Prestige Jet- All Merged Threads
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What if...
What if these people are not so intelligent as to be as conniving and venal as some think them to be - what if they are just jerks? Jerks who don't care about anybody but themselves, but jerks, nonetheless...
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Jerks VS Venal
Dear KF,
I am sure that you will agree that the intention is not to analyze personalities in this thread. But I would say that a "jerk" is not necessarily "mean" and "evil". Denying people's rights and conspiring to harm them is mean and evil, and this is exactly what PJ management team is. Not sure about the current owner, though. He might well be a jerk. In any case, he has got to bring an end to people's suffering as a result of his management's practices, regardless of what it takes.
EX.
I am sure that you will agree that the intention is not to analyze personalities in this thread. But I would say that a "jerk" is not necessarily "mean" and "evil". Denying people's rights and conspiring to harm them is mean and evil, and this is exactly what PJ management team is. Not sure about the current owner, though. He might well be a jerk. In any case, he has got to bring an end to people's suffering as a result of his management's practices, regardless of what it takes.
EX.
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KF
My continued sympathies for the situation as it is re your salaries. BUT, you are all actively supporting the unacceptable behaviours of the Sociopath management team. I cannot for the life of me fathom out why you all continue to accept non payment of salaries and carry on working knowing that salaries will continue to be unpaid and that court judgements are futile. All crews should wait for their next VIP passenger and then prior to start, get up, go down the back and tell them that the company has not paid your salaries for 3 months and then state that the aircraft will not be going anywhere that day with you as operating crew. If you lose your job, so what, you don't have one that is worth keeping. I do understand why you are all clinging on to the hope that you might get paid, but the fact is that you wont. Morale must be sub-surface.
My continued sympathies for the situation as it is re your salaries. BUT, you are all actively supporting the unacceptable behaviours of the Sociopath management team. I cannot for the life of me fathom out why you all continue to accept non payment of salaries and carry on working knowing that salaries will continue to be unpaid and that court judgements are futile. All crews should wait for their next VIP passenger and then prior to start, get up, go down the back and tell them that the company has not paid your salaries for 3 months and then state that the aircraft will not be going anywhere that day with you as operating crew. If you lose your job, so what, you don't have one that is worth keeping. I do understand why you are all clinging on to the hope that you might get paid, but the fact is that you wont. Morale must be sub-surface.
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Better Still..
All crews should wait for their next VIP passenger and then prior to start, get up, go down the back and tell them that the company has not paid your salaries for 3 months and then state that the aircraft will not be going anywhere that day with you as operating crew.
bh.
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Mmmmmm there's interesting. If you refused to operate back from a 'western country', could you arrange a civil law suit to have the aircraft impounded until payment of all outstanding salaries has been achieved, or in particular those subject to a court judgement? Where are you Flying Lawyer? 
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Not This Kind of Violations
could you arrange a civil law suit to have the aircraft impounded until payment of all outstanding salaries has been achieved, or in particular those subject to a court judgement?
Cheers.
bh
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Not So Simple
Going back to the suggestion by Henry09 to just walk off an airplane somewhere, this is certainly discussed every day in our frustration, but it is not so simple - especially if you have a spouse in UAE and children in school there.
The deck is totally stacked in favor of the employer in UAE, which is Yemen masquerading with a more western facade. If you were to pull such a stunt, it must be done when the family is out of the country and you must be willing to go to the airpot and get out with what you can carry before they alert the border police, or if done outside you must never go back, leaving all of your belongings behind, carrying an international scoffllaw notice from the banks and never being able to come back to GCC for a job or even daring land there while working for a future employer.
They can accuse you of anything and prevent you from leaving the country, including by having you incarcerated. They can cancel your visa and force you to leave within 30 days. They can ban you from working for any other employer. Your name could be on an arrest list - imagine you have a diversion some day in the future, land in Dubai and get arrested. Or you have to refuse flights to that part of the world - that will impress your future employers.
Etcetera. We all want to do exactly as you suggest, Henry, but the ramifications must be carefully weighed and the action carefully planned. What we would really prefer is to go to work, have everything proper, do our jobs in the best way we can, and then get paid what was agreed for doing the job.
