase for them!!!
The 8.15% increase on a Capts basic alone is more than the entire basic salary of a Grade 2!
What we have here then is a classic example of supply and demand..... on the one hand, you have the Pilot application pool running VERY close to empty (only about 4 months worth of interviewees left to plough through apparently), hence the company had no choice but to put its hands in its pockets (not very deeply and IMHO not nearly deeply enough to solve the impending problem) and give us a package increase.
On the other hand, you have a seemingly never ending supply of young, keen kids from some of the worlds nastiest poo holes who are literally banging the door down to join the 'mighty' Emirates. It's not uncommon for a Crew road show to attract over 500 attendees in one day of which only 10 will be taken on...... Nevertheless, they just keep on coming!
So clearly from an accountants point of view, they really cant justify giving the crew a decent package enhancement. Unfortunately, the reality is that our crew are getting less and less experienced and are generally from parts of the world where customer service doesn't exist! Don't even get me started on the safety implications
There is no question in my mind that this mentality will eventually come round and bite the company in on the bottom!
With all the pontificating going on from us guys about the package, it's easy to forget how badly those working just a few feet behind the FD door are treated.... an absolutely contemptuous package increase for them!!!
The 8.15% increase on a Capts basic alone is more than the entire basic salary of a Grade 2!
What we have here then is a classic example of supply and demand..... on the one hand, you have the Pilot application pool running VERY close to empty (only about 4 months worth of interviewees left to plough through apparently), hence the company had no choice but to put its hands in its pockets (not very deeply and IMHO not nearly deeply enough to solve the impending problem) and give us a package increase.
On the other hand, you have a seemingly never ending supply of young, keen kids from some of the worlds nastiest poo holes who are literally banging the door down to join the 'mighty' Emirates. It's not uncommon for a Crew road show to attract over 500 attendees in one day of which only 10 will be taken on...... Nevertheless, they just keep on coming!
So clearly from an accountants point of view, they really cant justify giving the crew a decent package enhancement. Unfortunately, the reality is that our crew are getting less and less experienced and are generally from parts of the world where customer service doesn't exist! Don't even get me started on the safety implications
There is no question in my mind that this mentality will eventually come round and bite the company in on the bottom!
Slight correction there Oblaapspop, we got a 5% pay rise. The other 3% is the increment. Those on the top of the scale only received 5%.
Too bloody right though, the cabin crew are treated very badly. The basic pay of a grade 2 has only increased by a few hundred dirhams in the past decade. The company relies on lack of corporate memory (ie want cabin crew to leave) so no one notices.
The Don
PS. It would seem the whole company has been informed about the traing allowance increase, except of course the trainers themselves that have been told nothing. A good reflection of how the group are held in the eyes of the management. An interesting way to run a business.
Too bloody right though, the cabin crew are treated very badly. The basic pay of a grade 2 has only increased by a few hundred dirhams in the past decade. The company relies on lack of corporate memory (ie want cabin crew to leave) so no one notices.
The Don
PS. It would seem the whole company has been informed about the traing allowance increase, except of course the trainers themselves that have been told nothing. A good reflection of how the group are held in the eyes of the management. An interesting way to run a business.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, funny you mention safety. We had a quick chat after the flight. It was then she told me that the pre flight briefing was a disaster. The SFS had failed her question and the second question. She barely got the third right even after the purser was kind enough to 'come back to her after she's gone around the room'.
The SFS didn't know the % of lifejackets to check and basic stuff on Oxygen. And this is supposed to be a senior crew member who leads by example. She even had the ovens switched on for T/O.
Only wish i'd known this on the turnround as a little chat would have been in order.
Anyway, sorry for threadcreep, back to the training debacle!
Harry
Don. Yeah, agreed with the payrise. I never include the increment in the rise. That's a reward for seniority. The 5% is something different.
The SFS didn't know the % of lifejackets to check and basic stuff on Oxygen. And this is supposed to be a senior crew member who leads by example. She even had the ovens switched on for T/O.
Only wish i'd known this on the turnround as a little chat would have been in order.
Anyway, sorry for threadcreep, back to the training debacle!
Harry
Don. Yeah, agreed with the payrise. I never include the increment in the rise. That's a reward for seniority. The 5% is something different.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Terra Firma
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Around high 40s of new Jets to be delivered to EK by end of next year!! Thats a LOAD of crew front and back. The company knows that the pilot brotherhood is small and close. If the company pays the drivers crap then we send the word out and at home people decide not to come, simple as that and the company CAN'T AFFORD not to have the drivers for their billion dollar deliveries.
