Life after EK
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
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Lifes a Bit## and then......
The topic of DECs has been the "petrol for many a bonfire" it gets really hot really quickly!
It is , has been and will always be really pi## poor to be on the receiveing end of the issue but in reality there is nothing that can be done to stop management making unpleasant policy for some.
There is only one way to mitigate the bad feeling, to give all who feel up to the job a shot at the course.
In an ideal world it would be possible, no budget constraints , lack of sim time etc etc but there is no such thing as an ideal world.
In one operator some years ago the option was there for SFOs who had the requirements / hours , but felt to be not ready by the trainers, to insist on getting a shot at command...... the rider was if they failed they would not be given another go........ever. Harsh but fair or maybe not?
I my 20 yrs in the lhs a very general rule has grown by itself( and don't shoot the messenger boys!) there are guys who scream blue murder when they get the hours "Where is MY command?!" and guys who get on do the job of being a really pro FO and gently ask to be concidered when posts become available.
Who would you give the job to?
keep it safe.
BBO
It is , has been and will always be really pi## poor to be on the receiveing end of the issue but in reality there is nothing that can be done to stop management making unpleasant policy for some.
There is only one way to mitigate the bad feeling, to give all who feel up to the job a shot at the course.
In an ideal world it would be possible, no budget constraints , lack of sim time etc etc but there is no such thing as an ideal world.
In one operator some years ago the option was there for SFOs who had the requirements / hours , but felt to be not ready by the trainers, to insist on getting a shot at command...... the rider was if they failed they would not be given another go........ever. Harsh but fair or maybe not?
I my 20 yrs in the lhs a very general rule has grown by itself( and don't shoot the messenger boys!) there are guys who scream blue murder when they get the hours "Where is MY command?!" and guys who get on do the job of being a really pro FO and gently ask to be concidered when posts become available.
Who would you give the job to?
keep it safe.
BBO
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here and there but mostly lgw
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EXekpilot.
A very good post.
I am amazed that as a heavy jet captain you would be so nieve as to believe a bunch of ex pat managers,and take an f/o job, but thats your call.
Just one question.
Are you joiining your new company as a senior training staff F/O or Capt.? If the latter then its very convenient that you are not blocking an F/o and both your conscience and hypocrisy are saved.However:
I know of an operator looking for dec tre/i. They are most definately taking the jobs of current staff. Not their commands , but their slots as tre.They are 6 to 10 yrs senior to any TRE DEC and very competant. You see its cheaper,and they are using an agency to disguise the advert. So as eloquent as your post began it seems to descend into hypocrisy, unintentionally or otherwise. Not that I blame you because if your story is true you must have been pretty poissed off for years. Just putting it in perspective, and adding another dimension to the Dubai flat earth mentality.
A very good post.
I am amazed that as a heavy jet captain you would be so nieve as to believe a bunch of ex pat managers,and take an f/o job, but thats your call.
Just one question.
Are you joiining your new company as a senior training staff F/O or Capt.? If the latter then its very convenient that you are not blocking an F/o and both your conscience and hypocrisy are saved.However:
I know of an operator looking for dec tre/i. They are most definately taking the jobs of current staff. Not their commands , but their slots as tre.They are 6 to 10 yrs senior to any TRE DEC and very competant. You see its cheaper,and they are using an agency to disguise the advert. So as eloquent as your post began it seems to descend into hypocrisy, unintentionally or otherwise. Not that I blame you because if your story is true you must have been pretty poissed off for years. Just putting it in perspective, and adding another dimension to the Dubai flat earth mentality.
Last edited by Farty Flaps; 2nd Oct 2006 at 10:22. Reason: spelling......thanks mutley, how did i get this far without you
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dubai
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Why are you holding a grudge towards the DEC. They don't hire them self.I you have a gripe with the company take them on. Don't vent your anger towards people who came here like your selves to try and create a better life for themselves and there families.
And no, I'm not a DEC but and F/O. Yes you will say wait until it happens to you! Yes that might be, but it does not make it the Dec's fault. Some of them are highly qualified and yes some or most struggle. But then again so will you if information is with held from you and then when your do you test you fail.
