Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane.
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Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane.
According to latest EK policy the highest level of automation must be used for the current phase of flight. Hand flying the aircraft without auto-thrust / flight directors is no longer allowed and flying without the auto pilot engaged is clearly also to be avoided.
The rationale behind this new revelation -
Now here's another pearl of wisdom from the powers that be! 
The rationale behind this new revelation -
line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills
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More than anything else, I suppose, it has something to do with fuel saving.
Computers have long been known to fly more fuel-efficient than humans.
A vicious circle really, with the now further degrading manual flying skills.
But be honest....how often did you really fly 'manual' in recent times???
Cheers,
Ikarus :-)
Computers have long been known to fly more fuel-efficient than humans.
A vicious circle really, with the now further degrading manual flying skills.
But be honest....how often did you really fly 'manual' in recent times???
Cheers,
Ikarus :-)
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Sorry Warlock, gotta agree with "line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills".
I think you will find this is the same in many airlines around the world (certainly was the case at the last 2 British carriers I was with).
I for one don't feel the need to "practice" on the line, and I think most of us have the experience to be able to cope if all the automatics "dropped off line". KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).
Having said that, I do disagree with the other 92,000 stupid policies!!!!!
Cheers
I think you will find this is the same in many airlines around the world (certainly was the case at the last 2 British carriers I was with).
I for one don't feel the need to "practice" on the line, and I think most of us have the experience to be able to cope if all the automatics "dropped off line". KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).
Having said that, I do disagree with the other 92,000 stupid policies!!!!!
Cheers
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I understand that there are times when flying the plane through the automatics makes perfect sense (long night flights, crappy wx etc) and is highly recommended.
The problem with the new policy is that now even on a CAVOK day, during daylight hours the pilot is no longer permitted to fly the plane, and flying the plane is by definition of job description definitely not practicing handling skills.
That would be steep turns and stalls out in the GF.
The problem with the new policy is that now even on a CAVOK day, during daylight hours the pilot is no longer permitted to fly the plane, and flying the plane is by definition of job description definitely not practicing handling skills.
That would be steep turns and stalls out in the GF.
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What about the new joiners and more-so, the cadets.... first time they fly the jet they have 300 paying punters down the back who have no idea they are being used to fund a training flight...... oh my God!! Let's get a grip here, please or this time next year it'll be AutoLand Only.
Rumour has it this policy emphasis was a reaction to some DECs who "didn't do it like this in my old airline..."? (Yes something else to blame DECs for
, but I did say it was a rumour and like it or not, true or not, it is out there doing the rounds.)
Me, I think it's because some of the guys are sub-standard and can't fly for sh!t. The same reason everyone is so afraid of flying a VISUAL frigging APPROACH, for fcuk's sake. And we weren't allowed to do them for such a long time. The laughing stock of Sydney ATC where Independent VISUAL Approachs applied to everyone except us.
Having seen the way SOME of the guys hand-fly an ILS intercept, lurching and heaving around, following the F/D, some practice would definitely not go astray.
IAS slightly low during climb-out but the F/D says pitch up so that's what they do, only to have it come straight-back down as soon as the directed B/A is reached....
Stuff like that. You know??
Rumour has it this policy emphasis was a reaction to some DECs who "didn't do it like this in my old airline..."? (Yes something else to blame DECs for
, but I did say it was a rumour and like it or not, true or not, it is out there doing the rounds.) Me, I think it's because some of the guys are sub-standard and can't fly for sh!t. The same reason everyone is so afraid of flying a VISUAL frigging APPROACH, for fcuk's sake. And we weren't allowed to do them for such a long time. The laughing stock of Sydney ATC where Independent VISUAL Approachs applied to everyone except us.
I for one don't feel the need to "practice" on the line, and I think most of us have the experience to be able to cope if all the automatics "dropped off line".
IAS slightly low during climb-out but the F/D says pitch up so that's what they do, only to have it come straight-back down as soon as the directed B/A is reached....
Stuff like that. You know??
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Muttley, regarding the F/D, have you ever noticed how the Automatics fly the aircraft?
I dont fly the 777, but the Boeings I have flown, when the AP is controlling the aircraft - the F/D is absolutley nailed virtually all the time, spot-on.
Watching how the automatics do it, can teach you a lot about how to smoothly and accurately fly the aircraft.