Cabin crew selection, well they recruit from all areas on the planet where people are willing to do the C Crew job and will be pleased to get 3500AED a month here. It's market forces plain and simple.
SFS and Purser selection is by negative selection I agree. Some great crew have come and gone because of this incompetent policy of number of sick days taken as the primary attribute for the position. Having flown well over 2 decades, I can honestly say there are quite a few incompetent Purser and SFS crew down the back who could be replaced with competent crew who have been prevented gaining the position. What to do, incompetence breeds incompetence as we can see from the selection of these crew.
Regarding trainers in EK, if anyone has any complaints and is not a trainer then don't complain as you have no knowledge except rumours as to what goes on in the training department. The trainers do a thankless task and without the training checking going on there would be no airline. Those who are in the training department are working extremely hard to keep up with demands as others are too afraid to join the department, due to lack of competence or whatever other reason they come up with. The sooner the training department comes up to manning strength and more people are trained into the L + R seats the easier all our lives will become to help with the ever increasing demands from the company. If you want to work the same number of days in a month as a line pilot and take another reasonable salary for the same number of days at work, go apply, if not... no knowledge means no comment.
Cabin crew selection, well they recruit from all areas on the planet where people are willing to do the C Crew job and will be pleased to get 3500AED a month here. It's market forces plain and simple.
SFS and Purser selection is by negative selection I agree. Some great crew have come and gone because of this incompetent policy of number of sick days taken as the primary attribute for the position. Having flown well over 2 decades, I can honestly say there are quite a few incompetent Purser and SFS crew down the back who could be replaced with competent crew who have been prevented gaining the position. What to do, incompetence breeds incompetence as we can see from the selection of these crew.
Regarding trainers in EK, if anyone has any complaints and is not a trainer then don't complain as you have no knowledge except rumours as to what goes on in the training department. The trainers do a thankless task and without the training checking going on there would be no airline. Those who are in the training department are working extremely hard to keep up with demands as others are too afraid to join the department, due to lack of competence or whatever other reason they come up with. The sooner the training department comes up to manning strength and more people are trained into the L + R seats the easier all our lives will become to help with the ever increasing demands from the company. If you want to work the same number of days in a month as a line pilot and take another reasonable salary for the same number of days at work, go apply, if not... no knowledge means no comment.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you don't respect training management how can you apply to be a trainer.
Perhaps this is where they should start if they are having trouble attracting new trainers.
So many experienced, good and senior trainers in the company but none in positions of training management. Why is that?
MM. Another SVP. Can't leave well-enough alone. Wants to create a brave new world.
RN. Who?
DM. Enough said.
I could go on but what's the point?
Perhaps this is where they should start if they are having trouble attracting new trainers.
So many experienced, good and senior trainers in the company but none in positions of training management. Why is that?
MM. Another SVP. Can't leave well-enough alone. Wants to create a brave new world.
RN. Who?
DM. Enough said.
I could go on but what's the point?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thrush, I actually think MM has done a hell of a lot of good for the dept! Sadly despite his best efforts, he is continually hitting his head against the ceiling of incompetence above him (AAR) who refuses to acknowledge there's a problem. MM was actually pushing for a SIGNIFICANT increase in Trainers packages and lifestyles, but was granted just a 1000 AED increase!
RN - Again he has done a lot of good since he has been fronting his section. He managed to go through the Boeing training dept with a big axe and chop a lot of guys who had clung on for way too long..... He trod where others feared to!
Both of these guys are generally well liked and respected amongst the Trainers working for them, so what is your point?
Princess MeMe aka DM on the other hand....... I completely agree with you on that one...... Oxygen thief!!
RN - Again he has done a lot of good since he has been fronting his section. He managed to go through the Boeing training dept with a big axe and chop a lot of guys who had clung on for way too long..... He trod where others feared to!
Both of these guys are generally well liked and respected amongst the Trainers working for them, so what is your point?
Princess MeMe aka DM on the other hand.......
I completely agree with you on that one...... Oxygen thief!!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The middle east
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instead we have guys who, after a few drinks at the BBQ, openly confess that they applied only to improve their rosters!