We are doing our part in the above equation; we just want management to do its part by making things right and paying us. We do not want to flee the UAE like criminals and have our names on arrest notices at the airports in the GCC.
The deck is totally stacked in favor of the employer in UAE, which is Yemen masquerading with a more western facade. If you were to pull such a stunt, it must be done when the family is out of the country and you must be willing to go to the airpot and get out with what you can carry before they alert the border police, or if done outside you must never go back, leaving all of your belongings behind, carrying an international scoffllaw notice from the banks and never being able to come back to GCC for a job or even daring land there while working for a future employer.
They can accuse you of anything and prevent you from leaving the country, including by having you incarcerated. They can cancel your visa and force you to leave within 30 days. They can ban you from working for any other employer. Your name could be on an arrest list - imagine you have a diversion some day in the future, land in Dubai and get arrested. Or you have to refuse flights to that part of the world - that will impress your future employers.
Etcetera. We all want to do exactly as you suggest, Henry, but the ramifications must be carefully weighed and the action carefully planned. What we would really prefer is to go to work, have everything proper, do our jobs in the best way we can, and then get paid what was agreed for doing the job.
We are doing our part in the above equation; we just want management to do its part by making things right and paying us. We do not want to flee the UAE like criminals and have our names on arrest notices at the airports in the GCC.
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KF
I completely understand everything you have said and truly empathise.
Can you help me with my further struggles concerning the company. With all of the 'cash' philosophy, refusing to pay bills, leading to credit refusal from the fuel companies etc, is this down to complete management incompetence or is the business struggling for clients and cash flow? In simple terms, do they earn enough to keep the staff and systems paid for, but just blow it all on management extravagances, or do they not put enough bums on seats?
I completely understand everything you have said and truly empathise.
Can you help me with my further struggles concerning the company. With all of the 'cash' philosophy, refusing to pay bills, leading to credit refusal from the fuel companies etc, is this down to complete management incompetence or is the business struggling for clients and cash flow? In simple terms, do they earn enough to keep the staff and systems paid for, but just blow it all on management extravagances, or do they not put enough bums on seats?
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It's "D: All of the Above"
Thank you, Henry. As a line pilot, I am able to relate to you only what I see, hear and think, but I am not privy to all. I believe that the problem is all of the above: incompetence, mismanagement, management extravagances, thievery and poor management controls. For example, we have heard numerous times that Sales is paid commissions for selling the trip, but nobody seems to be responsible for actually collecting the revenues from the customer; therefore, Sales has incentive to sell but not much interest to actually recover the money. Accounting, cash management and controls are said to be lacking - and quite obviously are, when the staff accuses the management of misuse of funds while management publicly accuses the staff of stealing all the money.
We have had many trips wherein the passenger was forced to pay cash from his pocket for hotel, ground handling or catering fees in order for us to depart, rather than waiting for the head office to somehow resolve the situation. It always seems like there is no cash in the system but, when push comes to shove, both Sales and CFO have safes in their office with stacks of cash. We have received cash in places like Riyadh and Amman from unknown persons in large vehicles stopping us on the street, saying "Are you Captain so-and-so?", placing an envelope with Euros 30,000 and more into our hand, then driving off without even asking for a receipt. And then people wonder why the rumours of money laundering, cash conduit to terrorist groups, etc. go around?
Never any cash for predictable needs, such as operating costs and payroll but, somehow, when an aircraft is arrested somewhere or the flight is unable to continue, wads of cash magically appear. Followed by the CEO claiming that he paid for everything from his own personal funds. Well, where did those come from, in such amounts, in cash?
All I can tell you is that the aircraft seem to be utilized as much as a management shuttle as for clients, that while we have not been paid in three months our CEO has a huge new home, seven new luxury automobiles and, when not flying on company aircraft, the entire management fly first class and stay in the most fancy and expensive hotels wherever they go. This appalling lack of leadership by example is not only demoralising, but also removes any incentive from the employees to care about cost savings, efficiencies, etc.
We just want the company to be run like a business, we want to be proud of our company and our role in its success, and we want to be paid - contrary to the claims of CEO who thinks that we are all Americans, we all steal from the company and we all want to destroy the company. Sadly, the leadership is entirely self-serving, short-sighted, negative, incompetent and counterproductive in the face of good market positioning and hardworking employees who want the company to succeed.