I dont fly the 777, but the Boeings I have flown, when the AP is controlling the aircraft - the F/D is absolutley nailed virtually all the time, spot-on.
Watching how the automatics do it, can teach you a lot about how to smoothly and accurately fly the aircraft.
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Most CFIT were accomplished with the FD spot on. Automatics don't fix everything.
But this is not the issue. The issue is that too many at EK get sweaty hands if
you take away FD/AP/FMS over the airport at 5000ft and tell them to go and land.
Watching some fly into SEZ rwy13 with CB's in Jepp's way is scarey and revealing.
Such policies have been among the early signs of upcoming big one's, just as the
JNB incident. It unveals the incompetence of selection and training or their
complacency facing the cost cutting mania leading to dismanteling the bearly
acceptable standard that has once been established.
Just wait for the procedures on the A380: 20 miles final, fully configured on
final approach speed, only autoland and autobrake, max taxispeed 10kts. The FO
will definitely remain just to fill out the voyage report ....
But this is not the issue. The issue is that too many at EK get sweaty hands if
you take away FD/AP/FMS over the airport at 5000ft and tell them to go and land.
Watching some fly into SEZ rwy13 with CB's in Jepp's way is scarey and revealing.
Such policies have been among the early signs of upcoming big one's, just as the
JNB incident. It unveals the incompetence of selection and training or their
complacency facing the cost cutting mania leading to dismanteling the bearly
acceptable standard that has once been established.
Just wait for the procedures on the A380: 20 miles final, fully configured on
final approach speed, only autoland and autobrake, max taxispeed 10kts. The FO
will definitely remain just to fill out the voyage report ....
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Automation will always be there but in the "unlikely" event that it becomes unavailable then manual fying will save your life. But if you haven't been practising it or tried it then you could find your self in a big tin of soup with no meat whenn you are called upon to fly manually. Besides nothing beats flying an a/c manually especially without a F/D on a clear day. That's why we are called pilots not programmers..................................
whenn you are called upon to fly manually. Besides nothing beats flying an a/c manually especially without a F/D on a clear day. That's why we are called pilots not programmers..................................
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I thought you were watching from a comfortable armchair these days, at the old pilots' home.... 
Bit hard to get excited about FOs when you're worried about spitting out ya falsies or filling ya diapers....
"First Officer Bloggs, is this lump on my neck bigger than it was last week....???"
Bit hard to get excited about FOs when you're worried about spitting out ya falsies or filling ya diapers....
"First Officer Bloggs, is this lump on my neck bigger than it was last week....???"
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What?
411A
Are you the same 411A that thinks pilots are over paid louts? Now we are supposed to fly for a living? If we are so loutish, then why try to fly. Lets just push the buttons. FMA says 'CAT III dual' no probs until - OH NO - No flare, or lack of 'FLARE' call by FO. Big bang. Oopps.
Are you the same 411A that thinks pilots are over paid louts? Now we are supposed to fly for a living? If we are so loutish, then why try to fly. Lets just push the buttons. FMA says 'CAT III dual' no probs until - OH NO - No flare, or lack of 'FLARE' call by FO. Big bang. Oopps.
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.....
For you guys that agree with this policy about only using automation (silly in my book), arent you going to miss actually "flying" the airplane? In my daily routine, ill usually handfly all the way to cruise and usually all the way back down (unless something would justify otherwise---unusually busy airspace, weather, etc) I dont know about the company procedures for many of the worlds airlines, but i wasnt aware that they are mandating using automation at all times unless something else is needed. Thats a shame for pilots, slowly but surely companies and aircraft builders are removing pilots out of the picture. I understand newer technology has its place in todays world of ever crowding airspace, weather, etc, but still.......arent we all flying these planes because, well, we enjoy flying? If i wanted to program a box I would have studied computer science. I guess ill have to accept the changes, or just keep getting jobs with second rate operators flying yesterdays technology.
This is why the newer generation of aircraft being produced interest me very little. I could care less about how techno-crazy the newest A380 or dreamliner is. Just give me round gauges and smokey engines. Someone made a good point about the cadet pilots that are being hired. You will have to excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject of cadet hiring, etc, but how is a guy who goes from light cessna's/pipers directly to a 737 supposed to learn to be a pilot if they are required by company policy to engage the autopilot at 1500' and not disengage it untill 200' or even make it autoland? Its going to be a not so good day when the captain has a heart attack and the 400hr. FO has to actually put their hands on the yoke and make things happen.
