DEC's at EK

[Shake]

EKs expansion has been ongoing for several years. If they were planning 100, then 150 and now over 200 aircraft where then were the plans to support it? Over the same period the training system lost trainers who resigned whilst others lost thier jobs due to 'surplus requirements'. How then was the expansion going to cope with the need for eventually 2000+ pilots if it was not geared for the recruitment and training of the numbers needed? Either the plan was always to resort to DECs (thus the job was misrepresented in recruitment and at interview) or the training system has been and continues to be completely mismanaged.

There is no doubt in my mind that the need for DECs could have been mitigated by much better long term management. Even now there is a chance to review the situation and construct a longer term plan to achieve the projected expansion before it falls disasterously off of the rails.

We need to: Recruit longer term F/Os with less experience who want to gain wide-body, long haul experience and review the current command criteria to maximise those who are capable of command from within. Reconsider transition courses to put pilots where they are needed and use the flex left to upgrade more F/Os. Then and only then consider DECs as a last resort to make up the short fall.

[mini cooper]

SOP

I seem to remember being told during training:

If you have a problem use all available resources to remedy the situation

Problem: Not enough pilots

Solution: Use the ones you've got for upgrade (who cares what type its on, these days one big jet is very much like another big jet!),this will lead to an increase of morale all round, people will think better of EK and more people will view it as a good prospect for a career and hence more people will apply.

How's that for logic - now I will watch as somebody tells me it is a useless idea!!



PS to add some icing give everyone 10 days off a month minimum and give better allowances down route (rather than cutting allowances). Everyone will be more rested and I am sure that the cabin crew especially having extra days off will want to go to work to get the allowances, hence less sick days and less congestion at the clinic, and more crew wanting to go to work!!

[Shake]

ekwife: It was the other stuff that caused such a reaction. You put the me into mercenary

[sluggums]

Mini cooper,

Absolutely correct, your suggestions are exactly what should done.

[Shake]

You still don't get it do you. EK are NOT recruiting your mates who could do with the job but advertising for 'experienced' crews with the promise (inferred and broken) of upgrades. When they do change the criteria your posts may become relevant. Until then the posts you criticise generally warn those who are seeking a career progression that EK has turned out for some a career regression, your hubby excluded ofcourse.

[Payscale]

LHR Rain

The guyes on the A330 upgrade course today, have been here 3 years and 4 months. How many pilots can there be between you and them? I think there will be 2 more upgrade courses this year. Better start studying

[LHR Rain]

Lady when will you get it? You have absoultely no clue about the aviation industry. If you want qualified FOs with a real training background they are not going to come because of what you and your husband did here at EK. Why would any qualified and talented pilot come here and have to spin their wheels and in a sense go backwards on the seniority list while they watch marginal DECs come and take their seats? I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

How would you feel Ek Wife if your husband had the DEC requirement and had been here 2 years or so still an f/o after being promised a fasttrack .
After reporting the incompetence of some of these individuals it would appear my command is some 4-5 years from doj so i was told , and im not allowed to fly the 777, then somebody such as your husband comes here and gets an instant command while im rotting in the right seat , i have friends on the 777 who are fastracking in 18 months who started before me, why should i be happy?

[tic]

I sympathise with the F/O's at EK, but don't believe any of you should berate EKWIFE for her opinions. What would you do in the same circumstances, for her and her husband??? Say no, sorry I can't come in as a DEC, coz I might upset a few people? Lets get real. No-one in his right mind would do that, if you were offered it. You or I would do exactly the same thing. To me, hats off to them, they were lucky, and there at the right time, and I'm sure, not the only ones. Fact is, too many aeroplanes, and not enough pilots, and it's going to get worse, as the new aircraft arrive.You,( EK ),need Capt's, RIGHT NOW!!!!!!. Takes too long to train qualified F/O's. Management says, ' Recruit DEC's, ( it's cheaper), Done job. It's not right, we all know it, but as you ' keep discovering', the goal-posts move all the time. In all honesty, are any airlines , really that different?