We have had many trips wherein the passenger was forced to pay cash from his pocket for hotel, ground handling or catering fees in order for us to depart, rather than waiting for the head office to somehow resolve the situation. It always seems like there is no cash in the system but, when push comes to shove, both Sales and CFO have safes in their office with stacks of cash. We have received cash in places like Riyadh and Amman from unknown persons in large vehicles stopping us on the street, saying "Are you Captain so-and-so?", placing an envelope with Euros 30,000 and more into our hand, then driving off without even asking for a receipt. And then people wonder why the rumours of money laundering, cash conduit to terrorist groups, etc. go around?
Never any cash for predictable needs, such as operating costs and payroll but, somehow, when an aircraft is arrested somewhere or the flight is unable to continue, wads of cash magically appear. Followed by the CEO claiming that he paid for everything from his own personal funds. Well, where did those come from, in such amounts, in cash?
All I can tell you is that the aircraft seem to be utilized as much as a management shuttle as for clients, that while we have not been paid in three months our CEO has a huge new home, seven new luxury automobiles and, when not flying on company aircraft, the entire management fly first class and stay in the most fancy and expensive hotels wherever they go. This appalling lack of leadership by example is not only demoralising, but also removes any incentive from the employees to care about cost savings, efficiencies, etc.
We just want the company to be run like a business, we want to be proud of our company and our role in its success, and we want to be paid - contrary to the claims of CEO who thinks that we are all Americans, we all steal from the company and we all want to destroy the company. Sadly, the leadership is entirely self-serving, short-sighted, negative, incompetent and counterproductive in the face of good market positioning and hardworking employees who want the company to succeed.
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21 Century Slavery
KF,
Your post ought to appear in the media as an article with a truly deserved title: 21st Century Slavery. With this said, one can not really decide whether to laugh or cry!!
Your post ought to appear in the media as an article with a truly deserved title: 21st Century Slavery. With this said, one can not really decide whether to laugh or cry!!
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Prestige
I had a charter with them in 2009, was great, a guy pulled us over in Riyadh on the main ring road to the airport, Mr Z, who I knew from a previous Saudi job, and gave us 11,000 cash for a charter to Gassem from Riyadh. COvert money drop, kind of interesting. Paid for some catering with that for our aircraft and another Prestige jet in Jeddah, Kept the rest for my own per diem and wages, so they would not screw me over. Got out of there with everything that was supposed to be paid because of this "Cash " deal. So the cash thing was starting way back then.
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Welcome to Arabia
We have received cash in places like Riyadh and Amman from unknown persons in large vehicles stopping us on the street, saying "Are you Captain so-and-so?", placing an envelope with Euros 30,000 and more into our hand, then driving off without even asking for a receipt. And then people wonder why the rumours of money laundering, cash conduit to terrorist groups, etc. go around?
Welcome to Arabia guys
.bh
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Why We Do It
In response to BeCareful's question in Post #344, above, may I direct you to my earlier Post #340, the last one on the previous page, which I believe should answer your question about why we continue to work under the circumstance that we have not been paid in three months.
In addition to the explanation given in the earlier post, I would add the hope that we will get paid paid any day now and that this experience will not be repeated, our idealism that things will turn around, and our professionalism that we will not respond to incompetent and venomous management by becoming unprofessional and irresponsible employees. Anybody who obtains another job gives proper notice and does the best job he/she can until the last day; we do not wish to not harm a trusting customer by no-showing or walking off his flight.
The problem with the above is the question of how to obtain another job when you don't have much contiguous time off to go anywhere distant to interview and you know that your current employer will do everything to sabotage and block your employment anywhere in UAE or GCC, including placing false charges against you with the authorities and canceling your visa with prejudice.
Our best hope is to work properly and hope that Chairman Hamed Bin Hamed wakes up and smells the coffee, starts paying his employees who are working loyally for him while his management is sabotaging the company and stealing from it.
In addition to the explanation given in the earlier post, I would add the hope that we will get paid paid any day now and that this experience will not be repeated, our idealism that things will turn around, and our professionalism that we will not respond to incompetent and venomous management by becoming unprofessional and irresponsible employees. Anybody who obtains another job gives proper notice and does the best job he/she can until the last day; we do not wish to not harm a trusting customer by no-showing or walking off his flight.
