DEC's at EK
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B777 upgrade or DEC
I know this question has been around a few months, but I can't find a topic spend on it, and I would first like to have some opinions and rumours before posting it to TCAS's 'rumour buster' (which hasn't been updated for a month now.. no rumours I guess 
)
How will EK get enough Captains on the B777?
I don't have any 'correct' numbers, only go by published lists and staff numbers, so I would ask you guys to correct me...
I reckon every B777 needs about 9 crews to operate.
We currently have (including the last 3 B777-300ER) 23 B777's
203 CPT (including 10 DEC's)
200 F/O (including guys still in training)
For the next years, we'll get 1 B777 per month, ie 12/year, ie 108 Captains needed on B777 per year.
Looking at the staff numbers for the F/O's, out of 200, 61 have been here for less then a year, 30 will be F/O for life. Consider that EVERY guy left is ok for command requirements, will complete the upgrade and no resignations, that means that the pool for suitable commands on B777 will be dry in EXACTLY 1 year from now...
Million dollar question: Where will we get the remaining Captains??
Either we allow F/O's from the Airbus sector to jump to the B777 for commands or we need (read: EK management has another excuse for) DEC's to operate these Boeings.
Would it be possible for an Airbus F/O to jump ship as F/O, thus becoming B777 F/O in order to get the command on B777? Even if they require at leat one year on type before possible command, it would be a very good alternative for guys with less then 2 years in the company, and getting a sure shot at command after 3 years in the company...
My opinion is: let the F/O's do the upgrade on whatever fleet upgrades are available on; if an external DEC without rating can do it, our quality in house F/O's, often with previous Boeing experience, can surely do it..
Comments please...
)How will EK get enough Captains on the B777?
I don't have any 'correct' numbers, only go by published lists and staff numbers, so I would ask you guys to correct me...
I reckon every B777 needs about 9 crews to operate.
We currently have (including the last 3 B777-300ER) 23 B777's
203 CPT (including 10 DEC's)
200 F/O (including guys still in training)
For the next years, we'll get 1 B777 per month, ie 12/year, ie 108 Captains needed on B777 per year.
Looking at the staff numbers for the F/O's, out of 200, 61 have been here for less then a year, 30 will be F/O for life. Consider that EVERY guy left is ok for command requirements, will complete the upgrade and no resignations, that means that the pool for suitable commands on B777 will be dry in EXACTLY 1 year from now...
Million dollar question: Where will we get the remaining Captains??
Either we allow F/O's from the Airbus sector to jump to the B777 for commands or we need (read: EK management has another excuse for) DEC's to operate these Boeings.
Would it be possible for an Airbus F/O to jump ship as F/O, thus becoming B777 F/O in order to get the command on B777? Even if they require at leat one year on type before possible command, it would be a very good alternative for guys with less then 2 years in the company, and getting a sure shot at command after 3 years in the company...
My opinion is: let the F/O's do the upgrade on whatever fleet upgrades are available on; if an external DEC without rating can do it, our quality in house F/O's, often with previous Boeing experience, can surely do it..
Comments please...
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Got to agree Mr8 ,
If the Airbus guys dont get the move or a course date on the ab3 then there will be great losses in the F/O ranks , greater than the patch up job of DECs.................
Better the devil you know and there is quite a few devils out there..... hang on does anybody report anything anymore.........
If the Airbus guys dont get the move or a course date on the ab3 then there will be great losses in the F/O ranks , greater than the patch up job of DECs.................
Better the devil you know and there is quite a few devils out there..... hang on does anybody report anything anymore.........
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For sure EK will go for DEC, too bad for the guys who are here for less than a year, they should have read pprune it was posted a long time ago that it will take much longer than 3 years to command.
Thats what pprune is for actually, to share information.
Thats what pprune is for actually, to share information.
Grandpa Aerotart
I find it fascinating that for an airline who prides itself on attracting the cream....or so all of you keep claiming...that 15% of your F/Os are apparently career F/Os with zero command potential?
So you are now saying the EK recruitment system has been a bit of a lottery?
I know of at least one recruit starting on the 777 soonish who has vast amounts of airline jet command experience and years as a respected TRE/IRE...perhaps he'll be changing seats sooner than he had expected?
So you are now saying the EK recruitment system has been a bit of a lottery?
I know of at least one recruit starting on the 777 soonish who has vast amounts of airline jet command experience and years as a respected TRE/IRE...perhaps he'll be changing seats sooner than he had expected?
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No exact numbers
Well, I mentioned in the topic starter that these numbers are based on staff lists and staff numbers.. These 30 F/O are all F/O's with very low staff numbers, e.i. F/O for life, or cadets which still don't meet the criteria for a command (6000hrs).