My solution to all of you, who are constantly whingeing. Get together and go speak your mind. Enough people doing it can change things. You are a powerful body,provided you stick together. Too scared are you? I think so, hence Pprune, which is supposed to be a rumour network, instead we have a slanging match.
tic

[turtleneck]

with all these logical remedies for the pilot shortage and upgrade-problem, there's one question bragging me constantly:
allthough ek managers have no hr skills whatsoever, they cannot be total no brainers. now tell me why on earth don't they follow the apparently easy, quickly applicable, certainly successful and less costly on the long run advices published here??
i admit, i have no clue.
ttn

[330 Man]

LHR rain,
Sorry bud but I have to get into the mix after your last post.
Although true SOME of the DEC's fall into your profile listed in your last post, most do not.

Quote:
"I don't know if your husband is qualifed or not but if he fits the DEC profile he never flew a widebody and never flew outside of Europe but your situation may differ. Every DEC I flew with meets the critera metioned above."

I can tell you that of the 3 DEC's from my former company flying with EK on the 330/777, 2 have wide body time and are both former TRE's, one on the 330 and one on the 767, and each have over 20,000 hours. The one with no wide body time has over 16,000 hours and is a former TRE on the 320 and 737.

Where in your above profile do the former Cathay 340 Captains rate, or the former Senior TRE on the 340 from Swiss, or the former 330 Captains from Air Lingus, or the 747 Captains from the various cargo companies who are now here? I will grant you that some of the DEC's do not come close to meeting the experience level of some of our current F/O's, whose jobs they have taken. Those DEC's should not have been hired. PERIOD

But you can not make a blanket statement like yours regarding every DEC. It is not true, and not fair. You would have taken a DEC job with EK in a heart beat if you qualified. Do not expect any of us to believe otherwise.

As for EK wife, if she is like my wife who has been in this business with me for 20 years, she probably knows more than you think. To tell her she does not have a clue about this industry is rather crass on your part. I received a yellow card last month from 4HP, perhaps is your turn. You need to chill!

Regards,

330 Man

[heywood u bleume]

Mensaboy,

I presume your name is meant ironically. If you hire a DEC you have to hire an FO to complement him....correct. If you upgrade an FO to Captain you have to hire another FO to replace him.... and an FO to complement him as with the DEC. The accountants know their stuff sadly. I'm on your side but the numbers aren't.

HUB

[LHR Rain]

330 Man

You might be right that some of the US Air pilots have flown widebody in their careers. However I believe that most if not all of the US Air DECs that came to EK at the time of joining were not on widebodies because of the redundancies. I even flew with a US Air guy that had never been outside of the US and never ever been on a widebody. Believe me when I tell you that he was very happy to be at EK. I told him to cool his jets.
I will have to stand correted on the CX and Aer Lingus guys. Yellow card for me.
Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

[jumbo1]

LHR RAIN

Your wife might have some common sense but EK Wife has none with her comments. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion but so am I and she is in la la land and probably drunk to boot.

Chap, I think this is a little offsides. I agree with almost all the posts being made about DEC's. Crazy idea! The only fault EKWIFE has is that she has not been at EK long enough to know how things work here. Give her 2 months......

Let's keep from the personal comments and keep to the whingeing, it's so much more fun

Keep discovering..................
J1

[mig21bis]

What involves in an F/O to Captain Upgrade in Emirates. You have to do an initial course or a shorter transition course????
How many days of ground and sim???

[ekwife]

It's a bit sad really that one can't post anything without it being ripped to pieces and twisted to suit!

First of all I was accused of being "selfish" by donpizmeov because he thought I was looking for a quick upgrade for my husband - doesn't that prove that my intentions were only to help the situation fo FOs looking to upgrade?

Then when I said my husband was a DEC - well - no need to say more!

