Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane.
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Originally Posted by uplock
cant see why so many guys are spitting the dummy....... Have to say Im surprised over all the hoo hah
The policy has always been to make maximum use of the automation. The FCI formalises the policy, somewhat, and emphasises the intent. Now, if something goes wrong, there is one more meat-hook from which to hang the pilot (as opposed to the policies).
These FCIs or policy reminders normally come about as a result of an event of some kind. I'd like to know what triggered this latest effort from the office.
Meanwhile, some pilots will continue to engage auto-pilot at 200ft with a sigh of relief whilst others will hand-fly until they see fit to engage the auto-pilot because the FCI doesn't stipulate exactly when to engage it.
The first lot will disengage at the DH or wherever they feel it's safe to "cut in" for a moment whilst the other guys might actually hand-fly the intercept.
So what??? With the size of the egos being bruised here, you'd think it was indeed Maverick, Slider and Mailman we were talking about...
All over a little hand-flying in a straight line.
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I think from the above that no-one disagrees that flying the aircraft through the automatics it at times the best and safest option, but, there are times when some hands on manipulation of the flight controls is ALSO prefectly acceptable. It's a matter of choice, in the past if you wanted to fly AP/A-THR/FD engaged ALL the time fine - it was your choice, now it is no longer. 
And as for the FBW comment that the pilot is not connected to the flight controls - I've got a wireless mouse and it does the same job as my old wire one.
And as for the FBW comment that the pilot is not connected to the flight controls - I've got a wireless mouse and it does the same job as my old wire one.
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Recency and ability
I'm a bit stupified by some of the replies here..
It's a FACT that if you don't fly manual for a long time, you will get rusty at is. Doesn't take a lot to brush up, just a few approaches in good weather to actually feel how the lady behaves. If someone tells me that they KNOW how to fly, and they don't need to keep up their abilities, well, that sounds to me a lot more like a hotshotpilot instead of the guy who flies the plane, and thus admits that his skills will go downward if he wouldn't practise. Who to call Maverick or Iceman now??
Even if you don't agree with me on that point, what about the ''less fortunate'' guys, who never will have the chance to actually fly a jet with these new policies. Would you want to have your family on board of that flight to Hong Kong with a nice gusty crosswind, maybe windshear, and the two local guys in the front haven't really flown the thing manual before, because they weren't supposed to do so? No offence to the local guys, just wondering where the cadet will be getting his experience to become a good captain? Maybe he should go out and rent a Piper for his manual skills?
Bottomline, I think it's ridiculous to issue an FCI like this one. The sole reason we are on board of the aircraft is for when the faeces hits the fan, and then you'd better be prepared..
MR8
It's a FACT that if you don't fly manual for a long time, you will get rusty at is. Doesn't take a lot to brush up, just a few approaches in good weather to actually feel how the lady behaves. If someone tells me that they KNOW how to fly, and they don't need to keep up their abilities, well, that sounds to me a lot more like a hotshotpilot instead of the guy who flies the plane, and thus admits that his skills will go downward if he wouldn't practise. Who to call Maverick or Iceman now??
Even if you don't agree with me on that point, what about the ''less fortunate'' guys, who never will have the chance to actually fly a jet with these new policies. Would you want to have your family on board of that flight to Hong Kong with a nice gusty crosswind, maybe windshear, and the two local guys in the front haven't really flown the thing manual before, because they weren't supposed to do so? No offence to the local guys, just wondering where the cadet will be getting his experience to become a good captain? Maybe he should go out and rent a Piper for his manual skills?
Bottomline, I think it's ridiculous to issue an FCI like this one. The sole reason we are on board of the aircraft is for when the faeces hits the fan, and then you'd better be prepared..
MR8
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Personal computers and monitors are cheap these days you can use very realistic software to emulate both Boeing and Airbus FBW B777 and A330/A340.
:-) (-:
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Nice one MR8.
I'm just at the beginning of my career, so I sometimes like to compare myself with the cadets. I finished my ratings with about 270hrs, mainly C152, C172, a bit of twin time.
After the 40+ hours of sim-time during the type rating I felt I can "fly" the plane, but only the next few hundred hours taught me how it really "behaves".
We can - and sometimes have to - fly VOR, NDB, visual approaches, ...
We always fly ILS when appropriate (busy airports, bad weather, ...). But if the weather is good and traffic permits, I don't believe it's unsafe to fly visually or disconnect the autopilot and FD, fly a practise VOR approach...
I've got about 500 hours on type now on as many legs and must confess, only now I slowly start feeling comfortable with most the stuff the weather throws at me (appart from very strong crosswinds, my max was 20kts and dodging thunderstorms - had the good luck of missing most of them so far due to mainly morning flights).
Not everyone in a major airline joins with thousands of hours - some are low time, who might still need some "practise" sessions, who not only need to "maintain" their skills, but to actually aquire them...
Oblaaspop said: "line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills". I do agree. But I also believe that an airline shouldn't just rule it out totally. Did they actually leave a leeway - some exceptions? Something like: Cadets during their supervision should perform a certain amound of A/P off approaches? or: on flights with training captains, weather and traffic permitting certain things are still allowed?
