Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane.
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Situational Awareness
If I may be allowed to speak in my previous capacity as a training captain. I can definitely see a far greater level of situational awareness from pilots with regular hands on flying practice (and this includes jets with moving maps).
This enhanced S.A. is clearly evident when the automatics are engaged ALSO.
All studies back up this evidence.
The pilot has far more free capacity when the **** hits the fan if he has the scan associated with a well practiced pilot, that is why you do a sim ride manually prior to employment. It shows how much spare capacity you have.
The aircraft will still be dispatched with a u/s autopilot and those that are insisting you don't "practice" are the one's who will insist that you accept this aircraft.
There is definitely a time & a place, as mentioned previously in this thread.
BUT...
It is completely crazy to word a rule that precludes manual flight at midday on a CAVOK day to your home base when there is little or no traffic.
Who comes up with this crap? The tail is wagging the dog.
A cadet who eventually gains his command and has to land in a large crosswind because the conditions are outside the autoland limits is a VERY SCARY proposition. Far more dangerous than rewording this rule to return to COMMON SENSE.
CW you are lucky enough to have lots of hands on. Some of us have but that is no longer true for many pilots.
I've trained lot's of 200 hour cadets (in my previous airline) and they NEED to get hands on experience on the aircraft. No sim will be good enough (in the forseeable future). Even one of your qualifing autolands has to be done in the aircraft.
An automatics only attitude will get these guys into ALOT of trouble, mark my words. Management pilots that come up with these rules don't fly much anymore. Some don't fly at all any more. Even TRI's who can't escape the sim are getting little exposure to the real job
I have yet to see any aircraft, fly by wire or otherwise that has auotmatic landing limits equal to manual landing limits.
The hard landings are manual one's SURE! But that's because the autopilot wasn't able to do the job AT ALL! Not because pilots are all dick heads who should stay away from the controls. Most hard landings find nothing wrong with the a/c during inspection, and are not truely HARD.
There are still many occasions when manual intervention is THE BEST course of action to ensure a safe flight path.
TCAS RA events are handled better by pilots who are well practiced in manual flight. This is a manual flight critical manouvre. Are you comfortable with that?
YOU SHOULD BE.
This enhanced S.A. is clearly evident when the automatics are engaged ALSO.
All studies back up this evidence.
The pilot has far more free capacity when the **** hits the fan if he has the scan associated with a well practiced pilot, that is why you do a sim ride manually prior to employment. It shows how much spare capacity you have.
The aircraft will still be dispatched with a u/s autopilot and those that are insisting you don't "practice" are the one's who will insist that you accept this aircraft.
There is definitely a time & a place, as mentioned previously in this thread.
BUT...
It is completely crazy to word a rule that precludes manual flight at midday on a CAVOK day to your home base when there is little or no traffic.
Who comes up with this crap? The tail is wagging the dog.
A cadet who eventually gains his command and has to land in a large crosswind because the conditions are outside the autoland limits is a VERY SCARY proposition. Far more dangerous than rewording this rule to return to COMMON SENSE.
CW you are lucky enough to have lots of hands on. Some of us have but that is no longer true for many pilots.
I've trained lot's of 200 hour cadets (in my previous airline) and they NEED to get hands on experience on the aircraft. No sim will be good enough (in the forseeable future). Even one of your qualifing autolands has to be done in the aircraft.
An automatics only attitude will get these guys into ALOT of trouble, mark my words. Management pilots that come up with these rules don't fly much anymore. Some don't fly at all any more. Even TRI's who can't escape the sim are getting little exposure to the real job
I have yet to see any aircraft, fly by wire or otherwise that has auotmatic landing limits equal to manual landing limits.
The hard landings are manual one's SURE! But that's because the autopilot wasn't able to do the job AT ALL! Not because pilots are all dick heads who should stay away from the controls. Most hard landings find nothing wrong with the a/c during inspection, and are not truely HARD.
There are still many occasions when manual intervention is THE BEST course of action to ensure a safe flight path.
TCAS RA events are handled better by pilots who are well practiced in manual flight. This is a manual flight critical manouvre. Are you comfortable with that?
YOU SHOULD BE.