Anyhow, with or without these 30 guys, the problem remains.
As for your fellow comming over, if he signed as a F/O, he'll be stuck for at least 18 months in that right seat before being 'Fast-Tracked' into the left seat...
Also heard of a guy being offered DEC when on recruitment here. Although my source told me it was most likeliy for A330, he was not sure that is was not for A310...
MR8
Anyhow, with or without these 30 guys, the problem remains.
As for your fellow comming over, if he signed as a F/O, he'll be stuck for at least 18 months in that right seat before being 'Fast-Tracked' into the left seat...
Also heard of a guy being offered DEC when on recruitment here. Although my source told me it was most likeliy for A330, he was not sure that is was not for A310...
MR8
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EKs LOW AIRBUS VASELINE SUPPLY
OK so whats the situation”?
777 FOs getting upgrades and joined after us. (good luck to you boys, lucky you got the 777).
ADEL insisted that there would not be anyone disadvantaged by the upgrades programs even before the DEC’s came in.
DECs come into the frame, even though some haven’t flown bigger than a 737 and its not widebody or Airbus for those not so observant.
Oh yeah, some of the senior Fos have little chats with them (Morale boosters- CRM-Flt Safety) and they say they only came here for a A380 rating. WHAT?
Rumour buster, more like Morale Blaster,total waste of time and only shows what little backbone any of the high paid help have to stand up to moral issues.
Transition Upgrades. For those on the bus does that mean to leave the airline to go back to our old airline in our old jobs as captains (again) to get our dignity back?
Off to the pharmacy to get more vaseline as the shafting is well beyond the current supply forecast.
CW
777 FOs getting upgrades and joined after us. (good luck to you boys, lucky you got the 777).
ADEL insisted that there would not be anyone disadvantaged by the upgrades programs even before the DEC’s came in.
DECs come into the frame, even though some haven’t flown bigger than a 737 and its not widebody or Airbus for those not so observant.
Oh yeah, some of the senior Fos have little chats with them (Morale boosters- CRM-Flt Safety) and they say they only came here for a A380 rating. WHAT?
Rumour buster, more like Morale Blaster,total waste of time and only shows what little backbone any of the high paid help have to stand up to moral issues.
Transition Upgrades. For those on the bus does that mean to leave the airline to go back to our old airline in our old jobs as captains (again) to get our dignity back?
Off to the pharmacy to get more vaseline as the shafting is well beyond the current supply forecast.
CW
Last edited by critical winge; 18th Jun 2005 at 20:09.
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Think about also the 70 or so B777 rated pilots Etihad require this year alone. I say Rated but that will be difficult to find. They will therefore pull out of the same pot as EK. At the end of it all we are all mercenaries. Who ever will pay the most will get the pilots.
As far as Boeing guys leaping ahead of Airbus guys in the command stakes. You have short memories. Airbus guys were doing the very same to the Boeing guys a couple of years ago, just after they did away with the Transition upgrade. In one or two years the reverse will happen again as the A380 arrives and they need the bodies there.
As far as Boeing guys leaping ahead of Airbus guys in the command stakes. You have short memories. Airbus guys were doing the very same to the Boeing guys a couple of years ago, just after they did away with the Transition upgrade. In one or two years the reverse will happen again as the A380 arrives and they need the bodies there.
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For those who want to join any middle east airline (and not just EK) had better realise from the beginning that, once the employment contract is signed and dated...what you see is what you get, be it F/O or Command straight away.
Upgrades are at the pleasure of the respective company, regardless of past experience.
Like it or lump it, makes no difference.
Always has been, always will be, no matter what is promised afterwards.
And, as many have found out to their dismay, the 'goal posts' are a movin' constantly...also again at the companies pleasure.
Anyone dis-agree?
Don't like it...go elsewhere (after training, of course).
Upgrades are at the pleasure of the respective company, regardless of past experience.
Like it or lump it, makes no difference.
Always has been, always will be, no matter what is promised afterwards.
And, as many have found out to their dismay, the 'goal posts' are a movin' constantly...also again at the companies pleasure.
Anyone dis-agree?
Don't like it...go elsewhere (after training, of course).
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We as a pilot group have got to get the word out that the DECs are not welcome at EK. I know I have said it before but when the word goes out and we back it up with our actions I guarentee that the applications for DECs will dry up and this will only help the FOs cause.
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LHR Rain,
I am not in favour of DECs being employed by the company because I think we have a smashing lot of very capable F/Os who should be upgraded instead.