I must say - I do enjoy the type of flying I do. Having the plane fly down an ILS in nice weather so you have more time to enjoy the view is great, but nothing beats a nice visual approach with 30km+ visibility and blue sky - for example in Venice where the line ups for the ILS are usually something like: fly direkt Laren (hdg 200) - cleared ILS 04R.
I'm just at the beginning of my career, so I sometimes like to compare myself with the cadets. I finished my ratings with about 270hrs, mainly C152, C172, a bit of twin time.
After the 40+ hours of sim-time during the type rating I felt I can "fly" the plane, but only the next few hundred hours taught me how it really "behaves".
We can - and sometimes have to - fly VOR, NDB, visual approaches, ...
We always fly ILS when appropriate (busy airports, bad weather, ...). But if the weather is good and traffic permits, I don't believe it's unsafe to fly visually or disconnect the autopilot and FD, fly a practise VOR approach...
I've got about 500 hours on type now on as many legs and must confess, only now I slowly start feeling comfortable with most the stuff the weather throws at me (appart from very strong crosswinds, my max was 20kts and dodging thunderstorms - had the good luck of missing most of them so far due to mainly morning flights).
Not everyone in a major airline joins with thousands of hours - some are low time, who might still need some "practise" sessions, who not only need to "maintain" their skills, but to actually aquire them...
Oblaaspop said: "line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills". I do agree. But I also believe that an airline shouldn't just rule it out totally. Did they actually leave a leeway - some exceptions? Something like: Cadets during their supervision should perform a certain amound of A/P off approaches? or: on flights with training captains, weather and traffic permitting certain things are still allowed?
I must say - I do enjoy the type of flying I do. Having the plane fly down an ILS in nice weather so you have more time to enjoy the view is great, but nothing beats a nice visual approach with 30km+ visibility and blue sky - for example in Venice where the line ups for the ILS are usually something like: fly direkt Laren (hdg 200) - cleared ILS 04R.
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MR8, couldn't agree with you more, its not about ego or proving you are iceman.
For an experienced airline pilot, hand flying must be a motor action or an over learned process, that requires minimal mental effort, so that they can cope with other tasks.
If a pilot is rusty, or worse, has never developed good hand flying skills they will have a significantly higher cognitive workload the day they have to hand fly, whether it is a gusty x-wind approach, autoflight system abnormal, windshear recovery or Carnarsie arrival into JFK. Lack of hand flying practice means they will have no extra capacity to maintain good situational awareness or deal with any failures.
All of our major incidents in the airline have required solid flying skills to recover the situation, (KG, SAN, JNB etc). Yes leaving flying to the automatics gives a better performance 99% of the time, but in these highly automated aircraft we are there for the day when it all does not work as advertised, then we have to take over smoothly and seamlessly. This requires that we rewuire some level of practice, to maintain our hand flying motor skills. Anyone who does not understand this is either in denial or just plain thick.
For an experienced airline pilot, hand flying must be a motor action or an over learned process, that requires minimal mental effort, so that they can cope with other tasks.
If a pilot is rusty, or worse, has never developed good hand flying skills they will have a significantly higher cognitive workload the day they have to hand fly, whether it is a gusty x-wind approach, autoflight system abnormal, windshear recovery or Carnarsie arrival into JFK. Lack of hand flying practice means they will have no extra capacity to maintain good situational awareness or deal with any failures.
All of our major incidents in the airline have required solid flying skills to recover the situation, (KG, SAN, JNB etc). Yes leaving flying to the automatics gives a better performance 99% of the time, but in these highly automated aircraft we are there for the day when it all does not work as advertised, then we have to take over smoothly and seamlessly. This requires that we rewuire some level of practice, to maintain our hand flying motor skills. Anyone who does not understand this is either in denial or just plain thick.
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Good point on the MEL. Just looked it up and the MEL states that dispatch with A/P, F/D and A/T inop. are authorised unless ETOPS, RVSM or low viz however faced with this situation would AS and co accept a reasoning of “this is not the time…” and have the airplane grounded in some airport around the not so developed world.
A fellow Gulf carrier lost lives because the pilot became disorientated in manually flying the aircraft, before stating the obvious that would he have used automatics the incident would not have happened, just three days ago the A/P disengaged in a brand new A/C and for some unexplained reason would not re-engage until 15 minutes later. Should an incident as this mean a potential hull loss, what if it happened on a dark night flying into some outpost, as we do. On the 330 that lost an engine the A/T would NOT re-engage, what then is it acceptable to believe that safety should be compromised because the driver was not up to speed.
We as the “PILOTS” are the last line of defence against catastrophe and as such this line depends on well skilled and professional operators. We are licensed not to a commercial entity but a government authority who mandates a minimum level of competency. As far as the argument regarding economics, ask gulf air if they would have accepted 16kg’s extra fuel burn per approach in lieu of a disaster such as they faced.