Personally i have had more hard, or should that be firm landings done by a fully Cat3b FBW aircraft than any bad effort on my part. Once at BHX RWY15, i had the friggin thing bounce in CAT3b on landing, only rescued it by manual intervention. Yes there was protection and LVP's in force.
Bottom line i agree that the new policy sucks, but work around it, let the SOP's work for you, visual approaches and NPA's are approved, use them!
I must say the truly worrying thing is the problem any cadets will face in the future, who have not truly been faced with a good exposure to strong xwinds and manual flight for extended periods. Would i want my family on board, no thanks
EGGW
Bottom line i agree that the new policy sucks, but work around it, let the SOP's work for you, visual approaches and NPA's are approved, use them!
I must say the truly worrying thing is the problem any cadets will face in the future, who have not truly been faced with a good exposure to strong xwinds and manual flight for extended periods. Would i want my family on board, no thanks
EGGW
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OK OK OK OK OKKKKK!!!! I give up, you are all as cool as Mav and Ice man and fair enough, you must remain hands on capable AS AND WHEN APPROPRIATE. Funny thing is I do it AT THE APPROPRIATE time also and therfore agree with you, generally. Jeepers, some of you guys do go on. No harm in causing a little debate, love the aviation terms asshole and tone of post. Come on guys, spot the wind up, getting way too serious, had to come out in the end. 
Besides I fly it manually every time (to 201')
Besides I fly it manually every time (to 201')
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Originally Posted by EGGW
Bottom line i agree that the new policy sucks, but work around it, let the SOP's work for you, visual approaches and NPA's are approved, use them!
"practice approaches using less than the best available approach guidance are not permitted in normal line operations".
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The A380 production delay is due to e.a. ".....problems with the highly sophisticated electronics."
So the mania to complicate things and taking it away from the expensive pilots and trying to give it
all to the oh so economical big brother takes a blow. This time it will be a huge financial one and
it will not be restraint to the manufacturer, but also to the airlines bowing to the hollow promises
they made. I hope Airbus (AND EK) will learn from this lesson: Keep it simple, best use of equipment
should also contain the pilot and if you continue to use him where HE performs best, you might end up
with the more economical solution!
So the mania to complicate things and taking it away from the expensive pilots and trying to give it
all to the oh so economical big brother takes a blow. This time it will be a huge financial one and
it will not be restraint to the manufacturer, but also to the airlines bowing to the hollow promises
they made. I hope Airbus (AND EK) will learn from this lesson: Keep it simple, best use of equipment
should also contain the pilot and if you continue to use him where HE performs best, you might end up
with the more economical solution!
Mhh, nice try in recovering some face, but I don't think so.
Hi Broken english. Lets play with words here, EK do all the time. I did not mention anything regards "practising" approaches, just being a competent shag line pilot and doing NPA's and visual approaches, no practice there mate! Try it out, you may one day have to do a sh*tty circling approach, at night, no amount of sim practice will help you out!
EGGW
EGGW
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Sorry Luton, wasn't having a stab at you.
Without revealing the full contents of an internal ASR I was pointing out that according to that ASR the only time EK crews are permitted to conduct a visual or NPA is when that is the best approach available.
For example (according to the ASR) a practice localiser approach should not be flown in good weather if an ILS approach is available.
From a lawyers narrow point of view it makes perfect sense to always operate to best capability. From the flight deck crews professional point of view it makes more sense to conduct an NPA in good weather as practice for the time when the NPA may be the best approach available in marginal weather conditions.
Is that clearer? (I was attempting to highlight the nonsense of the apparent company policy mentioned in the ASR).
Without revealing the full contents of an internal ASR I was pointing out that according to that ASR the only time EK crews are permitted to conduct a visual or NPA is when that is the best approach available.
For example (according to the ASR) a practice localiser approach should not be flown in good weather if an ILS approach is available.
From a lawyers narrow point of view it makes perfect sense to always operate to best capability. From the flight deck crews professional point of view it makes more sense to conduct an NPA in good weather as practice for the time when the NPA may be the best approach available in marginal weather conditions.
Is that clearer? (I was attempting to highlight the nonsense of the apparent company policy mentioned in the ASR).