But following your post regarding local F/Os in the other thread (pilot shortage) I dread to think of the day when your upgrade comes up. Last thing this company needs is someone like you in the left seat.
I fly with the local F/os all the time - a very professional group of people overall, with the odd exception perhaps.
Your comments were out of line, especially since the locals were getting shafted as much as anybody else. (past tense because as far as I know no more DECs are being employed)
I am not in favour of DECs being employed by the company because I think we have a smashing lot of very capable F/Os who should be upgraded instead.
But following your post regarding local F/Os in the other thread (pilot shortage) I dread to think of the day when your upgrade comes up. Last thing this company needs is someone like you in the left seat.
I fly with the local F/os all the time - a very professional group of people overall, with the odd exception perhaps.
Your comments were out of line, especially since the locals were getting shafted as much as anybody else. (past tense because as far as I know no more DECs are being employed)
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EKwife
I don't know where you come from that makes you think that Dubai and EK is so great but wake up! Half the actions that EK employes would be illegal in the first world. If you compare Europe to the middle east it does not even stack up and any attempt to do so only ridicules your intelligence. If EK is so great than why have so many pilots left and the applications dried up? It might be good for you but don't compare me and my country to your third world mentality. By the way the FOs stopped coming when the DECs were announced, not because of my or anyone elses comments. Get it straight.
PICU
I don't disagree with you but my question was why are there so many ex-pats in the middle east and hardly any arabs in Europe? There has to be a reason and I am curious what your reason might be. I have mine and I am sure that you have yours.
I don't know where you come from that makes you think that Dubai and EK is so great but wake up! Half the actions that EK employes would be illegal in the first world. If you compare Europe to the middle east it does not even stack up and any attempt to do so only ridicules your intelligence. If EK is so great than why have so many pilots left and the applications dried up? It might be good for you but don't compare me and my country to your third world mentality. By the way the FOs stopped coming when the DECs were announced, not because of my or anyone elses comments. Get it straight.
PICU
I don't disagree with you but my question was why are there so many ex-pats in the middle east and hardly any arabs in Europe? There has to be a reason and I am curious what your reason might be. I have mine and I am sure that you have yours.
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EK Wife
So I like to look at myself in the mirror and that is the reason for me not being captain? I finally have figured out why I am jerking gear for captains instead of being one. I look too much in the mirror. I just told my girlfriend to take all of our mirrors out of our apartment and I am anxioulsy awaiting my command interview phone call. It should come today and I can't wait!
I can whinge about Dubai and EK just as much as you are allowed to brag about the same. What makes you think that you are right and I am wrong? The same goes for me. I don't know if I am right or not but I do know that a lot of the stuff EK pulls (contract changes, factoring, approvals on the leaves, flight hours, etc etc) would never be tolerated in Europe or any developed country. You can tell the would be applicates about how great you think this place is and I will tell all about what EK does not tell the interviewee in the process and if I am wrong please let us know. You have the same rights that I and everyone else has in the world.
Everyone I know at EK is at the very least dissapointed in the recent changes involving EK. Some have put out CVs and some have even taken the drastic step of leaving which is no small measure to be taken lightly.
By the way I don't have a maid or a gardner. I imagine that where you come from you would have to pay taxes and a real wage to have your luxories here in the sand so enjoy this little bit of heaven you have. Did you give the hired help the raise you talked about?
I guess when I get taller I can have my command. Now I am going to hang from door way to strech myself.
So I like to look at myself in the mirror and that is the reason for me not being captain? I finally have figured out why I am jerking gear for captains instead of being one. I look too much in the mirror. I just told my girlfriend to take all of our mirrors out of our apartment and I am anxioulsy awaiting my command interview phone call. It should come today and I can't wait!
I can whinge about Dubai and EK just as much as you are allowed to brag about the same. What makes you think that you are right and I am wrong? The same goes for me. I don't know if I am right or not but I do know that a lot of the stuff EK pulls (contract changes, factoring, approvals on the leaves, flight hours, etc etc) would never be tolerated in Europe or any developed country. You can tell the would be applicates about how great you think this place is and I will tell all about what EK does not tell the interviewee in the process and if I am wrong please let us know. You have the same rights that I and everyone else has in the world.
Everyone I know at EK is at the very least dissapointed in the recent changes involving EK. Some have put out CVs and some have even taken the drastic step of leaving which is no small measure to be taken lightly.
By the way I don't have a maid or a gardner. I imagine that where you come from you would have to pay taxes and a real wage to have your luxories here in the sand so enjoy this little bit of heaven you have. Did you give the hired help the raise you talked about?