The problem with the above is the question of how to obtain another job when you don't have much contiguous time off to go anywhere distant to interview and you know that your current employer will do everything to sabotage and block your employment anywhere in UAE or GCC, including placing false charges against you with the authorities and canceling your visa with prejudice.
Our best hope is to work properly and hope that Chairman Hamed Bin Hamed wakes up and smells the coffee, starts paying his employees who are working loyally for him while his management is sabotaging the company and stealing from it.
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the hope that we will get paid paid any day now and that this experience will not be repeated, our idealism that things will turn around, and our professionalism that we will not respond to incompetent and venomous management by becoming unprofessional and irresponsible employees.
your current employer will do everything to sabotage and block your employment anywhere in UAE or GCC, including placing false charges against you with the authorities and canceling your visa with prejudice.
Our best hope is to work properly and hope that Chairman Hamed Bin Hamed wakes up and smells the coffee, starts paying his employees who are working loyally for him while his management is sabotaging the company and stealing from it.
Conclusion: I am afraid that your and other innocent employees' best hopes are just dreams. Do not count too much on them.
Best of luck.
bh
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I don't buy it
KF, I understand your fears, but let's take it from the top....
You seem to feel that your only recourse is pulling a runner... I disagree.
If you read the labour law, you will see that you are actually entitled to leave without notice if they haven't paid you in 3 months, and with no penalties... furthermore, they can't ban you for this either...
You see, this is how low rent employers treat third world illiterate construction workers and they're betting on the fact that they can't read or don't have the time to read... This miserable company is taking the same approach with you... except that you're not illiterate... and in addition to venting here.... take action against them...
Take time to consult an attorney and find out what your rights are and be sure to document EVERYTHING....
Trust me... it's not as difficult to leave that dirtbag outfit as they claim it is... and even more importantly... don't sacrifice your professional integrity for these people... remember, professionals get paid for their work... you are doing the work and not getting paid....
Time to wise up.... why should they ever pay you if you keep coming back and working for free?
You seem to feel that your only recourse is pulling a runner... I disagree.
If you read the labour law, you will see that you are actually entitled to leave without notice if they haven't paid you in 3 months, and with no penalties... furthermore, they can't ban you for this either...
You see, this is how low rent employers treat third world illiterate construction workers and they're betting on the fact that they can't read or don't have the time to read... This miserable company is taking the same approach with you... except that you're not illiterate... and in addition to venting here.... take action against them...
Take time to consult an attorney and find out what your rights are and be sure to document EVERYTHING....
Trust me... it's not as difficult to leave that dirtbag outfit as they claim it is... and even more importantly... don't sacrifice your professional integrity for these people... remember, professionals get paid for their work... you are doing the work and not getting paid....
Time to wise up.... why should they ever pay you if you keep coming back and working for free?
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Thank You
Dear Be Careful,
Thank you for the advice, but invoking the rule of law and recourse to the Courts does not appear to work in this case.
Former employees who have done so have spent money on lawyers, have obtained judgments from the Court and still not collected in more than a year's time, as reported in this thread, formerly "Prestige Jet Chairman Hamed Bin Hamed Tops List of Aviation Deadbeats".
Existing employees who have availed themselves of their rights in the Labour Ministry and/or the Courts have been persecuted and charged with criminal offenses and forced to leave or to remain outside the country in order to avoid jail - as reported in this thread, formerly under the heading "Prestige Jet: Do Your Job, Go to Jail". Despite these alleged legal protections, which may exist on paper but are overriden by "wasta" in UAE, employees are successfully kept out of the local and regional labour market.
The company gets away with lots of things, despite the legal protections you cite, and also with respect to GCAA regulations. So it is not so simple.
In the end, it is a very personal decision how to proceed when one finds oneself in such a situation, influenced by many factors, discussed in this thread under the former heading "Prestige Jet - Exodus Begins", including the fact that being in a financial bind and having one's family present impinge upon one's options and nimble flexibility. It is a roller coaster ride which is terribly unpleasant and it is difficult to decide when to jump. Most employees do hope that the company will make good, rather than having to endure further hardship, expenses and dislocation.
