Aussie Businessmen set to sue Etihad
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The Local culture
Must agree with the majority of your posts and add that the problems with the local culture are manifold.
Firstly, thier children are segregated from the Intenational culture on day1, they are taught that Sheikh Zayed was the best leader the world has had, Sheikh Mohammed is a sun of a gun of a leader and a poet, before that there was nothing, later you could be something, but this is what you need to do: Follow the leader and not the foreigner.
Second: According to Mr. AL Tayer, minister of labour and such, Locals do not need training in administration because they are meant to take up management positions.....According to him, they do not need to work shift times either. We should really contact Harvard business school, Yale, Duke and all, and tell them that their curriculum is no longer required because Mr. Al Tayer has just found the solution to the world's administrative problems.
Third: If you want me to respect your daughter/wife/sister, then respect mine, and don't tailgate them; because if if I did that, you would have me sent to jail without going through go and giving you or your sister for that matter my 2pence worth.
Fourth: If you want tourism in order to diversify your market economy, then comply with what that market requires, you cannot expect someone to come and buy property here when you promise them they can get everything they need in terms of modern lifestyle and then impose on them Sharia law. Tourism is the biggest plague the world has known, it has transformed countries into hell holes so don't expect to come out of your tourism experience as if nothing had changed. From the paragliding to the Cyclone and york hotel (That funnily belong to local sheikhs) everything will change, including your daughter one day going out with a foreigner who happens to be better educated and treats her better than her cousin, who thinks his wasta can get him shisha for free.
And you won't have to worry about inbreading.......
Firstly, thier children are segregated from the Intenational culture on day1, they are taught that Sheikh Zayed was the best leader the world has had, Sheikh Mohammed is a sun of a gun of a leader and a poet, before that there was nothing, later you could be something, but this is what you need to do: Follow the leader and not the foreigner.
Second: According to Mr. AL Tayer, minister of labour and such, Locals do not need training in administration because they are meant to take up management positions.....According to him, they do not need to work shift times either. We should really contact Harvard business school, Yale, Duke and all, and tell them that their curriculum is no longer required because Mr. Al Tayer has just found the solution to the world's administrative problems.
Third: If you want me to respect your daughter/wife/sister, then respect mine, and don't tailgate them; because if if I did that, you would have me sent to jail without going through go and giving you or your sister for that matter my 2pence worth.
Fourth: If you want tourism in order to diversify your market economy, then comply with what that market requires, you cannot expect someone to come and buy property here when you promise them they can get everything they need in terms of modern lifestyle and then impose on them Sharia law. Tourism is the biggest plague the world has known, it has transformed countries into hell holes so don't expect to come out of your tourism experience as if nothing had changed. From the paragliding to the Cyclone and york hotel (That funnily belong to local sheikhs) everything will change, including your daughter one day going out with a foreigner who happens to be better educated and treats her better than her cousin, who thinks his wasta can get him shisha for free.
And you won't have to worry about inbreading.......
Dave the Snail................
Sorry, but the 'problem' isn't confined to the Middle East I'm afraid.
See some PPRuNe posts on the air rage 'phenomenon' that were posted in 2001 at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1904
The classic outcome (result?) of the problem has to be infamous case of Gerald Finneran who took a crap on the drink cart in first class, then proceeded to clean himself-up (literally) with serviettes in front of the amazed onlookers. Finneran got 'rewarded' for his rather bizarre behaviour with a US$30K fine for his little 'indiscretion' by the way.
Fine, first class with all its supposed trimmings are probably an absolute nightmare for FAs who have to work in that environment with people who think it's their right to behave exactly as they want, when they want, and how they want (but wouldn't ever dream of acting so in their own homes in front of their families), but the simple answer really is to limit the amount of booze that these clowns seem to think they need during the flight.........and if they don't like the conditions applied by any airline in this respect, then stiff sh1t.............let 'em vote with their feet and choose another that's silly enought to let it happen!