This is why the newer generation of aircraft being produced interest me very little. I could care less about how techno-crazy the newest A380 or dreamliner is. Just give me round gauges and smokey engines. Someone made a good point about the cadet pilots that are being hired. You will have to excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject of cadet hiring, etc, but how is a guy who goes from light cessna's/pipers directly to a 737 supposed to learn to be a pilot if they are required by company policy to engage the autopilot at 1500' and not disengage it untill 200' or even make it autoland? Its going to be a not so good day when the captain has a heart attack and the 400hr. FO has to actually put their hands on the yoke and make things happen.
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Using automation during marginal weather, operating in high density airports, non normal conditions or when fatigue maybe a factor just makes good common sense. However implementing a blanket SOP which mandates the use of autopilot during all phases of flight is not a good practice from a safety point of view in my opinion.
Typically wide body operators fly longer sectors resulting in fewer take off and landings per month. In my company our FO's may only get one or two sectors per month and spend the rest of the time dozing for dollars as we operate with augmented crews most of the time. So i encourage them to hand fly when conditions permit inorder to refresh there handling skills. We all know the autopilot can fly. Infact our MEL authorizes the crew to fly up to 8 hours with no autopilos although i would dread ever having to do that.
And i can personally say that my handling skills have deteriated over the years flying a 744, infact we refer to the 400 as a retirment acft..But then again i'm not the "Ace of the Base".
Typically wide body operators fly longer sectors resulting in fewer take off and landings per month. In my company our FO's may only get one or two sectors per month and spend the rest of the time dozing for dollars as we operate with augmented crews most of the time. So i encourage them to hand fly when conditions permit inorder to refresh there handling skills. We all know the autopilot can fly. Infact our MEL authorizes the crew to fly up to 8 hours with no autopilos although i would dread ever having to do that.
And i can personally say that my handling skills have deteriated over the years flying a 744, infact we refer to the 400 as a retirment acft..But then again i'm not the "Ace of the Base".
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One thing to do when you have had an engine failure is TO GET THE AP IN and THANK GOODNESS for the AP!! These jets aren't small flying club flyarounds and shouldn't be flown like so. Everyone who gets into an airliner has paid for the ticket as a contract to get them from points A to B as safely as possible. In my vote, (although hand flying should be practised IN THE SIM or UNDER SUPERVISION TRI etc in aircraft) whenever I have any of my family flying on any commercial jet, I would always want Maverick and Ice Man at the front to allow the automatics do it and them monitor those. Should the backup of all the redundant systems fail, only then would I appreciate a hand flown ILS to minimums, in a high crosswind, be flown by some boywonder who never made fighter school or NASA because he didn't have the required handling skills.
MOTTO of the global airlines SAFETY FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!
CW
MOTTO of the global airlines SAFETY FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!
CW
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Couldn't agree more with Crit Winge.
The modern day jets are designed to be flown with the automation, with pilots 'supervising' and programming. Why should the operation's overall safety level be degraded just to satisfy the pilot's desire for personal satisfaction. You've just got to compare the human errors when hand flying with 'george' operating - eg. level busts.
You guys that want to hand fly all the time, why not go to your local flying club and hire a Cessna? Or find a job on a 727? Nobody is forcing you to fly a heavy, modern jet.
The modern day jets are designed to be flown with the automation, with pilots 'supervising' and programming. Why should the operation's overall safety level be degraded just to satisfy the pilot's desire for personal satisfaction. You've just got to compare the human errors when hand flying with 'george' operating - eg. level busts.
You guys that want to hand fly all the time, why not go to your local flying club and hire a Cessna? Or find a job on a 727? Nobody is forcing you to fly a heavy, modern jet.
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There is nothing wrong with automation but I think we have it completely wrong here. We should be mandated to hand fly once a month opportunity permitting, taking into account things such as ATC, weather etc.
When exactly are we supposed to practice our skills then? Certainly not in the sim sessions. We are occasionally tasked with flying one approach manually but that is to be assessed, not just for practice. So, in other words, we never practice.
From my experience, those pilots who occasionally hand fly during appropriate conditions are those pilots who maintain there ability to do so effectively. The opposite is true for those who never fly manually.