The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period" (how long is the honeymoon period by the way?) have "third world mentalities", etc, etc and they get ripped to shreds in seconds.

This is the reason that the happy, contented people don't post - it's just not worth it!

I hope I have learned my lesson and when I read some of the tripe that gets posted here, I can be, like my husband, and laugh it off and not get involved again.

[Can't think of a name]

Trimotor is right: the majority usually are silent. I don't post often, but some stuff on this thread makes me feel like injecting a few words into the forum.

EKWIFE - Thank you for your input in this thread, it is not only healthy for people to hear a different perspective on a subject (whether one agrees with the view or not), but it is a necesary part of any balanced discussion.

MENSA & ALLURU (and some others whose names escape me) - Your posts have been relevant, eloquent, and objective. Well done! Not an easy thing to do with emotion running so rampant in a thread.

Almost every post on this thread has relevance and meaning to the subject, and most cetainly does to the person writing the post! The only request I would make is to those who are so quick to cut down the views of others.

If you feel that strongly about something it is your responsibility to do what you can as an individual to try and change it. Sitting here and saying "what's the point, it won't change anything" or "I can't; it'll have an adverse affect on my upgrade" are excuses...nothing more.

You don't have to go into the office with guns blazing and fists banging on any horizontal surface. Doing that (and people do!) achieves nothing, other than "changing nothing", and possibly having an "adverse affect on your upgrade".

Putting together a structured, well thought out, accurate case, and presenting it to AS personally is the ONLY way you can have an effect on policy. (Depending on the depth of your feeling and the size of your Kahunas, you may want to go higher, but I would do that only after you receive no response from AS.....i.e. respect the chain of command and give each person in it a chance to do their job before going over their heads)

Whether the policy you seek to change is rostering related, upgrade related, housing, education or anything else related, you MUST put forward a balanced case , with evidence, and without emotion.

I've said this before on a previous thread. I know one person doing it will make little or no difference, but 100, 200, or more pilots doing it WILL make a difference. And if it doesn't, you can look in the mirror and know that you did what you could. I guarantee you will feel better about yourself for the experience, and you might even find your views changing once you have to justify them with evidence and sound argument.

Remember, the way to win an argument/discussion is to change the other person's point of view to your own, or at least make them WANT to see your point of view. You can ONLY do that by understanding the other person's point of view to start with, and where it comes from.

I have my opinions about this subject, as does any pilot (and their families), but the reality of any expat job is that when the bag of s&^&t weighs more than the bag of gold, it is definitely time to revisit your reason for staying. No place is perfect: there will always be that bag of s&^&t to balance the bag of gold. I think the secret is to always, somehow, keep the scales tilted toward the bag of gold, and sometimes the quickest and easiest way to do that is to find a way to lighten the bag of s&^&t.

I'll just rush off now and put my kevlar t-shirt on before the replies roll in!

Cheers to all.......and remember...you woke up today...a lot of others didn't.

CTOAN

[Jack D]

In my humble opinion most of the DEC,s are excellent , well

experienced with very strong aviation backgrounds. I don,t

know where these narrow body guys are , they may be out there

but in the minority I would suggest. Actually at the risk of

sounding like a sycophant I think most of them are better than

the home grown variety, at least that,s what some of my

colleagues think and I agree. A question of background and

training I suppose. Not to say the "normal" guys are poor

they are not on the whole .

As for the policy of recruiting DEC,s that,s another matter but

one thing is for certain those F/O,s who think they have an equal

amount of experience as MOST of these DEC,s simply do not,

neither do Most of the EK captains , that,s a fact . I am

sorry we may have to wait a bit longer for our upgrades and hope

that we won,t but at least we can learn from some of these

guys if we want to listen.

[Mistah Kurtz]

Afraid you do sound like a sycophant, a very mixed bag

[Jack D]

Just separating fact from fiction , doesn,t mean I like the policy though.

Yours Sycophantically,

Jack