At the end of the day I think this incident will serve as a message to most westerners to think long and hard about the way they act in and around the Middle East.
See some PPRuNe posts on the air rage 'phenomenon' that were posted in 2001 at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1904
The classic outcome (result?) of the problem has to be infamous case of Gerald Finneran who took a crap on the drink cart in first class, then proceeded to clean himself-up (literally) with serviettes in front of the amazed onlookers. Finneran got 'rewarded' for his rather bizarre behaviour with a US$30K fine for his little 'indiscretion' by the way.
Fine, first class with all its supposed trimmings are probably an absolute nightmare for FAs who have to work in that environment with people who think it's their right to behave exactly as they want, when they want, and how they want (but wouldn't ever dream of acting so in their own homes in front of their families), but the simple answer really is to limit the amount of booze that these clowns seem to think they need during the flight.........and if they don't like the conditions applied by any airline in this respect, then stiff sh1t.............let 'em vote with their feet and choose another that's silly enought to let it happen!
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Might as well close up the Marketing department and stop developping products, and while we are at it, hire policemen to man the cabin...
Sorry mate Stiff **** or not that is not solving the problem.
Cheers
Sorry mate Stiff **** or not that is not solving the problem.
Cheers
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As impartial as I can be to the situation, I can say with authority after spending the last couple of days here in godzone, watching the entire HUGE media blowup, talking to friends etc: that EY has done themselves and the UAE a lot of damage with the Australian people!
I agree with Ennui, the colatteral damage from this, regardless of what is right or wrong, will be a PR nightmare for EY. Act in haste,repent in liesure. The silent majority of Australians talk with their actions, rather than their comments. Is EY paying it's senior management staff enough to circumvent this sort of awkward plublicity?
I agree with Ennui, the colatteral damage from this, regardless of what is right or wrong, will be a PR nightmare for EY. Act in haste,repent in liesure. The silent majority of Australians talk with their actions, rather than their comments. Is EY paying it's senior management staff enough to circumvent this sort of awkward plublicity?
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So let the Aus silent majority do their thing and realize that if you break the law on an airplane, you might not have a happy ending...if they behaved this way on any US carrier the same result would be forthcoming...anybody here on this forum who tries to minimize their behaviour by slagging off local customs, or the nationality of the crew, then I can only hope one of your fellow passengers behaves this way on your flight someday and see how you feel when you and your family are exposed to such misbehaviour...good day and good luck
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Ironbutt you are still not getting the point mate, EY should have prosecuted then with evidence which it happens they did not have....
The result is bad publicity and it all stems from not the actions of the passengers that every airline should prepare itself for but EY didn't.
With any other major airline the crew work to prevent these situations from arising in this case I fear they made it worse.
The result is bad publicity and it all stems from not the actions of the passengers that every airline should prepare itself for but EY didn't.
With any other major airline the crew work to prevent these situations from arising in this case I fear they made it worse.
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The crew call the police with a disturbance the POLICE sort it out...wasnt aware EY or any other airline had the authority to prosecute... that comes as an unhappy suprise, but in any event there MUST have been some rational reason these pax were reported by the crew..in any event the comments about the crews nationality and possible personal behavioural tendencies have nothing to do with it anyway so those remarks are unwarranted and a bit un called for right??? If the nationalities of the crew and pax in this incident were reversed, I dont think all the criticisms on this thread would be posted do you??? "Nuff said gdday matey
Actually the flight deck crew was western and the passengers in question were behaving outside of any acceptable norm. They were warned by the captain who they disregarded so the authorities were called to meet the aircraft on arrival. No different to any unrully pax incident into JFK or LHR.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear
evokes the response:
and
ummm.............exactly what part of risk management DON'T you understand Mustapha Rex? Simply, availability of unlimited booze = likelihood of passengers getting pissed (likely) = bad passenger behaviour consequences (moderate). So, using classic risk management logic, you have HIGH RISK of passenger rage.