A fellow Gulf carrier lost lives because the pilot became disorientated in manually flying the aircraft, before stating the obvious that would he have used automatics the incident would not have happened, just three days ago the A/P disengaged in a brand new A/C and for some unexplained reason would not re-engage until 15 minutes later. Should an incident as this mean a potential hull loss, what if it happened on a dark night flying into some outpost, as we do. On the 330 that lost an engine the A/T would NOT re-engage, what then is it acceptable to believe that safety should be compromised because the driver was not up to speed.
We as the “PILOTS” are the last line of defence against catastrophe and as such this line depends on well skilled and professional operators. We are licensed not to a commercial entity but a government authority who mandates a minimum level of competency. As far as the argument regarding economics, ask gulf air if they would have accepted 16kg’s extra fuel burn per approach in lieu of a disaster such as they faced.
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I love being micro-managed again. Here we are trying to be overly safe that we are taking the thinking out of the pilots. Already airmanship is gone cause we are over reliance on the Fcuk'in FOM. Boom!! That's whats going to happen next. Nice to have someone in the office flying the plane.
I just wonder how successful some of this group will be in the event they are faced with the possibility of a non-autopilot, pre-employment simulator check after years and years of button pushing.
While I would agree that hand flying for hours from 30-50W, or 5-10 holding circuits at Ockham while at 0300 base time is over the top, but becoming familiar with your aircraft with the autopilot off when the opportunity presents itself will enhance the safety level of your operation.
While I would agree that hand flying for hours from 30-50W, or 5-10 holding circuits at Ockham while at 0300 base time is over the top, but becoming familiar with your aircraft with the autopilot off when the opportunity presents itself will enhance the safety level of your operation.
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It's like golf; you need time on the course to keep your handicap. Cannot rely on your ability of the past. I sat as a P3 ( Second Officer) for almost 4 years, needed LOT of time to get the skill back, it is not just cadets.
Would gladly follow the company S.O.P. if they give me time to practice my swing and putting on the driving range.
Unfortunately simulators have become "checking" and not "training" aids.....Well in my company anyway!!
Personally I disconnect when ever the oppertunety arrive.
Would gladly follow the company S.O.P. if they give me time to practice my swing and putting on the driving range.
Unfortunately simulators have become "checking" and not "training" aids.....Well in my company anyway!!
Personally I disconnect when ever the oppertunety arrive.
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Had to reflect on some of the wiser statements made about flying, sadly none from this thread.
If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger, if you pull the stick back they get smaller. (Unless you keep pulling the stick back -then they get bigger again)
Modern A/Ps don’t allow this manual rule. And (pilot safe) automatics are there to help Maverick recover from a bad situation.
Remember, you're always a student in an airplane A/Ps have been around longer than most of us.
CFIT. Would love to know the proportion of Human Vs AP CFIT statistics.
Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy, but not for one who still is.
Lol.
Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.
Automatics have a lot of previous experience built into them. A solitary Mav or Ice man can no way be up to date with all the possibilities that have taken out his previous heroes.
Ice man, was that a landing or were we shot down?
The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!
Oh, why should I go on. By the way. I have flown low level very fast on my own. But still I believe we should let the automatics do it until we really have to take over. Its easy to keep the blue side up and the brown side down, when you did your selection you prooved it. If you lost both A/Ps you cant be trusted to fly anyway and Non RVS compliant ensures you don’t attempt it. POINT MADE AND FINISHED.
If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger, if you pull the stick back they get smaller. (Unless you keep pulling the stick back -then they get bigger again)
Modern A/Ps don’t allow this manual rule. And (pilot safe) automatics are there to help Maverick recover from a bad situation.
Remember, you're always a student in an airplane A/Ps have been around longer than most of us.
CFIT. Would love to know the proportion of Human Vs AP CFIT statistics.
Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy, but not for one who still is.
Lol.
Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.
Automatics have a lot of previous experience built into them. A solitary Mav or Ice man can no way be up to date with all the possibilities that have taken out his previous heroes.
Ice man, was that a landing or were we shot down?
The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!
Oh, why should I go on. By the way. I have flown low level very fast on my own. But still I believe we should let the automatics do it until we really have to take over. Its easy to keep the blue side up and the brown side down, when you did your selection you prooved it. If you lost both A/Ps you cant be trusted to fly anyway and Non RVS compliant ensures you don’t attempt it. POINT MADE AND FINISHED.
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If only it was that easy critical winge, why does the powers to be want us to demonstrate our skills bi annually?
The reason I got the job was because I could fly the sim. well due to the fact that I was "hands on current"
The reason I got the job was because I could fly the sim. well due to the fact that I was "hands on current"
Originally Posted by critical winge
Ice man, was that a landing or were we shot down?
The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!
The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!
Mine doesn't
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Would i be right in saying that EK still require you to hand fly the sim when interviewing for a job here.
Bit hypocritical don't you think if they require you to posess the skills when you arrive, but don't require you to retain them once you are here.
Bit hypocritical don't you think if they require you to posess the skills when you arrive, but don't require you to retain them once you are here.