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EK policies are there to allow the company maximum flexibility and enable blaming the pilots when something goes wrong. Its just a shame the GCAA is so dumb as to let them away with such patently ambiguous policies.
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I would love to hand fly the aircraft more, do the odd 'join downwind for a visual circuit' (heck I used to do it before in a 747-400). However, I am about to put my wife and kids on an aircraft back to blighty this summer and given the ability of some of our pilots, I am more than happy with EK policies.
Heck, the company had to put in 'gates' and policies to drastically reduce the number of go-arounds and thats with crews using ALL available automation!! Let some of the idiots turn off the automation and guess what?.. it WILL be abused and there'll be an incident. Just look at the number of incidents there used to be before they tightened up the policies. I think we've been damn lucky so far.
Another interesting point of discussion might be that if guys handling skills are poor then this should be picked up by the training department and acted on accordingly. Lets have more 'hands-on' flying in the sim please!
Safe Flying All.
Heck, the company had to put in 'gates' and policies to drastically reduce the number of go-arounds and thats with crews using ALL available automation!! Let some of the idiots turn off the automation and guess what?.. it WILL be abused and there'll be an incident. Just look at the number of incidents there used to be before they tightened up the policies. I think we've been damn lucky so far.
Another interesting point of discussion might be that if guys handling skills are poor then this should be picked up by the training department and acted on accordingly. Lets have more 'hands-on' flying in the sim please!
Safe Flying All.
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In the same way that Tartanguy turned out to be brian, I wonder if KeepRecovering could turn out to be alan.
Spinning up EK and DXB on his other post (no problem with that, quite refreshing for a change). But, doing down his colleagues on this thread? Very bad form, old boy.
Now, who would have that point of view?
Sounds like an 'ace on the stick' though (double entendre intended):
Anybody know how brian is these days?
Spinning up EK and DXB on his other post (no problem with that, quite refreshing for a change). But, doing down his colleagues on this thread? Very bad form, old boy.
Now, who would have that point of view?
Sounds like an 'ace on the stick' though (double entendre intended):
Originally Posted by KeepRecovering
...... do the odd 'join downwind for a visual circuit' (heck I used to do it before in a 747-400).
There I was " nothing on the clock but the makers name, and so low had to stand on the seat to see over the waves" Blah blah
Old phrase " he who pays piper calls tune"
Don't like it tho'. 1 more reason to add to the why I must go list.....
Not many reasons to stay..Lots to go, and getting longer by the FCI.
Old phrase " he who pays piper calls tune"
Don't like it tho'. 1 more reason to add to the why I must go list.....
Not many reasons to stay..Lots to go, and getting longer by the FCI.
Last edited by 145qrh; 17th Jun 2006 at 21:05.
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Hey BE ! 'Alan' !!! don't make me laugh. You appear to be more the company man with your quoted concern for ones colleagues. A real team player and fine upstanding citizen no doubt.
Very constructive post though, keep it up.
p.s. I will have a go at the company in a later post if it makes you feel better though (trouble is, I just can't be bothered to write a post that long).
Very constructive post though, keep it up.
p.s. I will have a go at the company in a later post if it makes you feel better though (trouble is, I just can't be bothered to write a post that long).
Yaw Damper: "Never Leave Home Without It"
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The solution to corruption
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cg...05&nu_doc=2111
Any complaints about the UAE DGCA or EK should be sent to......
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/...en00230036.pdf
The reason why the EK A 340 Joburg landing was a complete **** up is simply because the pilots were not able to make a non precision approach on the longest runway since no ILS was available for that runway ......landing deep and high on speed........lack of basic flyings skills.
The whole system is infected.....unless EK dramatically increases the hours and frequancy of sim training. Two times a year is no longer enough to keep up to speed.
Any complaints about the UAE DGCA or EK should be sent to......
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/...en00230036.pdf
The reason why the EK A 340 Joburg landing was a complete **** up is simply because the pilots were not able to make a non precision approach on the longest runway since no ILS was available for that runway ......landing deep and high on speed........lack of basic flyings skills.
The whole system is infected.....unless EK dramatically increases the hours and frequancy of sim training. Two times a year is no longer enough to keep up to speed.
Last edited by AIMS by IBM; 18th Jun 2006 at 21:58.