Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane.
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Originally Posted by Icebreaker
bman,
actually it's not only me that thinks it's safer for an autopilot to do an approach. If you have access to air safety databases you too would see. Have you ever studied Human Factors - such as in JAR FCL?
Autopilots don't get tired after a 14 hour tour of duty for example.
And yes, I spent 12 years flying commuter aircraft, some without autopilots....but we ARE NOT talking about commuter aircraft are we! Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez....on FBW's the pilot isn't even directly connected to the flight controls!
actually it's not only me that thinks it's safer for an autopilot to do an approach. If you have access to air safety databases you too would see. Have you ever studied Human Factors - such as in JAR FCL?
Autopilots don't get tired after a 14 hour tour of duty for example.
And yes, I spent 12 years flying commuter aircraft, some without autopilots....but we ARE NOT talking about commuter aircraft are we! Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez....on FBW's the pilot isn't even directly connected to the flight controls!
My first reaction to your post was an angry rant about you being an arrogant A$$. Comments like" Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez"
But I thought better of it!
Point one:
You assume that I work for a commuter airline, you are wrong. I fly (operate if u wish)large aircraft (B744).
Point two:
Your "Fly/operate" arguement is semantic and I can site just as many accidents where the AP was fully functional and operating when the A/C collided with mother earth. AA Cali 757
Point Three:
FBW stands for FLY by Wire. If we were only ment to "operate" the aircraft there would not even need to be any form of controls system in an Aircraft. Some might think that we are headed that way, but the realistic limitations of the technology, current and near future, belies something to the contrary. An airplane isn't an airport shuttle train that can be safely operated by the limited AI that is currently available.
Point Four:
There shouldn't be a question of whether a pilot can fly an approach to minimums to the highest degree of safety. If that pilot cannot he has no business being in command of any aircraft ,large or small, carrying the unsuspecting public.The pilot and the autopilot have the same standards and operating parameters for an approach and need I remind you that when those standards were concieved autopilots weren't commonplace.
If you think it is appropriate to not allow pilots the discretion of hand flying then maybe you fall into the camp of those (especially management types) who think anyone can do this job.
My opinion is that it is essential that we Excercise our skills whenever we can. Everyone of us should strive to be the best pitch/power pilots that we can be, because when things go T.U. thats the guy we all want in the cockpit when our families are on board. SEE Al Haynes or Denny Fich UAL 232.
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Originally Posted by McGreaser
To the advocates of automation as opposed to manual flying what happens when due to the nature of the problem all autopilots are inop (e.g on the B767 loss of left ac bus) ? Do you let you pax know that you can't fly the a/c due to limited manual flying skills if at all or have no experience in flying an a/c due to company procedure compounded by lack of practice ? Or you would show the a/c "who is flying who". Whilst the advent of automation has brought about a huge increase in safety and reduction in workload in the industry, ignoring the basis of the profession which is to "pilot" an a/c is even more dangerous.
Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits
Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.
Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits
Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.
Somepeople don't even realize when situations happen that fall outside of the autopilots design limitations it turns itself off and guess who's got the airplane?!
United 232 is the prime example.
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There shouldn't be a question of whether a pilot can fly an approach to minimums to the highest degree of safety. If that pilot cannot he has no business being in command of any aircraft ,large or small, carrying the unsuspecting public.
whenever I have any of my family flying on any commercial jet, I would always want Maverick and Ice Man at the front to allow the automatics do it and them monitor those
When the chips are down and no AP's avail, you'd better pray that Mav & Ice didn't spend too much time at EK watching the AP's flying....
Shouldn't we be teaching those who struggle to hand fly to fly rather than stopping those who can from doing so?
Last edited by Warlock2000; 9th Jun 2006 at 12:26.
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We are pilots aren't we?
I can't belive what is being said on this thread! We are pilots and pilots fly airplanes. If they want computer operators they can hire monkeys to push bottons and pay them far less than even we make.