Thus...............and pardon me if I'm wrong.............isn't that EXACTLY the [likely] 'actions of passengers' that an airline SHOULD prepare itself for??????
Ironbutt's right.................
And so the SIMPLE solution for airline marketing departments to solve this potential problem is?????????????
the simple answer really is to limit the amount of booze that these clowns seem to think they need during the flight.........and if they don't like the conditions applied by any airline in this respect, then stiff sh1t
Might as well close up the Marketing department and stop developping [sic] products, and while we are at it, hire policemen to man the cabin...
Sorry mate Stiff **** or not that is not solving the problem.
Sorry mate Stiff **** or not that is not solving the problem.
The result is bad publicity and it all stems from not the actions of the passengers that every airline should prepare itself for but EY didn't.
Thus...............and pardon me if I'm wrong.............isn't that EXACTLY the [likely] 'actions of passengers' that an airline SHOULD prepare itself for??????
Ironbutt's right.................
I can only hope [when] one of your fellow passengers behaves this way on your flight someday and see how you feel when you and your family are exposed to such misbehaviour
.........limit the amount of booze that these clowns seem to think they need during the flight
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dont mix the topics/feeling, paxs deserve to be in jail!
These paxs were behaving badly (illegally perhaps), think about this poor cabin crew that these guys touched, think she could be your mother, little sister, wife or girlfriend, this can not happen. PERIOD.
Picture yourself travelling as a pax in first with you wife and kids, do you think is correct to tolerate a drunk pax near you walking almost naked in a plane? being drunk?
Cabin crew serve alcohol, which is totally ok. They do not know (sometimes they can realize by smelling or just watching the pax) if this pax is already drunk, tired or under influence of medicals/illegal drugs, sometimes they realize that when is a bit late, but it is always the paxs responsability and NEVER the Airline's one.
The moment this guy touched the cabin crew, this guy got a nonstop ticket to jail (and a kick in his balls)
Protect the poor crew and airline.
F@ck this paxs, keep them in jail for what they did
xxx
EY
Picture yourself travelling as a pax in first with you wife and kids, do you think is correct to tolerate a drunk pax near you walking almost naked in a plane? being drunk?
Cabin crew serve alcohol, which is totally ok. They do not know (sometimes they can realize by smelling or just watching the pax) if this pax is already drunk, tired or under influence of medicals/illegal drugs, sometimes they realize that when is a bit late, but it is always the paxs responsability and NEVER the Airline's one.
The moment this guy touched the cabin crew, this guy got a nonstop ticket to jail (and a kick in his balls)
Protect the poor crew and airline.
F@ck this paxs, keep them in jail for what they did
xxx
EY
Ho Hum...still missing the point, seems we are going around in circles here 
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Ironbutt, EY Girly and the rest just can't get their heads around the point of this thread can they.
WE ARE NOT DEFENDING THESE CLOWNS
OUR POINT IS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGEDFOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR NOT FOR DRINKING WITHOUT A LICENSE.
As much as you guys say don't worry, EY and the Abu Dhabi police will only charge you for drinking without a license if you misbehave, I will worry and all people should worry. My mother or father flying out here on EY may complain to someone about their warm champagne or bad seat, and that person may get upset and vindictive, and decide that since my parents had a drink or two without a license, they can cause them trouble on arrival at Abu Dhabi. The precedent has been set and that is a real worry for anyone contemplating flying through AUH with EY.
AGAIN, THE BEHAVIOUR OF THESE GUYS IS NOT THE POINT, THE POINT IS THE CHARGING OF THEM FOR DRINKING ALCOHOL.
WE ARE NOT DEFENDING THESE CLOWNS
OUR POINT IS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGEDFOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR NOT FOR DRINKING WITHOUT A LICENSE.