While I appreciate and hope that your advice is well-intentioned, it is easy to toss in potshots from far away, calling people like me unprofessional and illiterate and attempting to incite us to behave in certain manner when it is our lives, careers and family which are at stake. If it were as easy as you describe, we all would have done it by now. But it is not; this is not Australia, European Union, Canada or USA where one can count upon the rule of law and legal protections for the labour force and the individual.
Certainly, the best advice to others reading PPRuNe is to never become involved in such a situation and to stay away from companies such as Prestige Jet. But for those of us already caught up in this nightmare, things are not as simple as stating "There are laws." At least, not here.
In the meantime, one thing we can do is to keep this thread active and alive on Page One of PPRuNe, in the hope that it has a chilling effect upon potential recruits and therefore exerts enough pressure upon the company to change its behaviour. We know that it does have its effect, as the occasional outbursts by management attest. Everybody's assistance with this is greatly appreciated - thank you.
Thank you for the advice, but invoking the rule of law and recourse to the Courts does not appear to work in this case.
Former employees who have done so have spent money on lawyers, have obtained judgments from the Court and still not collected in more than a year's time, as reported in this thread, formerly "Prestige Jet Chairman Hamed Bin Hamed Tops List of Aviation Deadbeats".
Existing employees who have availed themselves of their rights in the Labour Ministry and/or the Courts have been persecuted and charged with criminal offenses and forced to leave or to remain outside the country in order to avoid jail - as reported in this thread, formerly under the heading "Prestige Jet: Do Your Job, Go to Jail". Despite these alleged legal protections, which may exist on paper but are overriden by "wasta" in UAE, employees are successfully kept out of the local and regional labour market.
The company gets away with lots of things, despite the legal protections you cite, and also with respect to GCAA regulations. So it is not so simple.
In the end, it is a very personal decision how to proceed when one finds oneself in such a situation, influenced by many factors, discussed in this thread under the former heading "Prestige Jet - Exodus Begins", including the fact that being in a financial bind and having one's family present impinge upon one's options and nimble flexibility. It is a roller coaster ride which is terribly unpleasant and it is difficult to decide when to jump. Most employees do hope that the company will make good, rather than having to endure further hardship, expenses and dislocation.
While I appreciate and hope that your advice is well-intentioned, it is easy to toss in potshots from far away, calling people like me unprofessional and illiterate and attempting to incite us to behave in certain manner when it is our lives, careers and family which are at stake. If it were as easy as you describe, we all would have done it by now. But it is not; this is not Australia, European Union, Canada or USA where one can count upon the rule of law and legal protections for the labour force and the individual.
Certainly, the best advice to others reading PPRuNe is to never become involved in such a situation and to stay away from companies such as Prestige Jet. But for those of us already caught up in this nightmare, things are not as simple as stating "There are laws." At least, not here.
In the meantime, one thing we can do is to keep this thread active and alive on Page One of PPRuNe, in the hope that it has a chilling effect upon potential recruits and therefore exerts enough pressure upon the company to change its behaviour. We know that it does have its effect, as the occasional outbursts by management attest. Everybody's assistance with this is greatly appreciated - thank you.
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KF, I understand where you're coming from... and you're right... it is a very personal decision...
I know several pilots who flipped the bird to PJ and left them in the dust.... and all of them are working in the UAE and the region...
I'm not questioning your professionalism... I am simply telling you not to give in to the threats of a few idiots...
I know several pilots who flipped the bird to PJ and left them in the dust.... and all of them are working in the UAE and the region...
I'm not questioning your professionalism... I am simply telling you not to give in to the threats of a few idiots...
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The Real Problem
not to give in to the threats of a few idiots
The judicial system in the ME is just another corrupt system, as I am sure you will agree if you have lived there long enough for a personal experience to be built. It is like the law enforcement, and other authoritative entities. This is the real problem as I see it. I agree that PJ is owned and run by a bunch of idiots. For them to get away with so many publicly known violations (plus hidden plans, agendas and practices) is the real problem. They have been let loose to harm people and damage their future at will for a long time. It is a state of lawlessness that is prevailing in this part of the world. I sympathize with all the good people stranded there.
bh