I was most recently at a US airline that had a superior training department. In fact the last time we killed any of our passengers that was atribtuted to pilot error or airline procedures was 1974. We were very good. Having said that we were not allowed to use the autopilot at all during recurrent sim sessions and the line pilots did just fine. Also the airline encourged the pilots to try different ideas out on the line each month. Like take-off without the flight directors or swithing the FD from the cross hairs to the bat-bars for each leg. On line checks the check airman would reach over and turn the A/P off and the flight directors off and say fly, yes that is fly the airplane. What a noval idea!
I can't believe that "most" airlines require its pilots to use the automation nowadays. The only reason that an airline would even publish that is maybe for the lawyers to cover themselves from a lawsuit.
I was most recently at a US airline that had a superior training department. In fact the last time we killed any of our passengers that was atribtuted to pilot error or airline procedures was 1974. We were very good. Having said that we were not allowed to use the autopilot at all during recurrent sim sessions and the line pilots did just fine. Also the airline encourged the pilots to try different ideas out on the line each month. Like take-off without the flight directors or swithing the FD from the cross hairs to the bat-bars for each leg. On line checks the check airman would reach over and turn the A/P off and the flight directors off and say fly, yes that is fly the airplane. What a noval idea!
I can't believe that "most" airlines require its pilots to use the automation nowadays. The only reason that an airline would even publish that is maybe for the lawyers to cover themselves from a lawsuit.
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OH FOR CHRISTs SAKE, LISTEN ALL YOU BLOODY MANUAL HEROES. IF YOU ARE ALL SO BLOODY GOOD AND THE FORCE IS ALWAYS WITH YOU, THEN WHY LET THE AUTOMATICS FLY THE JET.... BECAUSE IT DOES IT BETTTTTTEEEEEEERRRRRRR? nooooo wayyyyyy. WIIIIIIIIIND YOUR NECKS IN AND REALISE THAT YOUR EGOS ARE WAY ABOVE YOUR ABILITIES. IF YOU CAN FLY FOR 14HRS AND DO A CAT 3 DUAL LANDING BETTER THAN THE AP THEN TELL ME SO,,,,,,AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY WILL BELIEVE YOU, SO SHUT IT AND GET ON WITH ANOTHER THREAD. Really bored of maverick and goose telling us how well they are going to do this job better and with all our families on, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN.
and if you feel upset by this post MAV AND ICE, then go to councelling as CRM is way beyond your own awesome abilities. Your reply means your requirement for rehaB!!
and if you feel upset by this post MAV AND ICE, then go to councelling as CRM is way beyond your own awesome abilities. Your reply means your requirement for rehaB!!
Last edited by critical winge; 9th Jun 2006 at 19:13.
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Bman....yeah yeah, whatever you believe.... 
have to agree again with Crit Winge.....
The simulators prove we can do it all manually when we have to but lets face it, the modern automation systems don't suffer from fatigue and in almost all conditions will do a better job than us. Our responsibility is to the punters not to our "I am....I am" ego's. End of input.
have to agree again with Crit Winge.....
The simulators prove we can do it all manually when we have to but lets face it, the modern automation systems don't suffer from fatigue and in almost all conditions will do a better job than us. Our responsibility is to the punters not to our "I am....I am" ego's. End of input.
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Please get control of yourself Minge...
Obviously there are arguments for and against and any situation might be subtley different from the next. But the following is something less than professional:
Only getting 2s for 'handling', ehh minge??? 
Shame about your credibility around here after the above ranting.
Hope ya upgrade psych interview goes well!!
How's your hangover, Minge? Must've been a hell night on the sauce.....
Obviously there are arguments for and against and any situation might be subtley different from the next. But the following is something less than professional:
Originally Posted by critical minge
OH FOR CHRISTs SAKE, LISTEN ALL YOU BLOODY MANUAL HEROES. IF YOU ARE ALL SO BLOODY GOOD AND THE FORCE IS ALWAYS WITH YOU, THEN WHY LET THE AUTOMATICS FLY THE JET.... BECAUSE IT DOES IT BETTTTTTEEEEEEERRRRRRR? nooooo wayyyyyy. WIIIIIIIIIND YOUR NECKS IN AND REALISE THAT YOUR EGOS ARE WAY ABOVE YOUR ABILITIES. IF YOU CAN FLY FOR 14HRS AND DO A CAT 3 DUAL LANDING BETTER THAN THE AP THEN TELL ME SO,,,,,,AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY WILL BELIEVE YOU, SO SHUT IT AND GET ON WITH ANOTHER THREAD. Really bored of maverick and goose telling us how well they are going to do this job better and with all our families on, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN. and if you feel upset by this post MAV AND ICE, then go to councelling as CRM is way beyond your own awesome abilities. Your reply means your requirement for rehaB!!