As for other airlines.... I have worked for 2 that allowed if not encouraged pilots to occasionally manually fly the airbus.
I believe this is a potentially disastrous policy that is designed for the lowest common denominator.... ie. those pilots who typically botch up the approach when attempting to manually fly.
The MEL should now be amended to state that autothrust is required prior to dispatch. Otherwise we are now expected to fly the aircraft under circumstances that we are neither trained for or ever practice. Madness I say...
When exactly are we supposed to practice our skills then? Certainly not in the sim sessions. We are occasionally tasked with flying one approach manually but that is to be assessed, not just for practice. So, in other words, we never practice.
From my experience, those pilots who occasionally hand fly during appropriate conditions are those pilots who maintain there ability to do so effectively. The opposite is true for those who never fly manually.
As for other airlines.... I have worked for 2 that allowed if not encouraged pilots to occasionally manually fly the airbus.
I believe this is a potentially disastrous policy that is designed for the lowest common denominator.... ie. those pilots who typically botch up the approach when attempting to manually fly.
The MEL should now be amended to state that autothrust is required prior to dispatch. Otherwise we are now expected to fly the aircraft under circumstances that we are neither trained for or ever practice. Madness I say...
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Originally Posted by Icebreaker
Couldn't agree more with Crit Winge.
The modern day jets are designed to be flown with the automation, with pilots 'supervising' and programming. Why should the operation's overall safety level be degraded just to satisfy the pilot's desire for personal satisfaction. You've just got to compare the human errors when hand flying with 'george' operating - eg. level busts.
You guys that want to hand fly all the time, why not go to your local flying club and hire a Cessna? Or find a job on a 727? Nobody is forcing you to fly a heavy, modern jet.
The modern day jets are designed to be flown with the automation, with pilots 'supervising' and programming. Why should the operation's overall safety level be degraded just to satisfy the pilot's desire for personal satisfaction. You've just got to compare the human errors when hand flying with 'george' operating - eg. level busts.
You guys that want to hand fly all the time, why not go to your local flying club and hire a Cessna? Or find a job on a 727? Nobody is forcing you to fly a heavy, modern jet.
If you spent anytime flying for a commuter in A/C that had no autopilot you might have a higher opinion of what pilots actually do. Which is fly airplanes. Think 8 approaches to mins everyday all day.This arguement is totally inane!
Every pilot in the room say it with me now " I am paid to FLY airplanes! Every system in the aircraft is to ultimately AUGEMENT my skill!"
Remember for many decades there were airplanes with no autopilots or dare I say it FMSs and the pilots managed to operate aircraft safely. GO read Fate is The Hunter sometime.
It seems like many have adopted the idea that a good pilot is someone who can prattle off obscure tidbits about a particular aircraft system or radar wave lengths. That's way off we can all stand to continually excerise our skills. Its not bloody training!
As an aside doe EK conduct IOE or some type of line qualification for their intial pilots?
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bman,
actually it's not only me that thinks it's safer for an autopilot to do an approach. If you have access to air safety databases you too would see. Have you ever studied Human Factors - such as in JAR FCL?
Autopilots don't get tired after a 14 hour tour of duty for example.
And yes, I spent 12 years flying commuter aircraft, some without autopilots....but we ARE NOT talking about commuter aircraft are we! Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez....on FBW's the pilot isn't even directly connected to the flight controls!
actually it's not only me that thinks it's safer for an autopilot to do an approach. If you have access to air safety databases you too would see. Have you ever studied Human Factors - such as in JAR FCL?
Autopilots don't get tired after a 14 hour tour of duty for example.
And yes, I spent 12 years flying commuter aircraft, some without autopilots....but we ARE NOT talking about commuter aircraft are we! Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez....on FBW's the pilot isn't even directly connected to the flight controls!
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To the advocates of automation as opposed to manual flying what happens when due to the nature of the problem all autopilots are inop (e.g on the B767 loss of left ac bus) ? Do you let you pax know that you can't fly the a/c due to limited manual flying skills if at all or have no experience in flying an a/c due to company procedure compounded by lack of practice ? Or you would show the a/c "who is flying who". Whilst the advent of automation has brought about a huge increase in safety and reduction in workload in the industry, ignoring the basis of the profession which is to "pilot" an a/c is even more dangerous.
Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits
Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.
Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits
Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.