To me that's childish, immature and unprofessional
Those of you who are by-past, must ask yourself, is it because of me or is it because of the policies implemented by the company.
If its is the company then it is simple, move on.
For it will never change.
But to call the Dec's selfish and thieves, is a bit much
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Seems to me that exekpilot is just stating facts.
He's making no claim to a moral high ground.
Have DECs devalued EK as a career employer?
Do the 'proper' airlines employ DECs?
Will the airline as a whole suffer in the long term?
Yes, no and probably.
He's making no claim to a moral high ground.
Have DECs devalued EK as a career employer?
Do the 'proper' airlines employ DECs?
Will the airline as a whole suffer in the long term?
Yes, no and probably.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: dubai
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Exekpilot,
That is one of the best posts i've read in a long time. Sums things up rather nicely.
Millerscourt..... he's joining an organization that requires senior training staff.... which if I am correct, means he is not a DEC.
Best of luck in your new position.
That is one of the best posts i've read in a long time. Sums things up rather nicely.
Millerscourt..... he's joining an organization that requires senior training staff.... which if I am correct, means he is not a DEC.
Best of luck in your new position.
Last edited by mensaboy; 2nd Oct 2006 at 13:03.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dubai
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Hear! hear! for ex ekpilot!
For Mutley: very good Mut, you stopt the copy and paste!
Now just get rid of that pedantic schoolteachers mentality and you be just fine! Must be in the genes in your part of the world.
For Mutley: very good Mut, you stopt the copy and paste!
Now just get rid of that pedantic schoolteachers mentality and you be just fine! Must be in the genes in your part of the world.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
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Emirates
Payscale, this is not a matter of self esteem.. I expressed how I felt after my experience . By the way I am not the only one who feels this way.. Many pilots who are there feel that there is some kind of a british Mafia in the gulf region.. Same goes with Saudia Arabia where people said it over and over it is the American mafia runing the flt depts.
So going back to my issue.. Let talk statistics.. How many British , Australians, South Africans and people from New Zeeland are Flight deck officers and get some numbers regarding Americans & Canadians.
If someone has the numbers and is willing to share them with us it will be nice...
So going back to my issue.. Let talk statistics.. How many British , Australians, South Africans and people from New Zeeland are Flight deck officers and get some numbers regarding Americans & Canadians.
If someone has the numbers and is willing to share them with us it will be nice...
Join Date: Feb 2000
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UAX,
You are right there are more Brits, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and Yarpies than say Americans. Why is that, it must be the blatant discriminatory recruitment practices of EK!!
Alternatively it could be because a lot of them came long ago due to circumstances. A bunch of Aussies came after the dispute in the late 80s when they were all fired. Even more of them came when Ansett went down the tubes in 2002. The Brits have come in dribs and drabs over the years, the big in-flux of Canuks was when C3 went down and then with Air Canada's problems.
Now it seems that a few yanks want to come. In the past, the US market wouldn't have lowered themselves to the level of going to the sandpit for anything. ALPA was keeping the salaries nice and high and trying to get the golden goose to lay its last egg. So its no use bleating that the jobs have gone in the past to certain nationalities, we ate the crumbs from your table and you laughed in our faces, now the boot is on the other foot.
However, I'll put your mind at rest, we have over 70 nationalities and recent hires have come from Colombia, Mexico, The Carribean, Brazil and Ethiopia in increasing numbers. The Canuks are now the 2nd largest nationality here (oops there goes a plank of your argument) and most of the recent hires have come from North and South America.
So playing the nationality/race card starts to look like you are making excuses for your own performance at interview.