Shame about your credibility around here after the above ranting.
Hope ya upgrade psych interview goes well!! How's your hangover, Minge? Must've been a hell night on the sauce.....
Last edited by Muttley Crew; 10th Jun 2006 at 20:07. Reason: wound back the rant a little....
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I just keep flying the thing. Unfortunately I have to keep the ATHR and FD in with this new FCI. I used to disconnect them for virtually every approach where it was possible.
Doing that, I was not practising, that's something I did when I was a student pilot. What I do by switching off the automatics is just doing my job at MAINTAINING my skills.
Of course I agree that when flying in a busy airspace or in marginal weather conditions, that a pilot should use the automatics as much as possible, but I also think that whenever conditions permit, a pilot should FLY the aircraft.
How to decide where to do what should be up to the pilot, because every day is different, and a good judgement is just basic airmanship. Of course, that's something a lot of guys at EK miss... unfortunately
Let's see how long untill we make a GF go-around because we miss a basic scan...
MR8
Doing that, I was not practising, that's something I did when I was a student pilot. What I do by switching off the automatics is just doing my job at MAINTAINING my skills.
Of course I agree that when flying in a busy airspace or in marginal weather conditions, that a pilot should use the automatics as much as possible, but I also think that whenever conditions permit, a pilot should FLY the aircraft.
How to decide where to do what should be up to the pilot, because every day is different, and a good judgement is just basic airmanship. Of course, that's something a lot of guys at EK miss... unfortunately
Let's see how long untill we make a GF go-around because we miss a basic scan...
MR8
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Throw 'em a bone, Bubba
>>....lets face it, the modern automation systems don't suffer from fatigue and in almost all conditions will do a better job than us.<<
More than likely true.
Looking at it another way, now that the EK crews are SO overworked and underpaid (according to a few of 'em anyway), this way the company can KEEP working 'em to the max, keep the pay within reason, and STILL keep the safety levels up.
Management, their finest hour.
What a beautiful idea!!
More than likely true.
Looking at it another way, now that the EK crews are SO overworked and underpaid (according to a few of 'em anyway), this way the company can KEEP working 'em to the max, keep the pay within reason, and STILL keep the safety levels up.
Management, their finest hour.
What a beautiful idea!!
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no one has asked for my opinion.
I work longer
I am always accurate
I never back stab
I never moan
I don't get paid
I don't bonk the hosties
I listen to alot of crap and never talk back
Gimme a break, watchin ya fly makes me laugh.
theautopilot
I work longer
I am always accurate
I never back stab
I never moan
I don't get paid
I don't bonk the hosties
I listen to alot of crap and never talk back
Gimme a break, watchin ya fly makes me laugh.
theautopilot
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I am limited at 15 cross
I sometimes just refuse to engage, God (Airbus) knows why
I can't handle RA's, I'm a little slow you know
If I don't like it or can't handle it, I always have my cheap back up:
I just throw it back at that lazy tart behind the stick
If the latter then runs into trouble, no sweat, it will always be statistcally
marked as pilot error.
Get professional guys. We're still needed with our skills.
Skills need to be sharpened, not inhibited.
I sometimes just refuse to engage, God (Airbus) knows why
I can't handle RA's, I'm a little slow you know
If I don't like it or can't handle it, I always have my cheap back up:
I just throw it back at that lazy tart behind the stick
If the latter then runs into trouble, no sweat, it will always be statistcally
marked as pilot error.
Get professional guys. We're still needed with our skills.
Skills need to be sharpened, not inhibited.
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I can't believe what is being said on this thread!