I guess when I get taller I can have my command. Now I am going to hang from door way to strech myself.
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So Funny what would an EK Wife no about how ****** up a job it is , and if you are an F/o with kids you probably cant afford a maid.
The best thing is the man can cancel his wifes visa without reason here so you can be sent home on a moments notice.....
The best thing is the man can cancel his wifes visa without reason here so you can be sent home on a moments notice.....
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Having read this thread i have to say that EKwife is talking sense, we do need the F/O's to file the ranks, it's where they come from bothers me!
This airline has potential to be a great airline and all it needs is for the "management" to pull their overpaid, over bonused heads out of the sand and start to use the the talented in house work force we have.
As we all know there is a wealth of experience sitting in the right seats of our aircfaft, my message to the "management" is........
"WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE" and "BLOODY WELL USE IT".
This airline has potential to be a great airline and all it needs is for the "management" to pull their overpaid, over bonused heads out of the sand and start to use the the talented in house work force we have.
As we all know there is a wealth of experience sitting in the right seats of our aircfaft, my message to the "management" is........
"WAKE UP SMELL THE COFFEE" and "BLOODY WELL USE IT".
I think you are right we need lots more great F/Os but they are worried . I have a friend offered a job here he went to Qatar instead , as a captain mind you. Also heard Qatar may look at Ek F/os who may be able to go in as Decs , but you have to resign first ,call them.
At least they r trying to do the right thing over at Qr knowing they have many A/C to crew.....
With the known orders on the 777 the list of commands should be out at least 1 year ahead of time including transitions...
For EK to save a few pennies now on training they will pay a large penalty in the long term............! look out....
At least they r trying to do the right thing over at Qr knowing they have many A/C to crew.....
With the known orders on the 777 the list of commands should be out at least 1 year ahead of time including transitions...
For EK to save a few pennies now on training they will pay a large penalty in the long term............! look out....
I think one of the best recruiting tools EK has is the word of mouth from those employed here. It was not that long ago that never a bad word about this company was posted here. Those were the times of huge amounts of applications for the job.
Well I think the fellas are still telling their mates that are interested in joining, all about the company. It is not our fault that the information is not as good as it once was. I am sure if things start to improve here the applicates will return.
So even though it might be in your own short term interest to polish up the package here to get other suckers in, I am not sure it will help for the longer term. But it will cause a even lower moral in the company, as these new joiners find out what it is really like.
So EKwife, I am not too sure I do like your tactic of only telling the rosey picture to ensure the upgrade of EKhusband. Seems very selfish really. Instead I think we should just stay with the facts. For some the bad bits of the package over here outway the good bits, for others its the other way around. Just stay with the facts and let people make an informed decision.
Don
Well I think the fellas are still telling their mates that are interested in joining, all about the company. It is not our fault that the information is not as good as it once was. I am sure if things start to improve here the applicates will return.
So even though it might be in your own short term interest to polish up the package here to get other suckers in, I am not sure it will help for the longer term. But it will cause a even lower moral in the company, as these new joiners find out what it is really like.
So EKwife, I am not too sure I do like your tactic of only telling the rosey picture to ensure the upgrade of EKhusband. Seems very selfish really. Instead I think we should just stay with the facts. For some the bad bits of the package over here outway the good bits, for others its the other way around. Just stay with the facts and let people make an informed decision.
Don
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The more potential FOs LHRrain scares away with his personal views, the more EK has to paid to change their minds again...
Point being that, that with all these new aircraft coming over the next few years, drivers will have to come from somewhere. EK now has to share with the other Gulf airlines.
Either you look for DEC and 2000 Hr FOs or 8000 Hr FOs with command potential. DECs and old FOs is an explosive combination.
Expats will follow the money trail. If the T&Cs are better in Togo tomorrow, thats where people will go. We are the corporate mercenaries. And so what....
I have been an expat for 20 years, all around the world. The key is not to compare. Dubai is not Europe, and Europe is not Dubai. Find your peace or find another airline, because here you cant influence the conditions.
Point being that, that with all these new aircraft coming over the next few years, drivers will have to come from somewhere. EK now has to share with the other Gulf airlines.
Either you look for DEC and 2000 Hr FOs or 8000 Hr FOs with command potential. DECs and old FOs is an explosive combination.
Expats will follow the money trail. If the T&Cs are better in Togo tomorrow, thats where people will go. We are the corporate mercenaries. And so what....
I have been an expat for 20 years, all around the world. The key is not to compare. Dubai is not Europe, and Europe is not Dubai. Find your peace or find another airline, because here you cant influence the conditions.