Join Date: May 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ob's,
The point is, who are the 'customers' of the training department?
Mainly line pilots.
Who is the training department trying to attract to become trainers?
Line pilots.
Whether or not you, as a trainer, respect your bosses is irrelevant as I (for one), cannot see the good you are talking about.
I can see that every training event is now graded and can be failed (that doesn't concern me particularly however I have an issue with the 'concept' of failing a training session).
I can see a change to the format of PPCs and whatever it is you call the new 'check' and wonder why. Evidence-based training? Please. What professor in some university who has never flown an aircraft came up with that? Reason?
I can also see a newbie network of 'old boys' taking over when we already have good guys onboard who are being passed over, or not applying to be management, for some reason, i.e. AS, JA, MM, RN...care to comment?
And one final point. Who earns money for the airline? Line pilots or trainers? The training department is a cost. Airplanes from A to B earn revenue. I fail to see how trainers expect to earn more money. Non-flying trainers and checkers would be a cheaper option all round.
The point is, who are the 'customers' of the training department?
Mainly line pilots.
Who is the training department trying to attract to become trainers?
Line pilots.
Whether or not you, as a trainer, respect your bosses is irrelevant as I (for one), cannot see the good you are talking about.
I can see that every training event is now graded and can be failed (that doesn't concern me particularly however I have an issue with the 'concept' of failing a training session).
I can see a change to the format of PPCs and whatever it is you call the new 'check' and wonder why. Evidence-based training? Please. What professor in some university who has never flown an aircraft came up with that? Reason?
I can also see a newbie network of 'old boys' taking over when we already have good guys onboard who are being passed over, or not applying to be management, for some reason, i.e. AS, JA, MM, RN...care to comment?
And one final point. Who earns money for the airline? Line pilots or trainers? The training department is a cost. Airplanes from A to B earn revenue. I fail to see how trainers expect to earn more money. Non-flying trainers and checkers would be a cheaper option all round.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dubai
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if anyone has any complaints and is not a trainer then don't complain as you have no knowledge except rumours
I have many complaints about what you are letting through, Jack. This is my right.
Cabin crew have seen a miserly increase just announced with pursers getting a grand total of 100 dhs a month extra on basic
But the general CC standard is disinterested, lackadaisical, grudging "service" by crew who have not the slightest motivation beyond JUST maintaining what their impression of the required standards has devolved to over the years. Barely able and/or willing to hold a conversation, they make no effort to hide the fact they have little, if any, interest in the well-being of the flight crew and so they shouldn't be surprised if many drivers do not give a rat's ass about their conditions!
Varmint,
I am sorry to hear that you have had a hard time with the EK training department. But you see the TRE that is conducting your check gets to see the other few thousand of your colleagues as well, and he will be looking at your performance vs theirs. If your colleagues have taken the time to learn the EK SOP, and the correct way to talk on the radio, they will be marked higher than you. Its that simple really. Unfortunately it EKs train set and if you want to work here you have to play with it using their rules. If you think things should be changed, write in and make suggestions.
I am sure you spent many minutes learning the answers to your ATP exam, and were highly regarded when flying regional, however you decided to leave that. You decided that EK was a better airline for you than where you were before. But now you want EK to drop its training standards to your level. The vast majority of our pilots are to an incredibly high standard. They get off their @rses and study and prepare before going to a training or checking session. There are a few who turn up and expect to be spoon fed, and will whinge and make up excuse after excuse about why they can't perform as well as their peers. These are the guys that make the trainer want to, as you suggested, "puke".
Good on you for being able to fly the EK network. This would also be the same network that the trainers would fly wouldn't it? Or does it all become less complicated and easier when they fly it?
The Don
I am sorry to hear that you have had a hard time with the EK training department. But you see the TRE that is conducting your check gets to see the other few thousand of your colleagues as well, and he will be looking at your performance vs theirs. If your colleagues have taken the time to learn the EK SOP, and the correct way to talk on the radio, they will be marked higher than you. Its that simple really. Unfortunately it EKs train set and if you want to work here you have to play with it using their rules. If you think things should be changed, write in and make suggestions.
I am sure you spent many minutes learning the answers to your ATP exam, and were highly regarded when flying regional, however you decided to leave that. You decided that EK was a better airline for you than where you were before. But now you want EK to drop its training standards to your level. The vast majority of our pilots are to an incredibly high standard. They get off their @rses and study and prepare before going to a training or checking session. There are a few who turn up and expect to be spoon fed, and will whinge and make up excuse after excuse about why they can't perform as well as their peers. These are the guys that make the trainer want to, as you suggested, "puke".