The guys who practice, at appropriate times, manual flying tend to be the more conscientious of the group. Sadly, the 'AP on at 100 feet brigade' tend to be the pillows and blankets at 10, 000 feet types. Not modern airplane "programmers", just lazy $hits!
(CW, tone more than content, you've lost a lot of credibility with that post.
)
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I suppose it's "horses for courses" but in our outfit we are encouraged to handfly the aircraft when appropriate ie when the traffic is light and the wx is good at a quiet airfield. Nothing wrong with that - nobody's forced to do it and those who do it regularly, definitely show up better in the sim in their handling skills than the lazy b*ggers.
I seem to remember the Gulf Air accident not a world away from said EK! A little handling skills in a routine 2-engined go-around would not have gone amiss methinks! Remind me NOT to fly with EK from now on. I'd like to think that when the bright shiny Bus ( or Boeing) decides to do its own thing, that at least one of the guys/gals up front could do something about it. They sure as hell aint gonna learn it in the sim in 4r hrs every six months.
I seem to remember the Gulf Air accident not a world away from said EK! A little handling skills in a routine 2-engined go-around would not have gone amiss methinks! Remind me NOT to fly with EK from now on. I'd like to think that when the bright shiny Bus ( or Boeing) decides to do its own thing, that at least one of the guys/gals up front could do something about it. They sure as hell aint gonna learn it in the sim in 4r hrs every six months.
Don't agree with FCI, but its their company. However, i WILL do VOR/NDS/RNAV approaches and visuals (following SOP's) regularly. Not practicing, just flying as trained. One day i might have to do that Circling approach in Sh1tty Wx. Better be ready i guess
As for A/Thr well it ain't rocket science is it!
EGGW
As for A/Thr well it ain't rocket science is it!
EGGW
Surely the ideal pilot should have equal competency at hand flying the aeroplane or monitoring and operating the automatics? If hand flying skills are not required then what's wrong with making inexperienced pilots captains providing they are up to scratch at monitoring automation? While you are at it, drop the salaries commensurate with basic computer skills which is all you need to press V and L Nav...
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AP1 Thanks
I agree with Seaman cant see why so many guys are spitting the dummy the Policy has been around for a while in one form or another with the powers that be banging the drums on this one for a while.
Seen more than the odd stuff up at 2 or 3 am departing Dubai from my off sider showing me how crash hot their flying skills are and as a previous poster pointed out its all FBW and we are not in the local aeroclub so what really are you doing?
Personally the fun went out of flying many moons ago. We are here to get the punters safely from A to B deal with the night to day problems and any thing else in between. I don't have a problem saying AP1 shortly after Take Off and disconnecting before landing.
We all know how to fly Airplanes else we wouldn't have been given the job in the first place. One guy I recall mentioned that in the old days the blokes who drove the Steam Trains around were paid big bucks and had to operate complicated machinery, now days you can jump in an electric train that is fully automated and doesn't even need a train driver.
Times have changed and will keep changing. Personal computers and monitors are cheap these days you can use very realistic software to emulate both Boeing and Airbus FBW B777 and A330/A340.
Have to say Im surprised over all the hoo hah, what happend with just getting the job done?
Seen more than the odd stuff up at 2 or 3 am departing Dubai from my off sider showing me how crash hot their flying skills are and as a previous poster pointed out its all FBW and we are not in the local aeroclub so what really are you doing?
Personally the fun went out of flying many moons ago. We are here to get the punters safely from A to B deal with the night to day problems and any thing else in between. I don't have a problem saying AP1 shortly after Take Off and disconnecting before landing.
We all know how to fly Airplanes else we wouldn't have been given the job in the first place. One guy I recall mentioned that in the old days the blokes who drove the Steam Trains around were paid big bucks and had to operate complicated machinery, now days you can jump in an electric train that is fully automated and doesn't even need a train driver.
Times have changed and will keep changing. Personal computers and monitors are cheap these days you can use very realistic software to emulate both Boeing and Airbus FBW B777 and A330/A340.
Have to say Im surprised over all the hoo hah, what happend with just getting the job done?