As much as you guys say don't worry, EY and the Abu Dhabi police will only charge you for drinking without a license if you misbehave, I will worry and all people should worry. My mother or father flying out here on EY may complain to someone about their warm champagne or bad seat, and that person may get upset and vindictive, and decide that since my parents had a drink or two without a license, they can cause them trouble on arrival at Abu Dhabi. The precedent has been set and that is a real worry for anyone contemplating flying through AUH with EY.
AGAIN, THE BEHAVIOUR OF THESE GUYS IS NOT THE POINT, THE POINT IS THE CHARGING OF THEM FOR DRINKING ALCOHOL.
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ANSA et al; I think the problem you are having here is cultural. I believe some of the respondents DO NOT understand your point (and I don't know how much more clearly you could state it other than above) because they are from the same culture as the decision making process involved here.
If the flight had've been inbound to Australia when this problem arose, the charges on arrival would've been "conduct endangering an aircraft" or "failure to comply with instruction of the crew" or a similarly purposed law. In the UAE, law-making is a very slow-moving animal. I doubt they would've updated the criminal code {and I stand to be corrected on this} to have such 'modern', particular, crimes. Hence, the police just do what they have been doing for a loooooong time, and slap any old charge on that results in a satisfactory result. They are not used to having such things examined, criticised or publicised. Just as many responding here cannot see the problem- the "just lock them up" mentality.
Some cultures don't question authority. IMHO, that's what this issue is about.
If the flight had've been inbound to Australia when this problem arose, the charges on arrival would've been "conduct endangering an aircraft" or "failure to comply with instruction of the crew" or a similarly purposed law. In the UAE, law-making is a very slow-moving animal. I doubt they would've updated the criminal code {and I stand to be corrected on this} to have such 'modern', particular, crimes. Hence, the police just do what they have been doing for a loooooong time, and slap any old charge on that results in a satisfactory result. They are not used to having such things examined, criticised or publicised. Just as many responding here cannot see the problem- the "just lock them up" mentality.
Some cultures don't question authority. IMHO, that's what this issue is about.
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There would definitely be a cultural aspect to this particular situation. However, the act of charging a person with "what can we get him on" as opposed to selecting the charge appropriate to the behaviour encountered is perhaps a psychological issue more than an ethnographic issue in that it also occurs in Western/European cultures.
A long time ago I observed an Australian soldier charged with being Drunk-on-Duty, Absent-from-Duty and Absent-without-Leave.
What happened to cause this soldier to be charged? The morning after a night of approved and supervised consumption of alcohol within the barracks, said gentleman, in reply to an instruction from a gentleman-who-holds-Her Majesty's Commission, proceeded to express his displeasure at the prospect of complying with such an instruction, accompanied by his personal opinion of said gentleman-who-holds-Her Majesty's Commission. He then walked out of the barracks.
Two gentlemen-who-hold-a-warrant for Her Majesty's Commission (very experienced soldiers of many years service) then proceeded to pull out the law manuals and find the most severe charge that they believed they could get him convicted on.
Five minutes into the trial the charge of being Drunk-on-Duty was thrown out. Why, because he wasn't drunk.
Insubordination... perhaps, but not Drunk-on-Duty. It was the wrong charge.
A long time ago I observed an Australian soldier charged with being Drunk-on-Duty, Absent-from-Duty and Absent-without-Leave.
What happened to cause this soldier to be charged? The morning after a night of approved and supervised consumption of alcohol within the barracks, said gentleman, in reply to an instruction from a gentleman-who-holds-Her Majesty's Commission, proceeded to express his displeasure at the prospect of complying with such an instruction, accompanied by his personal opinion of said gentleman-who-holds-Her Majesty's Commission. He then walked out of the barracks.
Two gentlemen-who-hold-a-warrant for Her Majesty's Commission (very experienced soldiers of many years service) then proceeded to pull out the law manuals and find the most severe charge that they believed they could get him convicted on.