Good on you for being able to fly the EK network. This would also be the same network that the trainers would fly wouldn't it? Or does it all become less complicated and easier when they fly it?
The Don
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: dubai
Age: 39
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE=Fack5;6463607
But the general CC standard is disinterested, lackadaisical, grudging "service" by crew who have not the slightest motivation beyond JUST maintaining what their impression of the required standards has devolved to over the years. Barely able and/or willing to hold a conversation, they make no effort to hide the fact they have little, if any, interest in the well-being of the flight crew and so they shouldn't be surprised if many drivers do not give a rat's ass about their conditions![/QUOTE]
Agreed, most of the time the pilots i serve are courteous, respectful and reasonable.
But every now and then, i get, "please get me a bowl of nuts, remove the macademias and almonds', or " Non Emirates or Dubai water" "put together a meal from five different casseroles"
Last time i checked, i wasnt your wife, is what i really want to say.
But the general CC standard is disinterested, lackadaisical, grudging "service" by crew who have not the slightest motivation beyond JUST maintaining what their impression of the required standards has devolved to over the years. Barely able and/or willing to hold a conversation, they make no effort to hide the fact they have little, if any, interest in the well-being of the flight crew and so they shouldn't be surprised if many drivers do not give a rat's ass about their conditions!
[/QUOTE]Agreed, most of the time the pilots i serve are courteous, respectful and reasonable.
But every now and then, i get, "please get me a bowl of nuts, remove the macademias and almonds', or " Non Emirates or Dubai water" "put together a meal from five different casseroles"
Last time i checked, i wasnt your wife, is what i really want to say.
Dubaicrew, most of the wives wouldn't be doing that either, the maid would 
Agree, there are (thankfully a minority) of FD crew out there who think we have all the time in the world to cater to their sometimes bizarre requests. There are, however, an equal amount of cabin crew who think they are above accommodating even the slightest request for something that deviates from the norm. Want to BYO your own lunch Captain? Certainly, give me some notice as to when you want it & I'll gladly heat it up. You want a different dressing on the salad, okay, I'll go ask F if they have another type. Just please be patient if you call us in the middle of a service
Does annoy me to see crew who just can't be bothered to even go and say "hi" once on an 8-hour plus flight... c'mon, it's 30sec out of your life and a chance to escape from the back for a bit. Some cabin crew complain that cockpit never talk much about anything. Err... last time I checked a conversation was 2 sided, ask them stuff, about their family, where they're from, that iPad they're not supposed to be using...
Sorry for the thread drift, back to the point, it seems many of the problems/issues we as crew (either FD or CC) have with the company boil down to management not recognising that not everything comes down to money and the beancounters ignoring things which may not be immediately measurable in money (i.e. morale, sense of engagement etc) but which if taken care of properly will more than pay for any initial investment in the long run. The areas which usually suffer are training and working conditions.
Just look at the airline industry elsewhere to see how that one can work out...
Agree, there are (thankfully a minority) of FD crew out there who think we have all the time in the world to cater to their sometimes bizarre requests. There are, however, an equal amount of cabin crew who think they are above accommodating even the slightest request for something that deviates from the norm. Want to BYO your own lunch Captain? Certainly, give me some notice as to when you want it & I'll gladly heat it up. You want a different dressing on the salad, okay, I'll go ask F if they have another type. Just please be patient if you call us in the middle of a service
Does annoy me to see crew who just can't be bothered to even go and say "hi" once on an 8-hour plus flight... c'mon, it's 30sec out of your life and a chance to escape from the back for a bit. Some cabin crew complain that cockpit never talk much about anything. Err... last time I checked a conversation was 2 sided, ask them stuff, about their family, where they're from, that iPad they're not supposed to be using...
Sorry for the thread drift, back to the point, it seems many of the problems/issues we as crew (either FD or CC) have with the company boil down to management not recognising that not everything comes down to money and the beancounters ignoring things which may not be immediately measurable in money (i.e. morale, sense of engagement etc) but which if taken care of properly will more than pay for any initial investment in the long run. The areas which usually suffer are training and working conditions.
Just look at the airline industry elsewhere to see how that one can work out...