The Stats in Early 2005 were (thanks to Alphaprot):
British 205
Australian 147
Canadian 137
UAE 79
NZ 72
S. African 68
Swedish 39
German 36
Swiss 36
Belgian 26
American 25
Malaysian 25
Irish 23
Indian 20
Italian 15
Norwegian 15
Mexican 14
Zimbabwean 12
Pakistani 11
Austrian 10
Greek 10
Danish 9
Dutch 9
Bahraini 8
Maltese 8
Yugoslav 7
Egyptian 6
Jamaican 6
French 5
Kenyan 5
Omani 5
Algerian 4
PNG 4
Croatian 3
Jordanian 3
Trinidadian 3
Brazilian 2
Czech 2
Finn 2
Hungarian 2
Iranian 2
Portuguese 2
Slovene 2
SriLankan 2
Turkish 2
Bahamian 1
Bulgarian 1
Chilean 1
Colombian 1
Ecuadorean 1
Ethiopian 1
Filipino 1
Grenadian 1
Luxembourger 1
Nepalese 1
Qatari 1
Seychellois1
Slovakian 1
Tongan 1
Ghost
You are right there are more Brits, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and Yarpies than say Americans. Why is that, it must be the blatant discriminatory recruitment practices of EK!!
Alternatively it could be because a lot of them came long ago due to circumstances. A bunch of Aussies came after the dispute in the late 80s when they were all fired. Even more of them came when Ansett went down the tubes in 2002. The Brits have come in dribs and drabs over the years, the big in-flux of Canuks was when C3 went down and then with Air Canada's problems.
Now it seems that a few yanks want to come. In the past, the US market wouldn't have lowered themselves to the level of going to the sandpit for anything. ALPA was keeping the salaries nice and high and trying to get the golden goose to lay its last egg. So its no use bleating that the jobs have gone in the past to certain nationalities, we ate the crumbs from your table and you laughed in our faces, now the boot is on the other foot.
However, I'll put your mind at rest, we have over 70 nationalities and recent hires have come from Colombia, Mexico, The Carribean, Brazil and Ethiopia in increasing numbers. The Canuks are now the 2nd largest nationality here (oops there goes a plank of your argument) and most of the recent hires have come from North and South America.
So playing the nationality/race card starts to look like you are making excuses for your own performance at interview.
The Stats in Early 2005 were (thanks to Alphaprot):
British 205
Australian 147
Canadian 137
UAE 79
NZ 72
S. African 68
Swedish 39
German 36
Swiss 36
Belgian 26
American 25
Malaysian 25
Irish 23
Indian 20
Italian 15
Norwegian 15
Mexican 14
Zimbabwean 12
Pakistani 11
Austrian 10
Greek 10
Danish 9
Dutch 9
Bahraini 8
Maltese 8
Yugoslav 7
Egyptian 6
Jamaican 6
French 5
Kenyan 5
Omani 5
Algerian 4
PNG 4
Croatian 3
Jordanian 3
Trinidadian 3
Brazilian 2
Czech 2
Finn 2
Hungarian 2
Iranian 2
Portuguese 2
Slovene 2
SriLankan 2
Turkish 2
Bahamian 1
Bulgarian 1
Chilean 1
Colombian 1
Ecuadorean 1
Ethiopian 1
Filipino 1
Grenadian 1
Luxembourger 1
Nepalese 1
Qatari 1
Seychellois1
Slovakian 1
Tongan 1
Ghost
Join Date: Jul 2000
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"Lay off pilots"??????????????
Where have you been???
We haven't got enough to fly the aircraft we have got, let alone the 120ish on order!!!
BTW There is a seniority list (updated once every decade!)
Where have you been???
We haven't got enough to fly the aircraft we have got, let alone the 120ish on order!!!
BTW There is a seniority list (updated once every decade!)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arabian Peninsula
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[quote=Capt737AA;2887778]So when EK would layoff pilots, how is it determined who goes first etc, with no seniority list per se?[/quote
As usual in aviation, the "undesirables" first, the most expensive, and probably, the non-aligned.
As usual in aviation, the "undesirables" first, the most expensive, and probably, the non-aligned.
Last edited by aimscabinet; 5th Oct 2006 at 07:02.
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Just in case you relative "newbies"" (less than about 12 years in EK) don't know, lay offs have happened in the past. Some guys were fired and some given leave without pay who subsequently returned.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Been here quite a bit longer than 12 years and have no recollection of this.
But if they could get away with it they would get rid of as many long termers as possible and replace them with new joiners on starting salaries.