Five minutes into the trial the charge of being Drunk-on-Duty was thrown out. Why, because he wasn't drunk.
Insubordination... perhaps, but not Drunk-on-Duty. It was the wrong charge.
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got it now
ahhh... the point is drinking without permit is illegal and this guy complained that they were offered drinks by the airline...
Like if you fly with American Airline and they offer you Cocaine and when you land in NY you are arrested for comsumtion?!.
Ooops what a system's failure we have here...!
It must be hard to compatibilise the two systems... (western type of service with middle east laws).
Solution: Do not offer alcoholic drinks inbound to Middle East (better for us)...
insteresting...
Like if you fly with American Airline and they offer you Cocaine and when you land in NY you are arrested for comsumtion?!.
Ooops what a system's failure we have here...!
It must be hard to compatibilise the two systems... (western type of service with middle east laws).
Solution: Do not offer alcoholic drinks inbound to Middle East (better for us)...
insteresting...
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Are yes, but what they should have used was "conduct unbecoming of a soldier of the armed forces.. blah blah"
I asked the question before but no answer yet as to the existance in UAE law of penalties for causing a disturbance on a UAE registered flight. It is not against the law to smoke on EK/EY flights...it is against company policy only. Is this the case for disobeying a crew command, threatening safety of crew/pax for which you could use restraints. I previously thought there was a law covering this but recent events have cast a doubt in my mind. Any one know for sure?
EY girl I am pretty sure, but I have been wrong before but I think cocaine is illegal in the US therefor not a good comparison. As I said, I might be wrong, if so sorry....
I asked the question before but no answer yet as to the existance in UAE law of penalties for causing a disturbance on a UAE registered flight. It is not against the law to smoke on EK/EY flights...it is against company policy only. Is this the case for disobeying a crew command, threatening safety of crew/pax for which you could use restraints. I previously thought there was a law covering this but recent events have cast a doubt in my mind. Any one know for sure?
EY girl I am pretty sure, but I have been wrong before but I think cocaine is illegal in the US therefor not a good comparison. As I said, I might be wrong, if so sorry....
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EY Girl
Your reasoning is exactly what EY is up against, prioritising concern on the basis of your inability to act or take action, which why this incident happened in the first place.
Please limit yourself to follow the procedures that you've been given, as small as they are, you will be advised of your next training course on how to handle passengers and make cocktails for them.
In the meantime, do youself and your employer a favour, keep your comments to yourself.
Thank you
MR
Your reasoning is exactly what EY is up against, prioritising concern on the basis of your inability to act or take action, which why this incident happened in the first place.
Please limit yourself to follow the procedures that you've been given, as small as they are, you will be advised of your next training course on how to handle passengers and make cocktails for them.
In the meantime, do youself and your employer a favour, keep your comments to yourself.
Thank you
MR
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Not A good example
EYGirl,
"Protect the poor crew and airline".
F@ck this paxs, keep them in jail for what they did
"Like if you fly with American Airline and they offer you Cocaine and when you land in NY you are arrested for comsumtion?!."
EY Girl, If you are the true reflection of EY Girls then I rest my case.
Safe and happy flying to all
"Protect the poor crew and airline".
F@ck this paxs, keep them in jail for what they did
"Like if you fly with American Airline and they offer you Cocaine and when you land in NY you are arrested for comsumtion?!."
EY Girl, If you are the true reflection of EY Girls then I rest my case.
Safe and happy flying to all
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How many people have been stopped in dubai for a random drug test when arriving ? Its not a common occurance.
The laws are there, if your not a drunk asshole, and don't make a scene there is no problem. If you are however they will throw the book at you with everything they've got.
This guy obviously was doing something to get all this attention, except this time he got what he deserved.
The laws are there, if your not a drunk asshole, and don't make a scene there is no problem. If you are however they will throw the book at you with everything they've got.
This guy obviously was doing something to get all this attention, except this time he got what he deserved.